Psychopath Paladins and WotC

[Tobrian]

Moved from "List of Stereotypes we'd Rather Avoid" Thread

Addendum to my own reply to Renrik:

Paladins. Why can't people play them right? They're always played as high-and-mighty, imperious law-bringers with no real sense of mercy and an outrageous taste for "righteous" violence, or they end up being "sneaky" paladins that have a grey area in their code of honor, and do whatever it takes to hunt down evil. Why can't they just be humble, protective knights that are devout servants of their faiths? Hinjo is a good example of a real paladin.

Amen. I hate the psycho-paladin with a passion. They're not LG, they're LN, or even LE... "My god demands I wipe out all evil creatures!" No, you're not supposed to "wipe them out", dammit. You should try to lead a life of good example, be a paragon of virtue. Protect those who can't protect themselves. Encourage others to follow your path, not demand it. Keep up hope against cynicism. Try to find the spark of good even in those filled with selfishness, and have mercy with those who have sinned for you might one day sin also. Be humble, and forgiving if forgiveness is asked. Know those who are beyond redemption from those who have the capacity to become better.

Unfortunately, too many players and too many D&D writers (Edit: see below) seem to think that killing everything that detects as evil automatically makes you good.
((SNIPPED REST OF RANT))

Addendum: See my posting below.

I just paged through the Complete Scoundrel, and by chance came upon the Gray Guard (page 40+). Bleh. Notice how this PrC is still noted as LG! Despite the text happily mentioning "beating a confession from a heretic", "doing what must be done no matter how unpleasant" and "in the cause of righteousness".

Oh great WotC writers, thank you for another officially sanctioned stereotype incarnate of the "I'm worldweary and cynical, and I do what those pansy naive paladins don't dare to do for fear of making their pure lillywhite hands dirty" zealot. It's even worse than the inquisitor from Complete Warrior.

Quote from Gray Guard write-up:

"You do what needs to be done for the betterment of your cause."

That's what all zealots say. Nice excuse.

Quote Gray Guard:

Only the most realistic and battleworn paladins become gray guards. They know the cruelties of the world cannot be expunged merely by good example and kind words. Though no less virtuous than other paladins, they join the order's bloodstained ranks out of sense of necessity

"Realistic"?? "No less virtuous"?? The writer's definition of "virtue" seems to be radically different from mine.... Is virtue now merely defined by how unwaveringly you follow your deity? No comment.

What pisses me off is the writer basically claiming that pure mercifully paladins with a saviour complex only belong in worlds with a rigid black-and-white morality scheme where good and evil are clearly delineated, while the Gray Guard is more "realistic" and "battle-hardened", he's not a step down up but a step up from a mere paladin towards an elite protector, and his deity approves. GAH!

My opinion? Precisely because the gameworld I run is not just black-n-white THAT's when a paladin's capacity for compassion is needed. IF the world was only made up of gloriously good people on the one hand and hideously irredeemable evil on the other, what would you need compassion and mercy for? One side would never do wrong, the other would be beyond redemption.
It's the gritty grey shades of morality world that needs room for compassion.

It's the Gray Guard who sounds like the textbook example of someone who sees the world in black and white.

Notice that other PrCs with similar philosophies (ends justifies the means of killing), like the Avenging Executioner (Completel Scoundrel, page 24) are clearly listed as non-good killers. So, using inspiring fear in your victims/opponents makes you non-good... brutally beating up anyone who doesnt measure up to the beliefs of your religious order because they really really deserve it... makes you LG! Hurray!

Yes, theoretically these guys commit their torturing and stuff in the name of protecting the innocent, see "virtue" above. However, I fail to see the difference between them and what they oppose.

Quote Gray Guard:

"Opon entering this prestige class, you take a vow of allegiance to your faith beyond that of any ordinary paladin. This vow grants you measure of freedom to act on your cause's behalf without fear of retribution should your duties require you to break your code of conduct. Dishonorable acts still cause you to loes both Gray Guard and Paladin class features until you atone, but this infraction is considered much less severe tan it would be for a paladin.(...)

Debilitating Touch: By 2nd level, you learn to channel your lay on hands ability into a painful touch attack. (...)

Justice Blade: By 4th level, you have learned that suffering and injustice are not exclusive province of evil. You can use your smite evil ability to instead punish creatures of chaotic alignment. (...)"

