Slightly OT: D&D rules question here, help?

[Professor Tanhauser]

Ok, I read a SJG product called "Muyrphy's rules" that satirizes so called "errors" or weird things in game rules.

Anyway, according to it, a cleric can be a priest of HIMSELF, effectively making himself a god he worships and can act in the name of.

Now, I'm not into D&D, and I know that a lot of the murphy's rules aren't completely justified, so I was wondering if a real D&D rules guru could tell me the real story on this, just out of curiousity.

[Yuki Akuma]

A cleric's ideal could be himself, yes. He'd probably be Evil-aligned. He wouldn't be a deity, though.

And this really belongs in Gaming.

[Snake-Aes]

There's a lot of pre-requisites to become a deity. Number of followers included. A priest that "worhips self" would probably be worshipping the cause of Evil, in some manner of selfish face of Evil. Nale would fit well said "clerichood".

[Andvare]

You can, however, screw over the rules (munchkin 'em as it is) so much that you can become a deity by the leadership feat (IIRC, the requirement to become a deity is a certain number of followers/worshippers).
You have to be an orc (for the orc warlord prestige class), and have a good charisma and strength (there is a feat that adds strength bonus to the leadership score) and, of course, quite a few levels.

Other rules funnies are that in 3.0 you could travel at the speed of light (and beyond) if you didn't rule that a natural 1 was an automatic miss. Just get the supreme cleave feat, have enough attack bonus so you can hit the creature you use to travel with on a natural 1, have enough damage bonus so that you kill the creature you travel with in any one blow and position said creature in one long line with a max of 5 feet between each creature. Zoomgh.

[Mawhrin Skel]

This would be a product of Steve Jackson Games, makers of GURPS, satirizing their competitor D&D?

[FujinAkari]

By D&D rules, you can't actually do this. There are only two ways to become a God in D&D:

1) Help Create the World, or be promoted to godhood by those who did this.

2) Kill a God, take his followers.


HOWEVER, D&D does allow nonspecific worshippers, someone who doesn't pledge themselves to a specific deity, but still cast clerical spells. This rule can be used to make a guy who believes that he is a God, and worships himself, and actually GETS spells. So... yeah... roleplayingly possible, mechanically not.

[bluish_wolf]

Gods that have levels in cleric are essentially drawing on their own divinity. In other words, worshiping themselves.

[Tokiko Mima]

There are rules for gaining divine ranks, and usually one has to be promoted by a god to ascend to Godhood. A priest can worship themselves (A Priest of Narcissus?) but it doesn't make them a god. Such a cleric that worshipped themselves as a god would not recieve spells or powers, and would be a cleric in name only.

Now, a cleric that choose an ideal of Narcissism to serve and devoted themselves to it (themselves) could recieve spells. It depends on how you look at it. They would be recieving spells from the ideal of Narcissism itself, not from themselves, but they don't have to make that distinction public.

[Jefepato]

Other rules funnies are that in 3.0 you could travel at the speed of light (and beyond) if you didn't rule that a natural 1 was an automatic miss. Just get the supreme cleave feat, have enough attack bonus so you can hit the creature you use to travel with on a natural 1, have enough damage bonus so that you kill the creature you travel with in any one blow and position said creature in one long line with a max of 5 feet between each creature. Zoomgh.

Even in 3.0, Supreme Cleave didn't let you get around your normal limitations of movement for the round. It just let you use your 5-foot step in the middle of Cleave targeting.

And that's not really a "rules funny" in any case, since natural 1 being an automatic miss is part of the rules. If you rule differently, you're making a house rule and the results are not D&D's fault but your own.

[Tokiko Mima]

I think the "rules funny" is more of the example of the perfectly legal succubus paladin. When you detect good, they will register as Good (due to being a Paladin), and when you detect evil, they show up as evil (from their Evil Subtype). Depending on how you read the rules they are simultaneously immune to attacks from good/evil aligned spells, or exposed completely to both.

Or how a maximized Shivertouch spell combined with the Hide from Dragons spell lets you slay even the greatest and most powerful dragon in single combat. You just drop their DEX to 0, (Dragons rarely have an 19+ DEX) and a 20+ ton monster with a full suite of spells, breath weapons, attacks is now completely helpless.

[Professor Tanhauser]

It says in TSR's AD&D a cleric can be a priest of himself and still get firsrt and second level spells. I was just wondering about that.

[Demented]

Question is, if you worship yourself, what are your domains?

Bob: Oh great and powerful, wonderful Bob, I would like Bless Water.
Bob: It is done.
Bob: Oh thank you, Bob. As for my domain spell...
Bob: You don't get a domain spell.
Bob: What? Why not?
Bob: Just shut up and praise me.
Bob: Yes, wonderful Bob, king of all that is everything. I, me, myself, and I.
Fred: Bob? What are you doing?
Bob: Oh, nothing. The holy water is ready.

