NPC Class question

[TheElfLord]

How do you figure out the CR of people with NPC class levels in 3.5? I know 3.0 was NPC levels-1 = CR, but this seems to give out too high of a CR to me and I was wondering if they had changed it, Thanks all!

[marjan]

I think that it is still like that by the rules, but I think CR about 2/3 class levels would be more apropriate.

[Earthstar_Fungus]

In the monster manual, it basically said that any NPC levels count as 1/2 for CR. I'm not sure whether it is rounded up or down.

[Thomas]

Earthstar_Fungus - That's only re: associated and nonassociated class levels (NPC class levels are always nonassociated), so it only applies to creatures with racial hit dice.

TheElfLord - it's still level - 1 (plus any possible modifier, like +1 for drow) *. Check out the CR and rewards section of the DMG for examples.

* Note that in CR calculations, 1-1 = 1/2, 1/2+1 = 1, 1/2-1 = 1/3 ...

The CR is way too high at higher levels; giving the CRs as level/2 wouldn't produce unbalanced results, in my opinion (since a level 12 warrior certainly isn't CR 11, and wouldn't pose much of a problem for a 6th-level party as CR 6...).

[Shhalahr Windrider]

The CR is way too high at higher levels; giving the CRs as level/2 wouldn't produce unbalanced results, in my opinion (since a level 12 warrior certainly isn't CR 11, and wouldn't pose much of a problem for a 6th-level party as CR 6...).

You still have to tweak it for individual NPC classes, though. There's no way a Commoner is the same CR as a Warrior of equal level.

[Thomas]

I don't think I'd ever give experience for beating a commoner, anyway. Even a Commoner 20 is way too easy..

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Well, if a 20 HD zombie is CR 6, I'd think a level 20 commoner could qualify as a similar threat.

Of course, that's assuming the zombie CR is accurate...

[Thomas]

Not really. The commoner has 2.5 hp per HD (average 50), compared to the zombie's 6.5 (average 130), with no DR or other abilities (undead immunities, etc.). The zombie's a more notable opponent.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Other abilities?

• Ability to plan, strategize, and otherwise work on their own.
• Ability to take more than a single standard action per round.
• Immunity by Hit Dice(i.e. too many hit dice to be affected by sleep or cause fear), replicating a number of zombie immunities .
• Equipped as a 20th-level NPC.
• Access to skills and feats.

The commoner's got a lot of things going for it that the zombie doesn't have. I'd say it evens out.

[Thomas]

I wouldn't say commoners get NPC equipment. And with a stat array of either 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 or 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, they won't get very many useful feats.

A third-level party could probably take the guy out.

[Dark]

High-level commoners could still have the same wealth-by-level as any NPC, but it would probably consist mostly of buildings, farmland, wagons and ships, trade inventory... not personal combat equipment.

And it will be difficult to loot after killing them :) Probably the commoner's family will inherit most of it.

[Fax Celestis]

High-level commoners could still have the same wealth-by-level as any NPC, but it would probably consist mostly of buildings, farmland, wagons and ships, trade inventory... not personal combat equipment.

And it will be difficult to loot after killing them :) Probably the commoner's family will inherit most of it.

Oooh! Murder and grand theft! My two favorite felonies!

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I wouldn't say commoners get NPC equipment.

There's nothing saying they don't.

And why not? Just because you're a commoner doesn't mean you can't be filthy rich.

And with a stat array of either 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 or 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, they won't get very many useful feats.

I'm one can scrounge up something. Improved Toughness alone will help minimize the zombie's hp advantage.

A third-level party could probably take the guy out.

That goes for the zombie as well.

A CR 6 encounter isn't supposed to be all that difficult for a 6th-level party.

High-level commoners could still have the same wealth-by-level as any NPC, but it would probably consist mostly of buildings, farmland, wagons and ships, trade inventory... not personal combat equipment.

The so-called "Wealth By Level" table in the DMG is actually "Table 4–23: NPC Gear Value" (emphasis mine). Between the table's name and the fact that it is meant to be used in a way to provide balanced encounters, you can bet that it's meant to reflect the gear an NPC carries on his or her person, not total wealth. You'd have a hard time justifying to me the 5th-level Aristocrat that is the Supreme Emperor of half the world having only 4,300 gp in total wealth. NPC gear is only what they have on hand when encountering the PCs.

Now, I do believe you'd have balance issues if you gave 20th-level NPC Gear to a CR 5 or 6 encounter. If we're gonna change the CRs of our commoners, we should start basing NPC Gear on adjusted challenge rating rather than Character Level.

Even then, that gives the Commoner a 5,000 gp advantage over the zombie.