It's certainly easier to torture Joe the cardsharp than go toe to toe with a Black Guard.

Devastating Touch: When you attain 5th level, your deity shows its approval of your grim work. (...)

What deities you ask? Why, Heironeous! Tyr, and St. Cuthbert.

Quote:

Unbound Justice: At 7th level, unrestricted by your code of honor, you can employ unorthodox methods that are all the more effective because they're unexpected.

Yeah because playing a paladin... well sort of a paladin... is all about being an effective killer. Right.

I wish I could ask that writer who invented the Gray Guard one question: If a deity that has both paladins and Gray Guards in its employ approves of the Gray Guards' work so much, and grants them all sorts of exceptions regarding doing the work of church sanctioned torturers, then why the hell do paladins fall if they do the same stuff?? Isn't it the deity that decides when you fall from grace?? Why does getting a PrC suddenly give you leeway while granting you the same advantages? Is it just me, or is this illogical?

Quote:

Sacrament of True Faith: At 10th level, you gain your order's full confidence. You are granted the freedom to act on behalf of your faith as you deem necessary. Thus you never risk losing your class abilities in the pursuit of of a just cause and never need to atone for violating your code of conduct.

...wait... then what is a code of conduct for? Isn't that convenient.

Quote:

This trust does not grant you the freedom to act as violently or immorally as you wish, however. Release from your code of conduct depends on your acting as an exemplar of your order’s ideals. If you violate this trust by habitually acting in an immoral or corrupt manner, the leaders or deity of your faith might revoke their blessing and banish you from the ranks of the faithful (see Ex-Gray Guards, below).

Kicking a heretic's teeth in = not immoral or corrupt. Listen and learn, kids!

And here was me believing that "justifying your own immoral actions as necessary, lawful and moral under the rules you've made yourself" was the definition of Lawful Evil??

Yes, governments do employ people who do exactly that, the "dirty work", things that "need to be done" as the euphemism goes... sometimes they do need to be done, but more often usually it's a handy excuse for certain people to advance their own agenda. It's called corruption. Look it up.

And in a world filled with magic where evil deities exist, one should perhaps not take tarnishing one's own soul so lightly, even if it is in the pursuit of "goodness". But those Gray Guards would probably tell you that they're prepared to selflessly make that sacrifice. Just after they've told you that you detect as an evil traitor.

All suspects are guilty, otherwise they wouldnt be suspects, right?

Code of Conduct: As a gray guard, you are held to the same code of conduct as a paladin.

Muahahah! Sorry.

You must be of lawful good alignment and must never willingly commit an evil act. You must also pledge to respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, cheating, using poison, and the like), aid the needy, and punish those who harm the innocent. (snip)
You can never break your code without good reason

So it's more a trick of finding the "right" excuse?

So, what are "evil acts", exactly? See below:
Ex-Gray Guards
As a gray guard, you are less at risk of permanently losing your abilities than a paladin is. You might lose them temporarily for committing dishonorable acts, but you are granted clemency for performing such deeds in the name of your faith and can atone more easily. Nevertheless, if you commit unforgivably evil acts (such as slaughtering innocents or despoiling a temple of your faith), take action that opposes your faith’s tenets, or habitually violate your code of conduct, you risk permanent expulsion from the holy order.

..or be forced to revert back to being a pansy go-gooder paladin who has to worry about morality and losing his powers all the time. Nya nya!

WEll, given that as you gain level in this PrC, your code of conduct basically devolves to "do whatever you deem necessary" and "unforgivable evil acts" are so very loosely defined, going along with sacrificing someone else's teeth for your noble cause shouldn't be too hard.

Isn't religion fun.

[Fawsto]

the Gray Guard is not a Paladin, he isn't even a Lawful Good character... In the best of best overwiew he is a Lawfull Neutral character. Being good means being purehearted. This guy isn't purehearted at all. He is that kind of guy that blames his dutys for the evil deeds he is doing... Grey Guard isn't a White Paladin... Looks that the shades of grey are moving towards the more dark ones... Like that other guard, the black one...

[That Lanky Bugger]

I think this can be quite readily banned from all of my games without seeing the mechanics of the class. The last thing I need is a PrC which encourages Miko-likes to pop up in my games.

