D20 Firearms rules suck

[alchemy.freak]

I am probably not the only one who faces the issue of the d20 modern firearms rules sucking, but i have a remedy but it is a little complicated, if i some people want to know my house rules on this reply to this thread and i will tell you more

[Thantos]

Sure that sounds good. Have you read the issue of dragon, #321, that covers older firearms in regular D&D.

[alchemy.freak]

I haven't read that issue, but there are rules for flint lock weapons in the DMG 3.5 edition, there are also rules in d20 past that can be adapted for d&d.

Anyways, i decided that the d20 firearms rules needed a little altering for a few reasons, first off according to their rules large .45 calibre hand guns deal the same ammount of damage as the much smaller 9mm guns. in real life of course the difference between these guns is quite noticeable. also shotguns are underpowered in d20 and often not worth using when a rifle can deal the same damage at a greater range.

After recieving many complaints from my players, (one of which is a gun fanatic) I did a little redesign on the rules, now certain weapons deal more damage according to their calibre. look for the calibre of your weapon on this table, next to it is the damage it deals.

HANDGUNS/ SUBMACHINEGUNS

.22 LR, .25 ACP : 2d4 ballistic

.32 ACP, .380 ACP, 9mm kurtz & 9mm makarov: 1d4+1d6 ballistic

9mm Luger/Parabellum, .38 special, 10mm auto, .40 S&W: 2d6 ballistic

.45 ACP, .357 Magnum: 1d6+1d8 ballistic

.44 Magnum, .50 AE, 5.7mm SS190, 4.6mm MP7: 2d8 ballistic

RIFLE

5.56mm NATO, 5.45mmR, 9x39mm: 2d8 ballistic

7.62x39mmR , 6.5mm Grendel: 1d8+1d10 ballistic

7.62mm NATO, 7.62x54mmR: 2d10 ballistic

.338 Laupa Magnum, .300 Winchecter Magnum: 1d10+1d12 ballistic

.50 BMG, .50 Beowulf, 12.7mm: 2d12 ballistic#

# these are anti material rounds, within the first range incriment do not reduce damage when attacking objects as other fire arms do

SHOTGUN

12-guage: 2d8 Ballistic*

10-guage: 2d10 Ballistic*

18-guage: 2d6 Ballistic*

*within 10 feet shotguns deal double damage and do not have damage reduced when attacking objects as other firearms do.

this list is by no means exhaustive, post if you need rules on unusual calibres

these are my current house rules. post if there are any questions or problems.

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah. Tell me about these.

[That Lanky Bugger]

I find the reasoning behind the relatively similar damage sound, although I agree that the weapons are just a little TOO similar.

For example, the critical hits for certain guns should be altered. A shotgun might have a higher critical threat range (ie 19-20/x2) while a hunting rifle might have a higher critical multiplier (ie 20/x3). I've got a list which is similar to this at home... When I get the chance I might post it later tonight.

[Closet_Skeleton]

What do you mean 1d4d6? You roll a d4 and then roll that many d6? That's too complicated, complex needs to be as smooth and simple as it can be or it won't end.

[Fax Celestis]

See, I was thinking he meant 1d4 + 1d6 for damage, instead of 2d6 or 2d4.

[heretic]

I hate that you can reload a musket in six seconds. I also hate that plate mail will stop musketballs.

I sextuple reload times, allowing a feat that speeds it up. I also make them ranged touch attacks and increase damage.

[alchemy.freak]

Apologies i did mean 1d4+1d6 for damage, not 1d4 d6's sorry, and Fax_celestis, what do you mean by your second post.

for muskets in my d&d games i do increase reload times, but you can give them a magical ability to decrease it. i also make it reduce nonmagical armor bonuses because real muskets were able to defeat the conventional armor of the day, and besides with such an extreme loading time, you want to make it worth it. i would not go so far as to make it a ranged touch attack as this makes it too easy to hit large creatures like dragons, i just cut the armor or natural armor bonus in half, if it isn't magical.

[Matthew]

Strength Ratings (that grant a Strength AB as an alternative to a Dexterity AB) for Guns are my preferred aproach. Keeps things relatively neat.

[alchemy.freak]

I forgot to mention how to make my rules work in certain situations. like double tap and three round burst.

in the case of double tap (normally you add one dice of extra tamage) you add the first dice to the extra damage e.g. with a .380 ACP double tap deals d4+d6+d4, use the same rules for explosive rounds

for three round burst (normally add 2 dice of extra damage) add the first and then the second dice. e.g. for a .45 ACP weapon you would add d6+d8+d6+d8

I realize that it may seem like common sense, but i just wanted to spell it out, this was probably the first problem I ran into when i decided that the rules had to be changed.

