Weird@55 ideas #5: The debug wish!

[Thoughtbot360]

Warning: Within this post lies the most powerful game-destroying tool ever.

So, have you ever been screwed over by a wish before? I encourage you to try out the debug wish (must have more than one wish).

"I wish that all further wishes made from this source followed these four rules:

1-The source may not grant any wish that specifically entails the wisher harming him/her/itself (as in, someone literally saying "I wish to be impaled through the heart" or "I wish to be turned to stone.") By association, the wish may not bring about the death, injury, temporal displacement, lowered ability scores (say "intelligence or other attributes" to stay in character), forced behavior the individual cannot stop, change of alignment or pesonality, loss or changing of memories, loss of the wisher's ability to think for him/her/itself, or loss of any motor, physical, language, or mental skills whatsoever under any circumstances, even if the wisher asked for it and especially if the wisher didn't. Of course, what happens after the wish has been granted doesn't count, so if the wisher really wants to be impaled through the heart, the wisher can do it him/her/itself at leisure and its none of the wish spell's damn business.
2-No plane shifting, teleportation, imprisonment spells, or any thing that would result in involuntarily moving the wisher or anyone else unless specifically asked for in the wish. This doesn't not mean the wish may immobilize a wisher because that would constitute a breach of rule #1 (specifically, loss of motor skills).
3-If the wisher asks for the characteristics of a creature be imparted on him/her/itself or anyone else, s/he will get no aspects of the creature more or less than what was asked for. For example if a human male asks "I wish I had regeneration powers like the tarrasque", he will become a human male that cannot be killed without being reduced to -50 hit points and then have to be wished to death. He would not become a tarrasque unless he specifically said "I wish I was a Tarrasque", and even then, he would still have the mind of a human being, only in Tarrasque form.
4-A desire to enchance Intelligence or other mental abilities must be specifed in the wish, even if the wisher wishes to transform into a form that is normally smarter than it, because of the risk that the wisher would not merely being as smart as per say, a mindflayer, but would think like one, which risks a change his personality (another breach of rule #1)."

All you need are two or more wishes (usually from the same source). The DM will forbid Wish magic ever appearing in any of his games ever again after you've turned the tables on him and became free to wish for whatever you want without him screwing you over, like he obviously wanted to do. Really, though, why is the wish spell even in the game?

The best part: after you've spat off that whopper of a dousy of a wish, you (or your allies, if the wish source was granted the party each a wish) can finally just say "I wish for immortality" without embellishment.

[oriong]

Actually all that would happen is your DM will say "too bad, wish can't do that."

[TerraNova]

Hmm, lots of interesting possibilities here, but most likely that wish will just Feeblemind you with no curing possible. After all, all further wishes you are able to make (none, that is) will follow the Guidelines laid down. :)

[Roethke]

Huh. I think this falls under the category "Give a man [or woman, for that matter] enough rope..."

If I were DMing that, I'd see it as a direct challenge to come up with a clever way to screw the PC. (Generally, I'm a reasonable enough DM. If you have a loophole in your Wish, and it's not an adventure hook, there's no need to mericlessly exploit it. Unless you've had a bad day--kidding)


Let's see, you've still got the standard immortal != ageless problem. And the Wisher has wasted a Wish on meta-Wishing, so that's well and good.

[Lapak]

Aside from the fact that Wish has pretty strict limitations, the easiest way for the Wish to be granted by a screw-you-over GM (which I don't think is a good thing) is to remove the rest of the Wishes from that source, assuring that no ill effects can follow. Ring of Three Wishes burns out, efreet is released, and so on.

If the DM is determined to screw you over, he can.

[Indon]

If I were DM'ing a game and someone tried that on me, I'd let him...

...provided he could say the entire thing in a single breath. Wherever he paused to inhale, the Wish would terminate. It'd make things interesting.


Edit: Here's my debug attempt: "I wish that for all future Wish spells I use, that I recieve a detailed vision of their consequences over the next five minutes after I make the wish, and that after that vision I be given an opportunity to retract my wish."

[TerraNova]

Even if that "safety wish" is fully granted, there are lots and lots of ways to make the PCs life a living hell. "I want to be immortal" needs not even pick up concepts like "Unageing vs Immportal".