[oriong]

Someone who does what the gray guard does couldbe good, although it's very definitely a slippery slope, but the fact that they have license to do these things does not necessarily mean they take it lightly or even engage in them willingly (sure they may be able to torture someone for information, without evidence and get away with it, it doesn't mean they're willing to or even have to).

That said, they're definitely not paladins, except in a rather 'cynical' world. They could work then, but that would require you think of the gods in rather unflattering terms: the paladins are the spokesmen and poster boys, they're the ones that are presented as paragons of virtue by the gods because the 'public' needs to see that sort of dedication, and they're punished for falling because the gods can't afford flawed 'heroes'. The grey guard are the tools the gods use when they want things to happen rather than just to put on a show.

[PaladinBoy]

Oh for the love of........

GAHHHHH!

I hate that!!!! That guy is a misguided.....uh...... idiot.....

Okay, rant's over.

Seriously, though, who designed that? I certainly agree that that guy isn't Good. Doing evil acts in the name of a good cause is still evil. And since this class would appear to recognize and agree with its evil actions, it's not even a misguided neutral, it's full-blown evil. Period.

Good deities do not grant spells and powers to evil people, at least not in my campaign.

[Tobrian]

Unfortunately, the entry requirements for this PrC list Lawful Good alignment and "Special: Must adhere to a code of conduct that prevents the character from performing evil acts." And describes them as a special elite order of paladin-like religious warriors.

I didnt make this up.

Edit:
The flavour text specifically mentioned "beating a confession from a heretic". That's inquisition logic. It's perfectly circular: You beat him up to get him to confess being a heretic... and you're allowed to do that because you already know he's a heretic. it smacks of judge jury and executioner.


That's the main reason why my rogue/wizard/arcane-trickster is so wary of paladins and their detect evil ability (although being NG himself he likes honorable paladins). Come on, if a paladin points at you and claims "Scoundrel! You're evil!!" you're totally at the mercy of a paladin! Because unless there's some other cleric or paladin around how do you prove you're not? No-one can check if the paladin really detected evil... or if he's just lying. But of course everyone knows a paladin would never lie. Right? If you alredy have a bad reputation, who will the citizens believe? If some curse or item you carry (look at Roy carrying Xykon's crown), you MAY have an evil aura without even knowing it.

(Worse, if you're an openly confessed Sceptic - in World of Greyhawk the Sceptics are a philosophical group mostly comprised of wizards and sages, some of who are hard atheists denying that the gods exist at all and claiming that clerics are a kind of sorcerer, while the majority of Sceptics accepts that powerful entities commonly called gods exist but they refuse to worship them.
My rogue/wizard/arcane-trickster character does occasionally worship Rao, god of peace, serenity and knowledge, but he did voice the same objections to clerical power as the Sceptics long before he (or I the player!) knew such a sect existed! And he's been called a heretic by our Pelorite cleric more than once... in good fun? Who knows... Very ominous.)

Add to that the fact that even divinely granted Detect Evil can be blocked or deceived by magic items or certain PrC class abilities, and my character has reason not to trust in the omniscience of paladins.

[cupkeyk]

I would like to see a variant Paladin with the half elf bard's soothing voice and atonement in it's spell list. Talking the bad guys into becoming good.

[Rabiesbunny]

Aw, psychopathic paladins are fun...

Hell, there's a feat in Waterdeep: City of Splendors, it's called Veil of Cyric. You can have a LE Paladin of Torm, doing horrible things, but retaining his power because he's so zealous.

[malakim2099]

I just think of the Mikonator when I hear about this class. *twitch*

Or, to put it another way...

Spoiler

Show

If Miko had this PrC, there's a decent chance she wouldn't have fallen, as she believed she was following the will of the Twelve Gods when she bisected Shojo.

NOTE: This isn't meant to troll or fan any flames to Miko fans out there. I like her as an antagonist to the OOTS. But the bottom line is, if you don't follow the Code, you shouldn't be a paladin, period.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Uh, I like this class, actually.

Frankly, it's possible to be villainous while being a standard Paladin (re: Miko). Even the best codes can be twisted, skirted and misenterpreted. Ultimately it's up to the individual.