P.S. for all you stargate fans out there (and i know you are out there) i ruled that the FN P90 is a medium weapon because the grip on the P90 was actually designed for one handed firing. it may make the P90 seem like an overpowered (see also"cheap") weapon , but that is what it like in real life

[IncredibleGeek]

Only problem with the P90: It's designed to defeat body armor. Its rounds tend to pass straight through targets at close range. I don't know the d20 firearms system, but how does it handle armor?

To an unarmored opponent, a single .45 ACP round would do more damage than a single 5.7mm SS190 round.

[soylentplaid]

I would like to maybe address the "full auto" rules in d20. Spray the target with rounds, takes up ten bullets and the max damage is the same as taking a single shot and using one bullet? Horsepuckey! Bullplop! So it's an area attack, but what if I want to shoot one fool punk up full of lead?

[J_Muller]

Hmm... these are good, but putting a 9mm Luger and a 10mm Auto in the same damage category isn't exactly so realistic. For that matter, 5.56 NATO rounds do more damage to human flesh than a 7.62 Warsaw Pact round does.

[IncredibleGeek]

Well, it's hard to differentiate between 9mm and 10mm without a much more complicated system. Rolling dice to determine Hit Points lost when shot is hardly realistic anyways.

Though what you could do is "improve" the round slightly, e.g.

9mm Para: 2d6
10mm S&W: 2d6+1

...Or something like that.

Also, (at least, here in the States), 20-gauge is far more common than 18. Can't speak for the rest of the world, though.

[magic8BALL]

Also... remember that in automatic weapons, some of the energy from the blast is used to chamber the next round. I can't think of too many examples listed above where there should be a change to damage (not too fanatical about firearms...), but it is somthing o keep in mind.

On a slight diversion, I dislike how a 12.7mm round is only dealing a mere 2d12 damage. You you need to empty a clip into anyone 5th level or higher to down them... how do snipers stand a chance?

Also, (and this will be tied into the above nicely, do read on...) I for one get confused when there are about 50 different caliber types. It's a fanasy setting, so why not just have 3 caliber types (small medium and large) wich determine base damge, coupled with three different barrel lengths (short, medium, and long) wich dertermine range increments, and three fireing speeds (single, semiauto and automatic)?

I present a simple version of firearms for those who cannot tell the difference between a .45 ACP and a .375 Magnum:

{table=head]Type|Size|Caliber|Damage|Rate[br]of Fire|Range[br]Inc|Example
Pistols
semiauto|Sm|Sm|2d6|S|30 ft|9mm Glock 17
semiauto|Sm|Med|2d8|S|40 ft|Desert Eagle
machine|Med|Sm|2d6|A|30 ft|Ingram MAC 10
revolver|Sm|Med|3d6|1|40 ft|.375 Python
Sub Machine Guns
covert|Med|Sm|4d6|A|40 ft|MP5K
standard|Lrg|Sm|4d6|A|50 ft|MP5
overt|Lrg|Med|4d8|A|50 ft|ES-C90
Riffles
automatic|Lrg|Med|4d8|A|60 ft|M4A1 Carbine
semiauto|Lrg|Lrg|4d10|S|70 ft|Kreig 550
bolt action|Lrg|Lrg|4d12|1|80 ft|Artic Warfare Magnum
Shotguns
pump action|Lrg|BS|18d3*|S|20 ft*
automatic|Lrg|BS|18d2*|A|20 ft*
double barrel|Lrg|BS|18d3*|1**|30 ft*
Saw off|Med|BS|18d3*|1**|10 ft
[/table]
*Shotguns deal damage in a cone, as below. Each square accross repesents one range increment. The number in the squares repesent how many dice to roll.
**A double barrel shot gun, and a saw off shot gun may fire two cartridges at once, provided there are two cartridges in the weapon.

{table=head]Range[br]Inc|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th|10th
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|1/2*
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|1|1
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|1|1|1
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|1|1|1|1
-|-|-|-|-|-|1|1|1|1|1
-|-|-|-|-|1|1|1|1|1|1
-|-|-|-|1|1|1|1|1|1|1
-|-|-|2|2|2|2|1|1|1|1
-|-|4|4|3|3|2|2|2|1|1
Shooter|18|10|6|6|4|4|4|2|2|1
-|-|4|4|3|3|2|2|2|1|1
-|-|-|2|2|2|2|1|1|1|1
-|-|-|-|1|1|1|1|1|1|1
-|-|-|-|-|1|1|1|1|1|1
-|-|-|-|-|-|1|1|1|1|1
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|1|1|1|1
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|1|1|1
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|1|1
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|1/2*[/table]
*50% chance of one dice of damage.

Of cause, this relies on there not actually being a Smith & Wesson company, as all the firearms will be completely ficticious. This gets around the "but in RL, gun X has more mussle energy then gun Y", as neither gun X or Y are in the campaign. Also, at 4d12, a snipers riffle should take down all bar the toughest targets in a single shot.

