Energy substitution [Earth]

[Cowboy_ninja]

common! earth is an energy too! and there are plenty of earth descriptor spells since the Wujen came in. Would it disrupt the balance if we tweeked the energy subsitute featto include earth, metal, wood, and others.

And as such. shouldn't i be able to pick energy subsisution [earth] as the prerequisites for the elemental salvant going for the earth elemental? (they have it as acid=earth)

does anyone see anything wrong with this logic? granted i will be able to use energy subsitute to apply my elementaly mastery (6th lvl Wujen) to more spells, but a wujen that goes after fire can do that anyway.... is this a game killer?

[oriong]

Earth isn't an energy. Earth is an element, there's a difference.

Energy refers to specific types of damage (such as fire, acid, electricity, cold, and sonic), not to the elemental planes.

What in the world has Earth Resistance? Earth Immunity? How would the damage you inflict be resisted at all?

The only reasonable solution that comes to mind would be to make a feat (and not it should not be a function of the energy substitution feat) that convert's a spells damage from energy to physical (bashing, slashing, or piercing), and thus causing it to be subject to DR, but not to spell resistance.

[Dark Tira]

It would be a game killer. Energy Substitution doesn't even work with sonic because the resistance is so rare. Earth would be almost as good as making your spells force.

[Hurlbut]

Acid is very earth.

[Cowboy_ninja]

Earth isn't an energy. Earth is an element, there's a difference.

Energy refers to specific types of damage (such as fire, acid, electricity, cold, and sonic), not to the elemental planes.

but there are already spells with the Earth descriptor (damage). Evocation [earth] (earthbolt) transmutaion [earth] (earthen grasp). besides the wording i dont see any difference between an element and an energy because in the world of D&D they can be used in essentially the same way.

[Cowboy_ninja]

It would be a game killer. Energy Substitution doesn't even work with sonic because the resistance is so rare. Earth would be almost as good as making your spells force.

i'll give you that. i cant think of any monster or other wise that has resistances to earth damage....

[oriong]

No, there aren't. There are spells that have an Earth Descriptor but that doesn't mean they inflict 'earth' damage.

These spells inflict physical damage, not energy damage and there is a very big difference between the two.

[Cowboy_ninja]

No, there aren't. There are spells that have an Earth Descriptor but that doesn't mean they inflict 'earth' damage.

These spells inflict physical damage, not energy damage and there is a very big difference between the two.

ok so if its just plain dmg wouldnt that mean that DR would apply?

[Larrin]

spells with the descriptor [earth] usually mean you're getting hit by a rock....if anything its bludgenoning damage, though you should really check the spells description, it probably tells you what its damage type is. Rocks, metal, wood are physical, not energy any damage caused by them should be treated as such.

best case senario: if you could energy substitute [eath] in for a fireball, it would just be a blast of rocky shrapnell, thats not energy, its PHYSICAL, so you'd have changed energy damage to phsyical damage, which may not be a bad thing......

edit:darn ninjas

[Kaerou]

What.. what would earth do?

It.. it would just be like hitting your enemy with a brick. except probably not totally as hard.

I would allow it. But it would be bludgeoning damage from all the rocks. And would be resisted by damage reduction appropriately.

[Cowboy_ninja]

spells with the descriptor [earth] usually mean you're getting hit by a rock....if anything its bludgenoning damage, though you should really check the spells description, it probably tells you what its damage type is. Rocks, metal, wood are physical, not energy any damage caused by them should be treated as such.

best case senario: if you could energy substitute [eath] in for a fireball, it would just be a blast of rocky shrapnell, thats not energy, its PHYSICAL, so you'd have changed energy damage to phsyical damage, which may not be a bad thing......

edit:darn ninjas

again..... DR? that could be the balancing factor here.

[Cowboy_ninja]

What.. what would earth do?

It.. it would just be like hitting your enemy with a brick. except probably not totally as hard.

I would allow it. But it would be bludgeoning damage from all the rocks. And would be resisted by damage reduction appropriately.

THANK YOU!! i guess its just a DM ruling huh? there wont be any text/book info to back me up......

what would it do? i could apply more spells to the wujen's elemental mastery CL bonus, style reasons (i just want earth) and earth elemental slavant with earth Wujen would be fun!

[Fax Celestis]

Now, if DR applies, does SR apply too? I mean, how do you ward off a thrown brick?

[Cowboy_ninja]

Now, if DR applies, does SR apply too? I mean, how do you ward off a thrown brick?

well it is a spell..... Then why cant SR be the balanceing factor? Why can't both SR and DR be the balancing factors? would that just be under powering him?

[Piccamo]

Even if it worked the spell school is the same. SR should still apply. Its a magic brick...rock mixed with magic.

I could see a case for making a new feat that changes energy spells into physical spells, but it should not be a feature of Energy Substitution.

[oriong]

It's really not an easy thing to say, most spells that inflict physical damage explicitly don't allow SR, but if you allowed it to work that way as an 'energy conversion' you'd be making it extraordinarily powerful.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I mean, how do you ward off a thrown brick?

Brick resistance 10

Or

Profession (Mason) 10 ranks

[Fax Celestis]

Brick resistance 10

Or

Profession (Mason) 10 ranks

Smart and funny. You must kill the ladies.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Ohh, but I do!

The texture of the female skin and flesh is slightly different, so devouring them is an interesting experience. (The bones are the same though)

Some call me an aberration.... and they are correct.

[Merlin the Tuna]

How would the damage you inflict be resisted at all?

Maybe flying. Or, for that matter, well-timed jumping.

[The_Snark]

again..... DR? that could be the balancing factor here.

The problem with that is that DR is rarely as high as energy resistance. You look at a monster with DR 10/adamantine, and that thing will be tough to take down; a monster with energy resistance 10, even to all five energies, is not as tough. A higher CR monster might still have DR 10/good or whatever, but electricity and acid resistance 20 and immunity to fire and acid. You are never going to find immunity to damage on anything other than a swarm, and only on very high-CR monsters do you find anything over DR 15. Elemental resistances over 10, and elemental immunities, are quite common.

So you could do it, but keep in mind the spell is now more powerful. There's a Nonlethal Substitution feat somewhere, and that ups the spell level by one; it seems like this might do the same.

Of course, when you get down to it, it is all up to your DM.

[Tor the Fallen]

It's really not an easy thing to say, most spells that inflict physical damage explicitly don't allow SR, but if you allowed it to work that way as an 'energy conversion' you'd be making it extraordinarily powerful.

SR applies to web, so I think it would apply to Brickball.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

SR applies to web, so I think it would apply to Brickball.

Brickball: the extreme sport of choice for high level casters.

[Jack Mann]

Extreme sports for high level casters involves fighters, echantment spells, and gladiatorial bloodsports.

[Rumda]

the thing is en earth substituted fire ball will do no damage at all since fireball creates almost no pressure if would just create a 20' radius of stone

The explosion creates almost no pressure.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think the key confusion here is the fact that Acid is considered "energy" damage in D&D, when it's really physical. The other energy damage types are at least arguably energy (if you consider "Fire" to mean Heat and "Cold" to be a dangerous lack of heat), but if you make Acid an energy, everyone's going to think that things like rock and water are energy types, too.

Common sense aside, the answer's no because nothing does Earth damage and nothing is resistant to it.