Also, it could depend strongly on the deity said Paladin is serving. I could easily see the Church of St. Cuthbert, Helm, or the Silver Flame fielding a squad of Grey Guards who use kidnapping, torture, psychological warfare and any number of "dirty tactics." The Temple of Heironeus and Church of Pelor, not so much.

[Renegade Paladin]

Aw, psychopathic paladins are fun...

Hell, there's a feat in Waterdeep: City of Splendors, it's called Veil of Cyric. You can have a LE Paladin of Torm, doing horrible things, but retaining his power because he's so zealous.

It's called "Veil of Cyric" for a reason. That ain't Torm giving you all the nifty stuff...

Edit: And also, the feat doesn't let you retain your powers. Gareth Cormaeril is a blackguard and in denial about it; his paladin powers are gone.

[PaladinBoy]

Unfortunately, the entry requirements for this PrC list Lawful Good alignment and "Special: Must adhere to a code of conduct that prevents the character from performing evil acts." And describes them as a special elite order of paladin-like religious warriors.

I didnt make this up.

And, of course, they get an ability that allows them to ignore their code of conduct and perform evil acts.

That's ridiculously contradictory.

I believe you........ I just hate the idea of this class, I hate the ideals behind this class, etc. My reasoning can be summed up in one sentence.

If you use evil methods to fight an evil regime, then if you win, nothing has changed. There are just new faces on the coins. (I actually paraphrased this from a Star Wars book.)

I see the points some of the above posters are having. I can agree that some churches would have people like this. BUT - they are nothing like paladins. They only think they are; some of them don't even believe that they're like paladins! Even in Eberron, where clerics of the Silver Flame can be evil, paladins still must be paragons of virtue, else they lose their powers.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Miko was lawful good up until she split Shojo in half.

Do you think everything she did up to that point was befitting a paragon of virtue?

[Sardia]

There is one circumstance why I can see the paladin going into "Dirty Harry" territory and still be Lawful Good-- they _know_ if the being they're dealing with is evil or not. They know that they haven't truly repented, that they're still evil, will do evil acts, etc. If they kept beating the person after they stopped being a ping on the "detect evil' radar, then there's a big alignment problem.

My campaign approached psycho paladins in a slightly different way, though-- they were exclusively worshippers of Heironeous, but instead of detecting evil at will, they detected evil constantly. And as they increased in level, the definition of "Evil" grew ever more strict as their connection with the deity (who I took to be rather a hardass on the subject.) grew.
So as the paladin rises in levels, he gets a dose of divine disgust at more and more things-- murderers and such at first level up to adulterers and traitors and such at middle levels, to liars and petty sinners at the very highest level.
Eventually, they tend to snap and start slaying the evil wherever they find them just to ease the mental strain, or fall to the welcoming, comforting arms of Hextor. Even more likely, they hope to die valiantly in battle before it becomes a problem.

Needless to say, Paladin was not encouraged as a player character choice.

[oriong]

Uh, I like this class, actually.

Frankly, it's possible to be villainous while being a standard Paladin (re: Miko). Even the best codes can be twisted, skirted and misenterpreted. Ultimately it's up to the individual.

Also, it could depend strongly on the deity said Paladin is serving. I could easily see the Church of St. Cuthbert, Helm, or the Silver Flame fielding a squad of Grey Guards who use kidnapping, torture, psychological warfare and any number of "dirty tactics." The Temple of Heironeus and Church of Pelor, not so much.

No, it's not really possible to be villaneous as a standard paladin. it's possible to be a jerk, but that's about it.

I do agree that there are dieties who would definitely have characters of this type among their ranks, after all even a LG diety can have a LN cleric with no problems at all, and there are certainly gods who are much more L than G. The main issue is their identification with the paladin.

Like the OP said, if the god is so approving of this behavior then why do standard paladins not recieve the same lee-way? Like I said before there are game settings in which there would be valid reasons, but those aren't really standard. It would have been far better to seperate this class from paladins, since it frankly doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Folie]

Uh, I like this class, actually.

Frankly, it's possible to be villainous while being a standard Paladin (re: Miko). Even the best codes can be twisted, skirted and misenterpreted. Ultimately it's up to the individual.

Also, it could depend strongly on the deity said Paladin is serving. I could easily see the Church of St. Cuthbert, Helm, or the Silver Flame fielding a squad of Grey Guards who use kidnapping, torture, psychological warfare and any number of "dirty tactics." The Temple of Heironeus and Church of Pelor, not so much.

