Creatures as weapons

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I have been asked by a player what damage and what penalties he should expect if he used a kobold as a melee weapon.

(At least that's what it seems like he's asking. For the benefit of the discussion, let's assume I've understood the question.)

Anyway, here's what I came up with:

You'd need to be at least two size categories larger than medium to do it (the kobold weighs three times as much as the heaviest two-handed medium-scale weapon - a medium-sized character just doesn't have the mass to counter-balance swinging a kobold around as a weapon), but hypothetically, you'll need to get a pin on him with grappling, then use him as an improvised weapon (i.e.: take a -4 penalty).
The kobold will be struggling, so his DEX bonus will count against your attack bonus.
He'd do the same damage as a great club of the same size category - huge - 3d6, but he's not rigid like a club, so half that damage will be applied to the kobold, and not to the target.

There was a suggestion in an old rule book I read that a giant might stuff a sleeping character into a bag, and then use the bag as a melee weapon against the rest of the party as they woke up - so it's not such a strange concept.

Any other examples? Any other rulings for this sort of thing?

[NullAshton]

A corpse is an object, and thus can be used as an improvised weapon just fine.

[Artemician]

Ahh... that reminds me of a discussion me and my friend had in school.

(We were doing a silly ECL 20 PvP, no-holds barred, but most people elected not to play casters for reasons of their own)

Me: Hey, how bout we team up on the others and kill them all first, then kill each other?
Him: Mmmh? Don't disturb me. (turns to character sheet)
Me: Ooh, a hulking hurler, I see.
Him: Yea. *pause* Hey, I was wondering whether I could take EWP: Halfling.
Me: Wha? *turns to my own character sheet* Hey, I just realized something. If i just erase this "Elf" here and replace it with "Halfling"... (I was playing a "Harlequin" type character, Scout/Thief-Acrobat/Ronin with a house-ruled Shocking Rapier of Clouting)
Him: *pause* Ooohh yeah... Halfing-launcher, here I come

In the end, the DM house-ruled that "midair" constituted "difficult terrain" for the purposes of the thief-acrobat's Acrobatic Charge ability. Oh man it was great.

Turn 1:
I win Init. *Readies charge action*
His init: He picks up my character and hurls it at the enemy. I perform a mid-air charge, smashing right into the enemy, taking no damage due to Slow Fall and sending him flying back because of Clouting.

Actually, it wasn't very effective, but it was cool.

[Bender]

see complete warrior: improvised weapons: a medium creature can wield an object up to 50 lb as a two-handed weapon: a kobold weighs less.
The damage is 2d6.

some penalty for the struggling sounds good

great fun anyway

[Brauron]

I actually did this in my group's most recent session. The villainous wizard summoned a Fiendish Boar in front of my barbarian.

It went like this:

I Grappled it (grabbed it by the tusks)
Took an Attack of Opportunity from it
I made a Strength Check (to pick it up)
I rolled a Melee Attack Roll (to swing it around and hurl it with all my might at the villainous wizard)

The DM was shocked that it worked. "With all the penalties for improvised weapons and such, I really didn't think you'd manage to pull that off."

[Dumbledore lives]

This reminds me of the General Grevious I was messing with yesterday, It was Lego and I put 4 droids as weapons in each of his 4 hands, it looked cool.

[Orzel]

My friend took Leadership and threw his spiked up cohort and crazed followers at monsters. Good times 'cept the DM wouldn't let his followers cast touch spell s when they land.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

A corpse is an object, and thus can be used as an improvised weapon just fine.

The kobold isn't dead... You can bet he's not happy about this plan.

Other posts seem to imply that my ruling that the kobold (small) could be wielded by the medium-sized PC. That seems a bit daft to me.

Sure, I can pick up my 5 year old nephew by the ankles easily enough, but I can't swing him at my brother with anything approaching a combat style.

[Fhaolan]

I'd say an improvised weapon, with an additional penalty if the creature is alive (struggling). Say, double normal penalty for improvised weapon.

