How to hide?

[Renen]

If you have Hide in Plain Sight from dark template, can you hide in the open (provided there are shadows)? And darkstalker

GM says that since hide requires concealment of some sort, and Hide in Plain Sight doesnt override that. Then you can be seen as long as long as you arent hugging a corner?

[Renen]

So say, I am behind a corner, and have to pass a T intersection that a guard is watching. If I make a hide check behind my corner, and then try to sneak past intersection, can the guard see me (assuming he fails spot check)? Because if he can just because i am trying to sneak past a hallway without carrying a tower shield, then it makes me sad. And lets say I stop in the intersection because my movement ran out.
I have a few options I think might be RAW:
1) Guard sees me because no concealment
2) Guard makes a spot check, but has to beat me to see me. If he doesnt, he cant see me until my turn starts, at which point I cant hide because no concealment.

Thoughts?

[Flickerdart]

There are two kinds of Hide in Plain Sight - the Supernatural one like what the Shadowdancer has (which allows you to hide without concealment or cover, as long as you have a nearby shadow) and the Extraordinary one like the Ranger has (which lets you hide while being observed but still required cover or concealment).

If you have to pass a T-intersection a guard is actively watching, and there is no concealment to be had (such as darkness) then Extraordinary HiPS will not help you, and neither will Darkstalker.

[FishBonePendant]

Hide in plain sight this way works as if you are using the shadows for your cover.

Your DM might have to set a limit for how small the shadows can be to avoid "I hide in the shadows on this blade of grass huehuehuehuehue" but overall it should work out just fine.

[Renen]

This IS the EX version. So that means that unless I carry a tower shield around, things can see me as long as im not near a corner or in REALLY deep darkness.

[Curmudgeon]

Hide in Plain Sight bypasses the "not being observed" requirement to use the Hide skill. Beyond that, you need cover/concealment in your hiding place. If the shadows aren't enough for the DM to grant a 20% miss chance for anyone in the square, then you don't have enough concealment to be allowed to use the Hide skill.

[Karnith]

As you are presumably using the ToM version of the Dark template, I don't suppose that you have the option of switching to the Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave version (which has a Supernatural HiPS ability that explicitly obviates the need for cover/concealment)?

[heavyfuel]

Hide in Plain Sight bypasses the "not being observed" requirement to use the Hide skill. Beyond that, you need cover/concealment in your hiding place. If the shadows aren't enough for the DM to grant a 20% miss chance for anyone in the square, then you don't have enough concealment to be allowed to use the Hide skill.

Are you talking about the Ex version of it only? Because the Su version from the shadowdancer has the whole "As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind."

Or even then do you need the shadow to grant concealment? Because if so, it kinda loses the point doesn't it?

[Curmudgeon]

This IS the EX version.

Are you talking about the Ex version of it only?

Exactly as the OP wrote.

[Renen]

Bonus question about silly RAW: Does your equipment hide with you? (I thought i read somewhere it vounts as "you") or do you have to hide naked?
Note the "silly raw" statement

[Talya]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifmRgQX82O4

[Renen]

Yeh...
Does your equipment prevent you from dying like that?

[heavyfuel]

Bonus question about silly RAW: Does your equipment hide with you? (I thought i read somewhere it vounts as "you") or do you have to hide naked?
Note the "silly raw" statement

It's a known "dysfunctional rule". When you hide, your equipment hides with you. Also, Total Cover hides you without the need of a hide check. So when you use your Tower Shield to get Total Cover, you hide, and so does your shield! Which means you're 100% hidden when behind your tower shield.

[Renen]

So by raw you can hide but your equipment is still visible? Trololo

[Flickerdart]

So by raw you can hide but your equipment is still visible? Trololo

All carried or worn items become hidden when you do.

[Renen]

By RAW? O.o

[georgie_leech]

Yes. It's silly in the other direction: you're now hiding behind the shield that no one can see.

[Chronos]

Quoth Flickerdart:

There are two kinds of Hide in Plain Sight - the Supernatural one like what the Shadowdancer has (which allows you to hide without concealment or cover, as long as you have a nearby shadow) and the Extraordinary one like the Ranger has (which lets you hide while being observed but still required cover or concealment).

It would be more accurate to say that there are at least six kinds of HiPS, which differ in ability type (Su or Ex), conditions under which they can be used, and whether they address the concealment problem. Or, more to the point, there are two kinds, the kind that the Dark template grants, and the kind that everyone else gets. All other forms of HiPS, Ex or Su, either remove the requirement for concealment (like the Shadowdancer's does), provide concealment themselves (like the Umbral Disciple's), or come always paired with another ability that does one of these (like the Ranger's, which comes after the Camouflage ability in the class progression). This does not necessarily map to whether the ability is Ex or Su: For instance, the Brownie has Ex HiPS which removes the need for concealment. Given this, a DM might reasonably rule that the Dark template not removing the concealment requirement is a mistake, and houserule that it works like every other form of the ability. But as written, yes, that particular form of the ability is significantly deficient.

If you can only have one or the other, the ability to ignore the concealment requirement is the more significant. Once you're hidden, the "not being observed" requirement is trivial, since nobody is going to observe a hidden creature. In the example of that T intersection, a ranger 13 could sneak past without a problem (provided that it's a natural environment) even though he doesn't have HiPS. HiPS really only becomes relevant if you're attacking from hiding, and even then, you can remain hidden even while attacking by taking a penalty to the check (admittedly a fairly high one, at -20, but you can optimize past that).

[Piggy Knowles]

Get yourself some kind of persistent concealment, and the version of HiPS you have will work just fine. Blurring armor, a rock with darkness cast on it that you take out of a pouch when needed, a smoking weapon, various and assorted spells - there are a lot of ways to pick up concealment.

[Curmudgeon]

Get yourself some kind of persistent concealment, and the version of HiPS you have will work just fine.

For some definitions of "just fine", I guess. Walking around with a Darkness effect is pretty blatant, and (in my experience) invites area attacks.