That's why I might consider putting Grey Guards in my campaign (should I ever run one) as devotees of a Good god, who allows them to get away with all that crazy, morally questionable stuff because an Evil god has duped him/her into believing that a Gestapo is what the world really needs. The campaign, of course, would center around uncovering this Evil god's machinations and ultimately putting a stop to them, and this would almost certainly involve laying the smackdown on the Grey Guards.

[PaladinBoy]

Miko was lawful good up until she split Shojo in half.

Do you think everything she did up to that point was befitting a paragon of virtue?

No. But she didn't step over the line until then, she was just a strict jerk. She wasn't being nice, but being unkind doesn't equal being evil.

From the sound of this class, they step over the line often, and still keep their powers. I really don't like that.

[Rabiesbunny]

It's called "Veil of Cyric" for a reason. That ain't Torm giving you all the nifty stuff...

Edit: And also, the feat doesn't let you retain your powers. Gareth Cormaeril is a blackguard and in denial about it; his paladin powers are gone.

Kay, so I misremembered. Please, stop hopping up in every thread I post in trying to contradict and fight with me. I'm woman enough to admit when I've said something not quite true by accident. Gettin' kinda old, second time so far today. I'd appreciate it.

[That Lanky Bugger]

And, of course, they get an ability that allows them to ignore their code of conduct and perform evil acts.

That's ridiculously contradictory.

I believe you........ I just hate the idea of this class, I hate the ideals behind this class, etc. My reasoning can be summed up in one sentence.

If you use evil methods to fight an evil regime, then if you win, nothing has changed. There are just new faces on the coins. (I actually paraphrased this from a Star Wars book.)

Agreed. I can see granting holy-like powers to a character as a PrC. But to combine this stupid, "ignore your moral code" thing with a bloody Paladin is just plain wrong.

And as a side note... That Star Wars book was X Wing 9: Starfighters of Adumar by Aaron Allston, specifically when Wedge was speaking with Tomer Darpen about how the New Republic wouldn't condone his actions. (Who's geek? Lanky's a geek.)

[Piedmon_Sama]

No. But she didn't step over the line until then, she was just a strict jerk. She wasn't being nice, but being unkind doesn't equal being evil.

From the sound of this class, they step over the line often, and still keep their powers. I really don't like that.

I think you're confusing can with will. One thing I like about this PrC is that it invites more roleplaying on the player's part, as things will be less defined by his code and more defined by his discretion. Sure, the GrayGuard can do things beyond the ken of a typical Paladin, but the idea is that he's given the responsibility because he'll know when not to use it. I see it as an interesting challenge.

[Renegade Paladin]

Kay, so I misremembered. Please, stop hopping up in every thread I post in trying to contradict and fight with me. I'm woman enough to admit when I've said something not quite true by accident. Gettin' kinda old, second time so far today. I'd appreciate it.

I'm not following you around the board, and I don't have a problem with you. I don't care who says what; if I see an error I will correct it.

[Macrovore]

Uh, I like this class, actually.

Frankly, it's possible to be villainous while being a standard Paladin (re: Miko). Even the best codes can be twisted, skirted and misenterpreted. Ultimately it's up to the individual.

Also, it could depend strongly on the deity said Paladin is serving. I could easily see the Church of St. Cuthbert, Helm, or the Silver Flame fielding a squad of Grey Guards who use kidnapping, torture, psychological warfare and any number of "dirty tactics." The Temple of Heironeus and Church of Pelor, not so much.

this class was made for eberron.

[Wehrkind]

Yes, I think the distaste about this class is somewhat idealistic, in the sense that children are idealistic. It is the same logic that says "Execution is bad, because killing is bad!" that says a god might not want you torturing for fun, but if it will save a kidnapped congregation, then it is ok.

The whole point of the class is that it mirrors how reality actually works. Sometimes the good guys do some fairly bad things, and sometimes really bad things, because they only look bad on the face of it.
For instance, it is bad to shoot people in the face. Unless they are in your house threatening your life and family. Now extend that a little (and this is the problem of morality when gods enter into the picture.) A god consideres his worshippers his family, and does not brook those who would harm his brothers. Does he consider it wrong if one of his specially designated tools steps over the lines a bit to avoid great harm to them? Maybe, maybe not, depends on the god, but chances are he doesn't mind so long as they don't get nuts with it. The paladin becomes this specially designated tool precisely because of the fact he has demonstrated he will not go overboard, but is willing to do what the god considers must be done.