Lets check the following solution: Wisher is placed in a state similar to that of someone using Time Stop for all Eternity:

1-The source may not grant any wish that specifically entails the wisher harming him/her/itself (as in, someone literally saying "I wish to be impaled through the heart" or "I wish to be turned to stone.")

Simple, not applicable in this solution.

By association, the wish may not bring about the death, injury, temporal displacement,

Here we have something potentially applicable... but if we look closely, the "Temporal Displacement" clause is concerned with moving the wisher in time, which the resolution clearly does not do.

lowered ability scores (say "intelligence or other attributes" to stay in character), forced behavior the individual cannot stop, change of alignment or pesonality, loss or changing of memories, loss of the wisher's ability to think for him/her/itself, or loss of any motor, physical, language, or mental skills whatsoever under any circumstances, even if the wisher asked for it and especially if the wisher didn't. Of course, what happens after the wish has been granted doesn't count, so if the wisher really wants to be impaled through the heart, the wisher can do it him/her/itself at leisure and its none of the wish spell's damn business.

No applicable clauses here.

2-No plane shifting, teleportation, imprisonment spells, or any thing that would result in involuntarily moving the wisher or anyone else unless specifically asked for in the wish. This doesn't not mean the wish may immobilize a wisher because that would constitute a breach of rule #1 (specifically, loss of motor skills).

No problems here, you can still move around as you like, and are not plane-shifted or otherwise forced into different surroundings.

3 and 4 are really not applicable at all, so i would guess the resolution is legal as per the preceeding wish.

[Bender]

If I would allow a wish like that, the respons on the next wish would be:

"nothing happens, some basic structure in the magic fibres that constitute this universe seems to be broken"

untill someone wishes to undo the previous wish...

[Arceliar]

Or (lesser?) Wish to know exactly how to phrase your desired wish so nothing bad happens.

"I wish I knew what to wish for..."

[Gamebird]

Really, though, why is the wish spell even in the game?

For me, the question is why did they include this line in the description of Wish: "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)" It's a perfectly fine spell without that line. The only time a person gets into trouble is when they try to grab for more than the spell grants.

What every DM should do is simply say "A wish produces the effects listed and no others." and "No, you cannot Wish for anything greater, dangerous or not. Well... you can Wish for it, but nothing will happen. It's like saying you want your normal, unmetamagicked Fireball spell to be 300' diameter. It doesn't happen."

[Quietus]

I like the idea of seeing how long someone can go while saying all of that with a single breath. Though the Wish spell (Miracle, as well, for kicks) is a Standard action. I'll be pleasant enough with wishes... I think I'd give players either 25 words if they wanted to write it down, OR, I'll get a watch, and they have six seconds. Up to them. If they can't say what they wish for in six seconds, too bad, it's too complicated. Best case scenario, wish fails, you lose exp. I'll be lenient, of course, if they go a second or two over, but I'm not going to wait for someone to recite legal clauses.

[RandomNPC]

how about we turn the OP into

"i wish for all future wishes to have the outcome i intend, not what i exactly stated, unless i do somehow exactly state what i am in fact wishing for"

then you wish for imortality, become a lich who doesn't need a soul hidey place, the end of exestance comes around, and you are stuck floating in the great nothing for a hundred milenia untill the next great creation. thus becoming the one who directs all creation (the next DM).

yes, i just outlined how to wish to become the DM. i beleive i have taken epic progression into my geek/nerd multi-classing.

[Thoughtbot360]

Actually, I orignally included a clause that threatened to bring horrible consequences to the wish source for breaking the rules. As a fail-safe, I tell the party that if my wish doesn't work to wish for no wishes (and possibly horrible catastrophes upon the wish source for being a giantic douchebag).

Hmm, lots of interesting possibilities here, but most likely that wish will just Feeblemind you with no curing possible. After all, all further wishes you are able to make (none, that is) will follow the Guidelines laid down. :)

Congrats, TerraNova! You've just added a "including this wish" clause to the debug wish! I'm writing this down from memory, you know.

If the DM is determined to screw you over, he can.

Then I have no choice but to become a complete smeghead ........or just leave the group.

...provided he could say the entire thing in a single breath. Wherever he paused to inhale, the Wish would terminate. It'd make things interesting.

-What about a wish via telepathy, message, Or illusion? How about writing it down?