[Talyn]

It says in TSR's D&D a cleric can be a priest of himself and still get firsrt and second level spells. I was just wondering about that.

I don't suppose you could provide a link?

[Professor Tanhauser]

I don't suppose you could provide a link?

No, this was in a book called "Murphy's rules" and to get to ther web version you have to pay to join the websitew, which I'm not gonna do as I don't want tp put a red cent in certain pockets anymore.

[Andvare]

Even in 3.0, Supreme Cleave didn't let you get around your normal limitations of movement for the round. It just let you use your 5-foot step in the middle of Cleave targeting.

And that's not really a "rules funny" in any case, since natural 1 being an automatic miss is part of the rules. If you rule differently, you're making a house rule and the results are not D&D's fault but your own.

There were no limit on how many five-foot steps you could take.

And it is a rules funny, because the auto-miss has an alternate rule which was brought forth by one of those books that carried those alternate rules (durn it, can't remember it's name). Same place as the rule that said -con to die instead of -10 (IIRC).

[The Giant]

First, this has absolutely no bearing on OOTS, so to Gaming it goes.

Second, the Murphy's Rule in question refers to First Edition D&D.

[Jefepato]

There were no limit on how many five-foot steps you could take.

You can only take one five-foot step in a round. Nothing in any version of Supreme Cleave says otherwise, and only the master samurai's version fails to spell it out explicitly. And it doesn't have to tell you when it doesn't break the rules.

And it is a rules funny, because the auto-miss has an alternate rule which was brought forth by one of those books that carried those alternate rules (durn it, can't remember it's name). Same place as the rule that said -con to die instead of -10 (IIRC).

The Epic Level Handbook, looks like.

[brian c]

Gods that have levels in cleric are essentially drawing on their own divinity. In other words, worshiping themselves.

Which makes you wonder: do Gods have a limited number of spells per day? They could always just grant themselves as many spells as they want.

[Matthew]

Ok, I read a SJG product called "Muyrphy's rules" that satirizes so called "errors" or weird things in game rules.

Anyway, according to it, a cleric can be a priest of HIMSELF, effectively making himself a god he worships and can act in the name of.

Now, I'm not into D&D, and I know that a lot of the murphy's rules aren't completely justified, so I was wondering if a real D&D rules guru could tell me the real story on this, just out of curiousity.

Sounds similar to being a Cleric of a Cause. There are a number of problems with this sort of thing, but, essentially, you have to decide where Divine Magic comes from. If Deities receive Divine Magic from something other than their own divinity, then it is possible that this character could receive Divine Magic directly from its source, by virtue of believing in himself.

[Yuki Akuma]

Which makes you wonder: do Gods have a limited number of spells per day? They could always just grant themselves as many spells as they want.

Yes. Because they have class levels. Which means they have a specified number of spells per day.

But they do get divine salient abilities that can be used all the time.

Oh, and all domain spells they can grant as at-will spell-like abilities.

[greenknight]

It says in TSR's AD&D a cleric can be a priest of himself and still get firsrt and second level spells. I was just wondering about that.

That's because of how spells were said to be powered in 1st Ed AD&D (maybe 2nd Ed as well, I don't remember for sure). It states in the 1st Ed DMG (p38) that 1st & 2nd level spells are powered by the Cleric's faith and service to the chosen diety, but no divine intervention is really required. Third through 5th level spells are more powerful, and are only granted by a supernatural servant of the Cleric's diety - these spells are too powerful for a Cleric to power him or her self. Finally, 6th and 7th level spells can only be granted by the Cleric's diety directly. Furthermore, the power of the diety worshipped determines the maximum spell level the Cleric can access (Legends & Lore, p9). If it's a Demigod, only spells up to 5th level are granted (Demigods often serve other more powerful Gods, and and are sometimes the supernatural servants who grant spells to those God's followers). Lesser Gods grant spells up to 6th level, and Greater Gods grant spells up to 7th level. There are no 8th or 9th level Divine spells in standard 1st or 2nd Ed AD&D.

[Indon]

By D&D rules, you can't actually do this. There are only two ways to become a God in D&D:

1) Help Create the World, or be promoted to godhood by those who did this.

2) Kill a God, take his followers.


HOWEVER, D&D does allow nonspecific worshippers, someone who doesn't pledge themselves to a specific deity, but still cast clerical spells. This rule can be used to make a guy who believes that he is a God, and worships himself, and actually GETS spells. So... yeah... roleplayingly possible, mechanically not.

There are multiple ways to run deities listed in the Legends+Lore/Deities+Demigods books in the various editions. Belief-by-the-numbers is among them, and is in fact explicit in at least one published campaign environment in this edition, to my knowledge (Ravenloft).