Note: In general, a rational moral philosophy does not mix well with the known existance of many gods, or even one.

By the way, I am curious what your adventurers do, if you find this grey paladin so distasteful. Do you still slaughter villages of demihumans because they have green skin, and civilized society calls them evil? Still delve into anchient tombs to steal treasure from those who still claim it? Reality =! D&D, and moral parallels are going to be rough to keep consistent as a result.

[SpiderBrigade]

Wow, this is really not the way I read the class at all, honestly. I actually think it's a pretty good one.

I think it isn't intended to allow you to "take the easy way out" by torturing any suspect you want, or just killing people "for the greater good, as decided by you." I think players who used the class that way would be just as culpable as paladin players who do the "detect evil=>killing spree" thing.

Look at it this way: Batman won't kill people no matter how evil they are. That's part of his "code of conduct." Isn't it possible to imagine a very similar hero, who although he frowns on killing, will do it if it becomes really, really necessary? I'm not talking about convenience, I'm talking about something like Batman's relationship with the Joker, where the guy is always escaping, and will take innocent lives again and again.

Our hypothetical superhero would have a horribly guilty conscience, and probably spend a lot of time and energy re-focusing on his commitment to good (the equivalent of Atonement), but he would be willing to kill. Again, he wouldn't do it all the time, and certainly wouldn't kill petty thieves.

Or, alternately, compare Batman to Superman. While neither one of them will kill the villain, there are lots of techniques Batman will use that Superman wouldn't. All that intimidation stuff he does, for instance. And yet he still remains focused on stopping evil, protecting good, etc.


What I'm trying to get at is that the Grey Guard isn't intended to be a callous zealot of his cause, heedless to the suffering of innocents as long as he's pursuing his goal. Breaking the code of conduct is still supposed to be a big deal for him (hence he still has to atone, until the very last level of the class). This isn't about "the cardsharp knew the name of the evil devil-worshiper, so I tore out his eyes to make him tell." It's about "the only way to take that diabolist down was by poisoning his drink...may God forgive me." Note that under normal circumstances, paladins "will never knowingly associate with evil characters." That means working with underworld informants to root out the local TEMPLE OF ULTIMATE EVIL is straight out - which a Grey Guard could do, although he would probably still have to atone for it.

[alchemy.freak]

The idea of Paladins acting as inquisitors and beating confessions our of heretics is nothing new, the PrC Shadowbane Inquisitor is much the same thing.

but really that is only one type of paladin, the chivalrous knight and the honorbound warrior are others.

the point is really that people can roleplay paladins any way they god damn please.

Granted you may ban paladins like this if you want, but i perfer to look at the role play opportunities.

In fact i play a paladin much like an inquisitor, he is cautious, wary and distrustful. I still smite evil where i see it, i merely go about it in a different way.

maybe you dont see eye to eye with this class, but try looking at it from a different prespective.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Wehrkind: The point is that a Paladin is supposed to represent that idealized good in spite of real world realities. That's why they have such powerful class abilities (at least, for the first five levels) and why they can multiclass freely while retaining their uber-powers. They have a strict code of conduct.

From what I'm reading, this class totally obliterates that line and still hands the Paladin the powers he got.

Now, a sadistic DM can and will constantly put you into positions where you'll lose your powers no matter what. A good DM will occasionally put you into positions which test your faith as a Paladin while leaving you with a valid, in-character way out.

Edit: And while the interpretation of the Paladin code is up for grabs, the code itself is actually pretty explicit. And you're never supposed to break it. But...

Unbound Justice: At 7th level, unrestricted by your code of honor, you can employ unorthodox methods that are all the more effective because they're unexpected.

and...

Sacrament of True Faith: At 10th level, you gain your order's full confidence. You are granted the freedom to act on behalf of your faith as you deem necessary. Thus you never risk losing your class abilities in the pursuit of of a just cause and never need to atone for violating your code of conduct.

