Are bloodlines worth it as a player?

[Scalenex]

Not sure what a bloodline is? Check out the friendly SRD

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm

I was planning to give my next character, a barbarian/sorcerer a minor or intermediate bloodline of White Dragon (though I haven't quite ruled out demon or devil) to represent the source of his unlikely sorcerous powers.

My DM pointed that I had interpreted the rules incorrectly in my favor. I thought levels spent on bloodline would contribute to the feat I get every three levels and the ability score increase I get every four levels, but after reading the rules very carefully, I realize that I would not gain those. Also, I sadly realize that the levels sacrificed for a bloodline wouldn't even count towards the acquisition of the power itself. So in a sense taking a bloodline is like taking a race or template with a level adjustment, only you get the powers slowly and pay the levels back even slower. Still, I view the interest rates as being too high. To illustrate this, compare a major Dragon bloodline to the half-dragon template. Both cost three levels, the half-dragon just requires them upfront but gives you more power in all cases.

So pertending I took a minor dragon bloodline, I am 11th level and about to get ot 12th, the 12th level power is +1 Strength. Original plan was that at 12th level, I'd gain no hitpoints, skillpoints, or anything like that but my strength modifier would go up +1 as I get +1 to strength for my bloodline and +1 for the fact that I gained a level divisible by four.

So what do people on the Giant Forums think about bloodlines in general?

P.S. Try not to get into tangents on the origins of bloodlines and who would have to mate with what or how many generations traits would persist.

[Caelestion]

Don't forget that bloodlines add to caster levels - they're like powered-up level adjustments that you don't need to take all at once.

[Dark Tira]

Bloodlines are worth it if you never end up paying for them. If your character or campaign is unlikely to ever reach the 12th level there's no reason not to grab a minor bloodline, except for the cheese factor. Otherwise, it's almost always better to grab a template.

Oh, and if you want something to reflect that your sorceror has draconic blood I'd suggest using the Draconic Heritage feat from Complete Arcane, Races of the Dragon, and Complete Mage.

[Zincorium]

Key point: Feats and ability score adjustments are based on hit dice. If you don't have a hit dice for an effective character level, then it doesn't count. Racial hit dice do.

As far as bloodlines go, I'm conflicted as far as mechanics and I don't like the concept that much. Since I don't like half elves or half orcs conceptually either, take that preference for what you will.

Mechanically, the benefits you gain tend to not be very important. They're nice, but if they make or break a character you're already in trouble. What they're good for is a spellcaster who doesn't worry too much about hit dice or base attack bonus, but needs some extra sparkle to give them something to look forward to at each level, instead of just a few more spells and that's it. That you gain higher level spells and more spells slower than normal might be worth it if you're satisfied with the amount of progression you already have.

When you actually break it down, even minor bloodlines are about the value of a whole bunch of magic items that don't take up slots. That they take away levels of BAB, hit dice, skill points, and/or spells known and castable that are the meat and drink of an adventuring life makes that look like not such a good deal.

[Isomenes]

My DM pointed that I had interpreted the rules incorrectly in my favor. I thought levels spent on bloodline would contribute to the feat I get every three levels and the ability score increase I get every four levels, but after reading the rules very carefully, I realize that I would not gain those.

This should not dissuade you from taking the class. It provides, more than anything else, an awesome seed for backstory. Its material advantages are more useful if you plan your character out a few (or several) levels in advance, or if you start mid-level. I started a Bard7 with 1 level of intermediate Copper dragon bloodline, partly for the Perform check bonus, but also because we are running a dragon campaign, with a Red Wyrm to slay in the far distant future. Sure, it hindered me slightly, but I've only got one more bloodline level to take, and this can be worked into the story as part of a transformative process.

If you look at it solely from a mechanics perspective, you bleed every drop of roleplaying potential from the variant. Don't sell your game short--have fun with it!

[Bears With Lasers]

Isomenes: you can have the same draconic-ancestry fluff without actually using the bloodline mechanics, you know.

I'd say that as a general rule--no. Bloodlines aren't worth it, mechanically. There are occasional exceptions.

[Isomenes]

Isomenes: you can have the same draconic-ancestry fluff without actually using the bloodline mechanics, you know.