If nothing else, I think my version of how a shotguns blast works is better than whats presented in the d20 modern book.[/rant]

[J_Muller]

Realistically, the Desert Eagle should do the same damage as the .357 (I assume this is what you meant by .375) since the smallest caliber you can get a Desert Eagle in is .357 magnum.

[ilovefire]

I've just got one pet peeve with d20 modern guns. Well, two, but you've allready solved one.

How do you handle special shotgun ammo? I mean, beehive rounds, master key rounds, dragon's breath...

[J_Muller]

Flechette (beehive) rounds are actually pretty easy--since they're designed for accuracy, they should work without the spread pattern, just like regular rifles (perhaps an extra -1 to hit with every range category on top of the regular stuff).

[magic8BALL]

Realistically, the Desert Eagle should do the same damage as the .357 (I assume this is what you meant by .375) since the smallest caliber you can get a Desert Eagle in is .357 magnum.

Yes that is what I meant, and realistically dosnt count, as these are ficticious firearms. I justify my examples with different damages by saying that the semiautomatic firearm uses some of the enery to be imparted to the round by loading the next.

As for specialist shotgun slugs:

well, I'd call a solid slug 4d12, 20ft rang inc. with standard rules for aiming.

Um... is dragons brath like a small charge inside each pellet? If so, increase the die size (d3's to d4's, d2's to d3's).

Beehive? Master Key? No idea. What are they? Im not a gun expert, I just call it as I see it.

[Tor the Fallen]

Snipers should auto critical, with rifles that do x4, if given enough time to study their target.

I feel that the .22 LR ammo does too much damage. 2d4 is a heap, especially in a setting where falchions regularly dish that to people's faces. .22s are notorious for bouncing of bones, being stopped by foreheads, etc. Perhaps increase their threat range, and drop them to 1d6, or 2d3.

[magic8BALL]

...yeah, but falchions also have 1 1/2 str in behind the 2d4 they dish out, and as you point out, have a heaps better threat range. Perhaps a "miss" with the .22 LR is the round bouncing off the targets sternum... thats flavourful if anything!

[Tor the Fallen]

...yeah, but falchions also have 1 1/2 str in behind the 2d4 they dish out, and as you point out, have a heaps better threat range. Perhaps a "miss" with the .22 LR is the round bouncing off the targets sternum... thats flavourful if anything!

But that's still HP damage. From the stories I hear, having bullets bounce of your bones is really, really unpleasant. Doing a minumum of 2 damage with a .22 just seems silly. It can't be any more damaging than getting stabbed with a shortsword. I would imagine.

I'm not sure if I'd rather get shot by a .22 or stabbed. A stab wound would be rather big, but those .22 rounds tend to rattle around inside of bodies.

[ilovefire]

dragonsbreath rounds contain small pyrotechnic charges, and are used by firemen for starting backfires to fight large forest fires.

master key rounds are packed with metal dust instead of pellets, used to break door locks.

Beehives are flechettes.

[magic8BALL]

Specialist shotguns rounds:

dragons breath rounds deal 1 point of fire damage per die, reduce die size (d3's to d2's, d2's to 1 point each) (?)

master key rounds have -10ft range inc. Ignore hardness of objects. (?)

behives deal 4d12 damge, do not spead.

bean bags deal 2d12 subdual blugeoning damage, -10 ft rang inc.

This sound about right? I may start to time warp PC's in and out of the future in our D&D campaign, a few guns might get used.

[Indon]

Personally, one tweak I did for firearms is that shotguns can be readied against a charge for double damage. I felt that reflected the short range and stopping power behind the weapon class.

[alchemy.freak]

8 ball, i have some questions, 1 how do you make three round burst and double tap work, and other special rules related to adding or increasing dice?

secondly, isn't your system a little too complicated for people new to the game? i have some newbies who are confused even by my rules.

One comment about snipers,
i have a house rule called the "Grassy Knoll" rule, which allows a sniper with an appropriate weapon to deliver an instant kill on a relatively human target (i.e. mortal, has a brain in its heat, a heart in the same location like an elf, orc, dwarf etc...) But several conditions must be met.
i will post it later

[alchemy.freak]

Soylentplaid, if the autofire rules in modern are a dissapointment (and believe me they are) i have found that the call of cthulhu(i think thats how you spell it) are very good, they just dont work well for three round burst or double tap

[Closet_Skeleton]

So it's an area attack, but what if I want to shoot one fool punk up full of lead?

Take the Burstfire feat.

Personally I find the d20 modern autofire rules far better than other systems that use 10 odd seperate attacks. They might seem stupid when you read them but they work and I find them representing every actual use of autofire.

[cferejohn]

My question is: if these kinds of things are running around, how does a character even survive to 3rd level? The problem with more realistic gun rules, as I see it, is that realistically guns, especially modern guns, just mow people down, and while DnD (or d20) characters cease to be very "real" once their HPs climb into the 40s or so, at early levels they are just going to get mowed down...