And, yeah, I'd say two categories smaller, or take the size penalty as well. I just can't see a Human hitting people effectively with a Halfling. A cat, yes, but a Halfling, no.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Wielding a cat..?

That reminds me - in a LARP game many years ago, I was hoping to make an "undead-cat-on-a-pole" weapon for my necromancer...

[Bender]

Other posts seem to imply that my ruling that the kobold (small) could be wielded by the medium-sized PC. That seems a bit daft to me.

Sure, I can pick up my 5 year old nephew by the ankles easily enough, but I can't swing him at my brother with anything approaching a combat style.

I would additionally rule the weapon-creature had to be maximum a light load for the wielder (or even only half that). A strong character should have no problem swinging a 40 lb kobold around, I think, the way you swing a very heavy hammer. You might have it provoke attacks of opportunities, because you can't do anything else while swinging it with two hands...
The problem might be that the kobold is not very stiff, so he would bend if you try to reverse the swinging motion, and the flailing arms and legs don't make it any easier. That's what you have and improvised weapon penalty for.

And what about using a kobold as a shield?

[Fhaolan]

Wielding a cat..?

That reminds me - in a LARP game many years ago, I was hoping to make an "undead-cat-on-a-pole" weapon for my necromancer...

I'm a firm believer that a cat makes an excellent missile weapon.

[AtomicKitKat]

Look at the Fling Ally/Enemy feats in Races of Stone, adapt from there.

[Fax Celestis]

Look at the Fling Ally/Enemy feats in Races of Stone, adapt from there.

Best. Feats. EVAR.

[goat]

Using them as a shield would be an interesting option, especially for a large character with a one handed weapon.

Grapple the small enemy, use him as a shield until he's pulp, throw him away and grab another.

[Arceliar]

Best. Feats. EVAR.

You forgot Distant Shot.

This is one of those cases when the whole is WAY more fun than the sum of the parts.

[02youeng]

How about gnome-chucks? I saw rules on here before for them, if I remember them right...

Can only be used by Large or bigger enemies
Need exotic weapon prof, double weapon

Does same damage as a quaterstaff, more if gnomes are in spiked armour
Trip attack/disarm bonus

If using gnome wizards, DC 25 concentration check + spell level to cast spells.

Half damage done is dealt to gnomes

[TheElfLord]

The kobold isn't dead... You can bet he's not happy about this plan.

Other posts seem to imply that my ruling that the kobold (small) could be wielded by the medium-sized PC. That seems a bit daft to me.

Sure, I can pick up my 5 year old nephew by the ankles easily enough, but I can't swing him at my brother with anything approaching a combat style.

While I don't know you, I'm going to assume you are not one of the few people in the world that have an equivellent of 18+ strength. The strongest normal humans can lift hundreds of pounds over their heads. I presume it wouldn't be hard for one of them to swing a 5 year old like a club

[Fualkner Asiniti]

I'm a firm believer that a cat makes an excellent missile weapon.

So. Totally. Sig. Quoted.

Anyway, in homebrew, someone made a feat to use creatures as weapons. Try searching for it.

[daggaz]

Other posts seem to imply that my ruling that the kobold (small) could be wielded by the medium-sized PC. That seems a bit daft to me.

Sure, I can pick up my 5 year old nephew by the ankles easily enough, but I can't swing him at my brother with anything approaching a combat style.

Thats the whole point about the Improvised Weapon rules.. they already take into account that you aren't exactly effective at it. You can do it, and yeah, you could probably land a swing everynow and then at it, doing some real damage, but for the most part you are gonna suck at it compared to with your normal weapons.

Theres no point in adding extra rules, tho I like the rulings for using a living (and unwilling) soft creature. Even more minus to hit, and some of the damage will be absorbed by it as well. COOL BEANS! But a medium sized character (of a decent strength) should be able to do this with some modicum of efficiency. The str score already effects it, rules are already written, if they are weak, they will suck even worse.