Iterative Natural Attacks

[JaronK]

Somewhere I got the impression that you can't make iterative attacks with natural weapons. Now I can't find that rule. It's coming up because in an upcoming campaign I've got a pair of 9HD dire wolves, who should have a BAB greater than +5, and as such could make two bite attacks if that's allowed... but I'm not sure it is. Anyone know?

JaronK

[Dhavaer]

I think it's in the description of Natural Attacks in the SRD/PHB.

[cupkeyk]

From the SRD

Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

[JaronK]

Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay, those wolves will need Superior Unarmed Strike as soon as possible!

[Ramza00]

Note you can't under normal rules.

If you have access to the draconomicon there is a great feat called Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike.

[Person_Man]

Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike. Feats from the Draconomicon. They give you iterative attacks with Natural Weapons.

[Ramza00]

Note Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike requires your type to be:aberration, dragon, elemental, magical beast, or plant type.

Elan with the Draconic Template for claws is the easiest way if I remember. Half Dragon with LA buyback also works.

[Dhavaer]

Note Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike requires your type to be:aberration, dragon, elemental, magical beast, or plant type.

Elan with the Draconic Template for claws is the easiest way if I remember. Half Dragon with LA buyback also works.

Elan Psychic Warrior is just as easy. Of course, it's also the lead in to the King of Smack.

[Ramza00]

Elan Psychic Warrior is just as easy. Of course, it's also the lead in to the King of Smack.

Yes but you can't qualify for a feat with a spell which has a temporary duration. Thus you need the draconic template or some other ways to get claws. Once you have claws then manifest claws of the vampire and claws of the beast, and all the king of smack jazz.

[JaronK]

Well, these wolves are awakened, so that's perfect. Sadly, I lack Dragonomicron, and I don't think Crystal Keep has those. If a PM of the requirements of those feats were to end up in my box, that would sure be nice...

JaronK

[Khantalas]

Yes but you can't qualify for a feat with a spell which has a temporary duration. Thus you need the draconic template or some other ways to get claws. Once you have claws then manifest claws of the vampire and claws of the beast, and all the king of smack jazz.

Actually, if your DM is very insane, you can technically do that. You simply have to find a way to be under the effects of the power the entire time you spend leveling up. When you gain the feat, dismiss the power, whatever, and lose its effects, losing the benefits of the feat along with it. However, whenever you manifest one of those powers, you gain the benefits of the feat, meeting the prerequisites again. This was even supported by Wizards... somewhere in a FAQ or something, about another similar situation.

However, no sane DM would let someone do that.

[Yuki Akuma]

Does Incarnate work with natural-attack-granting powers?

[Dhavaer]

However, no sane DM would let someone do that.

Actually, I've been allowed to take a feat before I met the pre-reqs, gaining no benefits but all penalties (it gave -2 Wisdom, nightmares and made you dress in black) until I qualified.

I'm fairly sure the DM was sane.

[hewhosaysfish]

it gave -2 Wisdom, nightmares and made you dress in black

I didn't know WoTC had released the Book of Emo Angst.
Does it have any nice PrCs for Vampire PCs and dual-scimitar-wieliding drow?


Seriously, though. What feat does that?

[Dhavaer]

I didn't know WoTC had released the Book of Emo Angst.
Does it have any nice PrCs for Vampire PCs and dual-scimitar-wieliding drow?


Seriously, though. What feat does that?

Corrupt Arcane Studies, from Ghostwalk. The benefit boosts spell DCs. The nightmares are actually extremely debilitating for Wizards.

[Aximili]

Actually, if your DM is very insane, you can technically do that. You simply have to find a way to be under the effects of the power the entire time you spend leveling up. When you gain the feat, dismiss the power, whatever, and lose its effects, losing the benefits of the feat along with it. However, whenever you manifest one of those powers, you gain the benefits of the feat, meeting the prerequisites again. This was even supported by Wizards... somewhere in a FAQ or something, about another similar situation.

However, no sane DM would let someone do that.

Actually, if the guy manages to spend 16hours a day with the claws active, he's got as much of chance to train rapidstrike as the archer would have to train Rapidshot or any other feat for that matter.

I'm not saying it's balanced, but it's perfectly logical.

[Fax Celestis]

Corrupt Arcane Studies, from Ghostwalk. The benefit boosts spell DCs. The nightmares are actually extremely debilitating for Wizards.

Ghostwalk is a fun book, especially if you are a sorceror and grab Sherem-Lar and Sherezem-Lar Sorcery.

"Ha-ha! My Cha is treated as 4 points higher for the purposes of determining saves and bonus spells! Victory is mine!"

EDIT: I just wish I wasn't the only DM that used it.