Which chews up feats. Meh.

I'd say that as a general rule--no. Bloodlines aren't worth it, mechanically. There are occasional exceptions.

Did you read the part where I said "ignore the mechanics?" Powergaming's great, but the bloodline tradeoff is only bad if you're trying to "win" D&D.

[oriong]

No, you're missing his point.

You can have the exact same 'heritage' with no feats, no bloodline. Just put it in your character's backstory.

[Bears With Lasers]

Which chews up feats. Meh.

No, it doesn't. You don't have to take a Draconic Ancestry feat to play a character with draconic ancestry. You can just, you know, say, "my character has draconic ancestry." Roleplaying > mechanics.

Did you read the part where I said "ignore the mechanics?" Powergaming's great, but the bloodline tradeoff is only bad if you're trying to "win" D&D.

The bloodlines are a mechanic. Why would you ignore the mechanics when taking/discussing a mechanic? You can have draconic ancestry as fluff. You can write it into your backstory. You can say that your higher stats, better spellcasting, etc. as you level up normally is from getting in touch with that heritage. You can have the exact same fluff without actually taking the bloodline. The bloodline mechanic doesn't influence the fluff one way or the other. Therefore, the only reasons to take the bloodline are mechanical ones.

[Isomenes]

No, you're missing his point.

You can have the exact same 'heritage' with no feats, no bloodline. Just put it in your character's backstory.

Which loses you the mechanical benefits. They're not stellar, sure, but they also provide a framework on which to build. And who's to say magic items to replace said benefits are available or prevalent?

The OP asked whether there were benefits. I say, sure there are benefits. You just can't expect them to happen all at once. There's certainly nothing wrong with the idea. (Insofar as nothing is wrong with the idea of half-elves or half-orcs. )

[Bears With Lasers]

Which loses you the mechanical benefits. They're not stellar, sure, but they also provide a framework on which to build. And who's to say magic items to replace said benefits are available or prevalent?

...the mechanical benefits are worse than just taking class levels. A character with class levels and "draconic heritage" fluff in his story is exactly the same roleplay-wise, and better mechanically.

The OP asked whether there were benefits. I say, sure there are benefits. You just can't expect them to happen all at once. There's certainly nothing wrong with the idea. (Insofar as nothing is wrong with the idea of half-elves or half-orcs. )

Yes, there are benefits. "Roleplaying potential", as you implied, isn't one of them. That's the same either way. The benefits a bloodline level gives you are less than the benefits an actual class level does, nineteen times out of twenty.

[oriong]

Weren't you just saying 'ignore the mechanics'?

If the mechanical benefits aren't worth the drawbacks then the non-existant role-playing benefits aren't going to make them any better.

[Isomenes]

...the mechanical benefits are worse than just taking class levels. A character with class levels and "draconic heritage" fluff in his story is exactly the same roleplay-wise, and better mechanically.

Yes, there are benefits. "Roleplaying potential", as you implied, isn't one of them. That's the same either way. The benefits a bloodline level gives you are less than the benefits an actual class level does, nineteen times out of twenty.

Well, you've made your case. Mechanically, bloodlines are worthless.

I still maintain that, for an inexperienced roleplayer (myself being one of them), it provides a useful guide to how a character with a bloodline might progress. Sure, it provides no grand mechanical benefit. But I think our difference is one of first principles--the notion of whether a mechanically better PC is necessarily the goal. I don't have any particular attachment to it; you seem to.

[Bears With Lasers]

Well, you've made your case. Mechanically, bloodlines are worthless.

I still maintain that, for an inexperienced roleplayer (myself being one of them), it provides a useful guide to how a character with a bloodline might progress.

No, what they do is train inexeprienced roleplayers to link mechanics *to* roleplaying and become nigh-unable to separate them. Inexperienced or not, "...and so my character has draconic ancestry and is a little bit dragonlike, and that's where his spellcasting comes from" isn't exactly complicated. If people start going "oh, draconic blood... I should take a draconic bloodline, then," they'll start thinking that they need to have some mechanical backup for anything in their fluff; they'll tie their roleplaying *to* the mechanics, which, in a game like D&D, is limiting.