Those two abilities are just plain wrong for a Paladin PrC. It basically states that "The ends justify the means", which is pretty much warned against in the Paladin code. Why bother with the code in the first place if you can now break it any time you like with an easy penance and little worries?

[Woot Spitum]

I think the gray guards can do what they do because they have special dispensation from their deity. The intent appears to me to be a class that can turn the tables on the forces of evil. It would be especially good against a party of evil PC's, turning the tables on them when they expect the "paladins" to not be quite so ruthless. For PC's, on the other hand, it isn't quite as good.

I don't like detect evil as its written. I think it should at the very least be ineffective against humanoids that aren't the active servants of their deity.

[oriong]

I agree with Spiderbrigade's assesment, it's best not too look at the class as though it's an attempt to 'break' the paladin rules, although many players may take it for just that purpose (that alone may make it a bad idea).

The main issue I have is that it is associated with paladins who follow a very, very different philosophy: virtue above expidience in all things, even above necessity perhaps.

I would not have a problem with the class as a 'grey paladin' prestige class designed to be entered by clerics or non-paladin warriors, but by making it pretty much paladin only they have taken an existing class and pretty much completely removed it's theme. It's akin to making a 'silent bard' or a 'pacifist barbarian'.

Also, while it probably should be read in the way you do unfortunately it's descriptions and class abilities do strongly support a very nasty interpretation. For instance does he really need the ability to transform his healing hands into torture weapons? And making his smite work on chaotic as well as evil just supports the 'despotic' image of the class.

[Piedmon_Sama]

No, it's not really possible to be villaneous as a standard paladin. it's possible to be a jerk, but that's about it.

If you want to split hairs, antagonist. A Paladin can be the villain of your campaign if his views on Good differ radically from the PCs' (and none of them is a Paladin).

I do agree that there are dieties who would definitely have characters of this type among their ranks, after all even a LG diety can have a LN cleric with no problems at all, and there are certainly gods who are much more L than G. The main issue is their identification with the paladin.

Quite frankly, the standard Paladin's Code is so beaten out of shape and vague that it's pretty much up to every individual DM's interpretation in the first place.

Like the OP said, if the god is so approving of this behavior then why do standard paladins not recieve the same lee-way? Like I said before there are game settings in which there would be valid reasons, but those aren't really standard. It would have been far better to seperate this class from paladins, since it frankly doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

What's this all-binding "standard" I've missed all my life?

Anyway, these days I see the Paladin more as a champion of good over any hirearchy or organization. He may swear nominal loyalty to a church or kingdom, but his first loyalty is to general good. The way I look at the GreyGuard, he is essentially putting his organization (his diety or church or whatever) over that, so they're intervening on his behalf and granting him some more leeway.

If you look at what Churches did historically, there was a time when in the worldview of those ancients that members of the church hirearchy had the power to condemn or pardon. This class connects to that and brings a bit of a--dare I say it---"historical" feel to the campaign.

Of course if you're looking for a more storybook-style game, this class probably isn't for you. I wouldn't knock it, though, it has its place.

[crazedloon]

I’m sorry I stopped reading half the responses because they were much the same stupid thing over and over again. Unfortunately he cut out a lot of the abilities that he quoted. I personally like this class.

Is kicking a heretic’s face in a good act? Oh I would not say it is good but I would never jump to the conclusion that it was evil. For example the Gray guard could have spent the last hour asking politely indeed being a very nice person to the heretic in an attempt to sway him to help or even repent. However when you know that heretics knows the whereabouts of a schools worth of children about to be sacrificed to bring a great daemon into the world you to would probably kick a few skulls in.

The difference between a gray guard and an Inquisitor or a brute trying to get info however is the after math. They do not enjoy their work they do it because they must. Indeed a grey guard should and probably does do more praying for forgiveness then any other paladin (manly because the paly never needs forgiveness because they are such goodytoshoes )

Really I hate this very narrow point of view of the class. It looks like you went into reading the class bitter because people were playing paladins wrong and ended up feeling like this was a class made to be an excuse. Really a good role-player should play this guy as a hard *** when he needs to be but more pious then any other (even if his piousness is grittier then the pansy paly )

I'll leave you with the quote from the beginning of the class description.

"Does your stout armor give you peace of mind? Does your holy sword help you sleep at night? Mine do not."
-Ambros Brasmerer, gray guard

(that aint a happy person )