[AtomicKitKat]

Just remember that you need "paired" attacks, like "left claw+right claw" to qualify for (Improved)Rapidstrike. It also doesn't state which claw makes what attack, so if you decided to imbue your claws(for whatever bizzare reason) with separate enchantments, or if you have 2 grafts granting similar attacks(eg. Both give "Claw attack" but with different poisons/bonuses/damage dice), you presumably get to choose on each attack(since you may need to count the Strength/Dexterity bonus to attack roll only when using that particular arm). Sadly, the wording is ambiguous for creatures with more than 2 of any one attack(they foolishly chose Dragons, who can only use it on their wings and claws once each). My guess would be, for example:

8 headed Hydra-like beast(Presume nothing applies except that it has 8 heads with 1 bite each). 8 Bites
8hH with I.Rapidstrike. 8 Bites+1 set iteratives
8hH with I.Rapidstrike*4("Logical" maximum. 8 Bites+4 sets iteratives.
8hH with I.Rapidstrike*8(Theoretical, but insane "No sane GM would ever allow it!" maximum. For the record, I don't consider myself sane. Technically, there are 36 possible "pairs" of heads, but there's a caveat that you can get no more than 4 iterative attacks per round per natural weapon) 8 Bites+8 sets iteratives. Note also that you will need 16 feats just to get that. :P

[Ramza00]

Improved Rapidstrike says you can never get more than four extra attacks with that natural weapon.

Thus a 8 headed hydra only gets 4 extra attacks.

Though a medium size or larger dragon can take improved rapidstrike twice (once for wings once for claws) and get a total of 8 extra attacks.

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That said there is little that is more terrifying than going after a wizard who "experiments with animals." Once you arrive you learn he has a couple 12 headed hydras who have the half-dragon template applied to them. The half dragon template has been applied to them, and the hydras have taken levels of Kensai (there intelligence is now high enough for class levels). They also use charge and flyby attack.

Damn mad genius wizards who experiments with monsters. You have to deal with a wizard and four flying hydras who can move 80 feet a round in an enclosed space.

[Fax Celestis]

Improved Rapidstrike says you can never get more than four extra attacks with that natural weapon.

Thus a 8 headed hydra only gets 4 extra attacks.

Though a medium size or larger dragon can take improved rapidstrike twice (once for wings once for claws) and get a total of 8 extra attacks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

That said there is little that is more terrifying than going after a wizard who "experiments with animals." Once you arrive you learn he has a couple 12 headed hydras who have the half-dragon template applied to them. The half dragon template has been applied to them, and the hydras have taken levels of Kensai (there intelligence is now high enough for class levels). They also use charge and flyby attack.

Damn mad genius wizards who experiments with monsters. You have to deal with a wizard and four flying hydras who can move 80 feet a round in an enclosed space.

Make them dracolich half-dragon 12-headed pyrohydra Kensais for extra death and manatees.

[Ramza00]

Make it a black half dragon and its immune to acid. Thus it can regrow heads but they can't be severed permanently (since its immune to cold, fire, and acid).

[Indon]

So, question regarding the topic:

Do PC's get additional attacks with natural weapons if their class levels allow it? I imagine not, but that 'creatures' wording kinda muddies things.

[oriong]

If you mean attacks from high base attack bonuses then no. PCs are 'creatures' too.

If there were some other ability that allowed it then possibly.

[Dhavaer]

Ghostwalk is a fun book, especially if you are a sorceror and grab Sherem-Lar and Sherezem-Lar Sorcery.

"Ha-ha! My Cha is treated as 4 points higher for the purposes of determining saves and bonus spells! Victory is mine!"

EDIT: I just wish I wasn't the only DM that used it.

I have those, too. My character's appearance is defined by her feats to a remarkable degree. Green eyes, female, human, must wear black.

[Ramza00]

So, question regarding the topic:

Do PC's get additional attacks with natural weapons if their class levels allow it? I imagine not, but that 'creatures' wording kinda muddies things.

Monsters and PCs are treated the same with how attacks and natural attacks work.

You got two options. Attack with your natural weapon as your primary weapon, no AB penalties for your natural attacks.

Or attack with your natural weapons as secondary weapons, but these attacks are at a -5 penalty.

For example I took the deepspawned feat with a lvl 11 fighter. Deepspawn gives me two tentacle attacks.

I can full attack with my greatsword at +11/+6/+1 and my two natural tentacle attacks at +6
or
I can full attack with my two tentacles at +11 and nothing else.

[Person_Man]

Note Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike requires your type to be:aberration, dragon, elemental, magical beast, or plant type.

Elan with the Draconic Template for claws is the easiest way if I remember. Half Dragon with LA buyback also works.

You can also be a Dragonwrought Kobold (Races of the Dragon).

If you use the online variant, they even come with claw attacks, and you can use feats to give them a tail attack, bite attack, tentacle attacks, and probably others I don't know off the top of my head. While their base damage will suck, remember that with Improved Multiattack you get no to-hit penalty, and that Power Attack applies to all natural attacks.

[Stephen_E]

Interestingly enough when a Druid's Animal Companion gains Multiattack, if it doesn't meet the prereq 3+ attacks it instead gets an iterative attack with it's primary natural attack (at trhe normal -5). Given that it's not much of a stretch to simply rule that creatures with a single natural attack can take Multiattack multiple times, each time gaining an additional itterative attack at an additional -5, with the prereq that you must have sufficient BAB to always have +1 BAB for the worst attack (as per weapon itterative attacks).

Stephen