Sure, it provides no grand mechanical benefit. But I think our difference is one of first principles--the notion of whether a mechanically better PC is necessarily the goal. I don't have any particular attachment to it; you seem to.

I certainly don't see any reason to make your PC mechanically *worse* when you're not even getting Roleplaying Benefits out of it.

[headwarpage]

Bears is right on this one. You can roleplay bloodlines without actually taking the levels. You can even look over the bloodlines as written, use that as a roleplaying seed, and then not actually take the bloodlines. You gain all sorts of interesting abilities as you level up - ability score increases, spellcasting, class features, etc. Your character doesn't realize that he's getting these things because he gained a level. Maybe he feels like it's his diabolic/draconic/celestial heritage manifesting itself.

But if you still want to do it, go for it. But the mechanics of the bloodlines aren't vital to the fluff, and it's probably not the best choice mechanically. If you understand that, and still want to do it, more power to you.

[Isomenes]

No, what they do is train inexeprienced roleplayers to link mechanics *to* roleplaying and become nigh-unable to separate them. Inexperienced or not, "...and so my character has draconic ancestry and is a little bit dragonlike, and that's where his spellcasting comes from" isn't exactly complicated. If people start going "oh, draconic blood... I should take a draconic bloodline, then," they'll start thinking that they need to have some mechanical backup for anything in their fluff; they'll tie their roleplaying *to* the mechanics, which, in a game like D&D, is limiting.

Sure, the possibility exists, but it's a bit specious to say that it will eventually happen. Practice is practice.

I certainly don't see any reason to make your PC mechanically worse when you're not even getting Roleplaying Benefits out of it.

Here lies the crux of the matter.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I look at bloodlines the same way I look at LA- either give it to everyone for free, or don't even include it in your game. It's just another crunchy reason to weaken your character in a misguided attempt to achieve better fluff.

[Bears With Lasers]

Sure, the possibility exists, but it's a bit specious to say that it will eventually happen. Practice is practice.

Not really. I think it's safe to say it can and does happen, from the amount fo players who can't seem to divorce mechanics from roleplaying.

Here lies the crux of the matter.

So... why do you want to make your character worse? And if you do, why not just do so by playing a similar but weaker class or slightly worse build, rather than by taking bloodline levels?

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Wait wait wait- I just reread this stuff and found a major loophole. If your DM is foolish enough to let you make your own custom bloodline and you have no soul, you can really use this to epicly cheesy proportions.

Pick your favorite ability, and put all three bloodline points into it. Then choose 1-4 skills that you like. Finally, the real kicker- 10 special abilities. This really isn't explained very well, but apparently that qualifies for energy resistance, damage reduction, natural armor, some very nice extraordinary abilities (like Use Oversized Weapon), a few useful class features, and feats of any kind regardless of prerequisites.

My god... the power. For three levels, that's like hitting the jackpot.

[Caelestion]

"you have no soul"

I presume you're talking about their conscience? Obviously though, a strict theme should definitely be enforced.

[Fax Celestis]

"you have no soul"

I presume you're talking about their conscience? Obviously though, a strict theme should definitely be enforced.

Granted, but getting things like Awesome Blow for free, when you normally wouldn't qualify? Sweeeeeeeet.

[Noneoyabizzness]

have a titan blooded dread necro right now, it's fun if only to boast the bloodline of a long forgotten death god.

the bloodlines are only as good as you make them

[Caelestion]

Heh. There's always the bonus ability "DM slap" too.

[ravenkith]

Yes if you go custom, you can very easily make a 'demigod' bloodline.

Pick your favorite god, and go to town.

Heck, you could pretty much take any racial or class special ability from regeneration to multiple arms to spell like abilities.

Oversized weapon would be very impressive though, especially if you're a medium sized critter.

[TheElfLord]

Wait wait wait- I just reread this stuff and found a major loophole. If your DM is foolish enough to let you make your own custom bloodline and you have no soul, you can really use this to epicly cheesy proportions.

Thankfully I'm not that foolish

[Isomenes]

Not really. I think it's safe to say it can and does happen, from the amount fo players who can't seem to divorce mechanics from roleplaying.

Without any evidence, it's easy to make this assertion.

So... why do you want to make your character worse? And if you do, why not just do so by playing a similar but weaker class or slightly worse build, rather than by taking bloodline levels?

Because I'm not focused on doing everything the "better" way--I enjoy exploring things for the sake of exploration. Yes, despite evidenced superiority on a single axis. It's not your problem. Don't act as if everyone thinks like you, or should.

[Person_Man]

It's rarely worth it to take Bloodlines, just as its rarely worth it to take races or templates with Level Adjustment. (Of course, there are a few exceptions, like Feral or Mineral Warrior, but for the most part its a very bad idea). Dipping into Fighter is a much better way to get bonus feats, and all the other benefits are pretty minor, not nearly worth the tradeoff of lost HD and class abilities.

As Dark Tira mentioned, its always to your benefit to take a minor Bloodline if you're never going to see 12th level, but any DM that allows that is going to have 5 players with minor Bloodlines.

Because I'm not focused on doing everything the "better" way--I enjoy exploring things for the sake of exploration. Yes, despite evidenced superiority on a single axis. It's not your problem. Don't act as if everyone thinks like you, or should.

Isommenes, I don't think Bears is suggesting that everyone thinks like him or should. I think he's correctly observing that Bloodlines are a Pareto Inefficiency. From a pure utility maximizing point of view, you are always better off doing something else. By choosing to play a Bloodline, a PC is choosing to play a weaker version of the same class, when he can play a stronger version by just taking more levels of the same exact class. It's like choosing to play Dan from Street Fighter. You could play Ryu or Ken and have the same exact style of play, but better. You could just roleplay that your name is Dan.

[Isomenes]

From a pure utility maximizing point of view, you are always better off doing something else. By choosing to play a Bloodline, a PC is choosing to play a weaker version of the same class, when he can play a stronger version by just taking more levels of the same exact class. It's like choosing to play Dan from Street Fighter. You could play Ryu or Ken and have the same exact style of play, but better. You could just roleplay that your name is Dan.

It's not about the strongest class.

It's not about the strongest class.

It's not about the strongest class.

Bears is perfectly correct when he says there are better choices to make, mechanically speaking. I have already stated that I agree with him in this respect. My reasons for liking bloodlines stem from curiosity. His basic premise is one that he fails to consider might not be held by others when he asks, "Why do you want to make your character worse?"

My answer: because I choose to explore other facets of the game. It's interesting. Not everyone plays to make their character the strongest. Some play because, well, it's play. I chose to share why I like it.

That's all.

[Fhaolan]

My answer: because I choose to explore other facets of the game. It's interesting. Not everyone plays to make their character the strongest. Some play because, well, it's play. I chose to share why I like it.

That's all.

It's just a game, afterall. And the point of games is to win at them. If you can't win, you must be a loser. Q.E.D.

Just kidding.

"If winning is not important, then, Commander, why keep score?" - Worf, STNG

[Fax Celestis]

My answer: because I choose to explore other facets of the game. It's interesting. Not everyone plays to make their character the strongest. Some play because, well, it's play. I chose to share why I like it.

That's all.

That may be all, but I do believe that you're of the mind that you can't roleplay well if you optimize. This is patently false.

Optimization is a mechanical aspect, while roleplay is a fluff aspect. The two are entirely divorced from each other. Hell, I could take the rogue as-is and change the fluff. Suddenly, the rogue is a freedom fighter! Or an assassin! Or even a tinkerer!

Mechanics and fluff are two different concepts that are entirely unrelated to one another. There's no reason you should make yourself mechanically worse for the sake of roleplay, since the two should be completely unrelated (and actually are, unless you make them otherwise).

It's like taking Monkey Grip, a tried-and-true mechanically poor feat, for the purpose of saying, "My character uses a gigantic weapon". Instead of taking the feat, save yourself the feat and the -2 on attack rolls, and merely describe your weapon as larger than normal. Similarly, describe your character as having golden-tinged skin and greenish eyes instead of taking a gold-dragon bloodline. Fluff-wise, it's exactly the same, but mechanically, you're better.

In essence, your mechanics should not determine your fluff, optimized or not. Similarly, your fluff should not determine your mechanics. The two are entirely unrelated, and should not be treated like they are.