*speaking quickly yet clearly* I wish all our wishes conformed to the rules on this paper. *points to paper dealing the debug wish* (note how I said "all our wishes, that includes this one)

However, now that you've set a rule, your players have to make all their wishes in one breath. Have they already made a wish? Was it a more than a sentence? Then why didn't you cut their wishes off?

Actually, I have to say that I just find wish spells to be so....stupid. If I ever got away with the debug wish with say, a debug wish, here's what I would do with a ring of three wishes:

1) Debug wish
2) I wish every intelligent creature had Timeless body, a tarrasque's regeneration and immunities, and their bodies were a completely self-succifent source of energy and other neccesities of life(making them unkillable and ending the need for air, water, and food...OMG I just broke the game! AAAAHHHHH!!!)
3) I wish for an end to wish magic.......DAMMIT! (Paradise ends as I have "unintentionally" *wink, wink* undone my old wish, therefore saving the campaign. The characters groan, the DM and players who liked the game cheer!)

I would do all those wishes to demonstrate my hatred of wish magic. Actually, even if my character fails, someone in the campaign world should've figured out a debug wish that works. The "screw you over" aspect of greedy wishes is based on the wish twisting your worlds. If anything, you could do this (notice I'm using the PHB examples): Instead of wishing for a staff of might, because you know you will be sent to some cranky old evil wizard, you can say "I wish the weakest owner of a staff of might in the world be teleported to me (and my highly-armed companions) this instant." Also, you can get rid of any NPC by saying "I wish (insert bad guy's name here) lived forever" If the DM suddenly suspends the "screw you over" aspect when, and makes the villain immortal (cause that screws you over), you get to say "I wish the exact same wish effect that befell (NPC) befell me, too!" If the DM then weasals the wish on back over and sends you to an extra-dimensional prison, its Exploding Clone time!

[Thoughtbot360]

how about we turn the OP into

"i wish for all future wishes to have the outcome i intend, not what i exactly stated, unless i do somehow exactly state what i am in fact wishing for"

then you wish for imortality, become a lich who doesn't need a soul hidey place, the end of exestance comes around, and you are stuck floating in the great nothing for a hundred milenia untill the next great creation. thus becoming the one who directs all creation (the next DM).

yes, i just outlined how to wish to become the DM. i beleive i have taken epic progression into my geek/nerd multi-classing.

not bad at all, RandomNPC.

[kellandros]

See the open source wish solution:

http://www.homeonthestrange.com/view.php?ID=48

[Thoughtbot360]

See the open source wish solution:

http://www.homeonthestrange.com/view.php?ID=48

What!? What are you saying!? This forum isn't an elaborate ruse to make some kind of perfect wish by workshoping the debug wish and tempering it with everyone else's imput!

[Lapak]

My point still stands:

1. The Wish spell and related effects have pretty strict limitations as to what they can do. One of the points listed if you try to overreach is not just twisting but partial fulfillment; even if you arrange to be less screwed over, the wish will outright fail if you push it past its boundary.

2. This hardly matters, because DM fiat transcends even the most elaborately-phrased Wish spell. (Note: I don't think wish-twisting is a good thing, but if you're this concerned about it presumably the DM you're working with is.) Presented with the most ironclad Wish protection statement imaginable, the DM could determine that (through an amazing coincidence!) it translates phrase-for-phrase into "Please, I want all my wishes to screw me over ten times as badly" in the Brimstone dialect of Old Demonic, incidentally the native tongue of the creator of the ring; naturally wishes in that language take precedence.

Just don't overreach, and unless your DM is really unreasonable there will be no issues.

[Bender]

How about writing it down?

*speaking quickly yet clearly* I wish all our wishes conformed to the rules on this paper. *points to paper dealing the debug wish* (note how I said "all our wishes, that includes this one)

My MD's respons would be: "after wishing you can't help feeling you should have specified exactly in which language you wrote the text... So who wants to try another wish?"

the DM could determine that (through an amazing coincidence!) it translates phrase-for-phrase into "Please, I want all my wishes to screw me over ten times as badly" in the Brimstone dialect of Old Demonic, incidentally the native tongue of the creator of the ring; naturally wishes in that language take precedence.

The effect would be similar to this...

[The_Snark]

Congrats, TerraNova! You've just added a "including this wish" clause to the debug wish! I'm writing this down from memory, you know.

If I were a DM who didn't want to just invoke DM Fiat and say "No, that doesn't work," there's the rule I'd pick at. The wish spell's effect doesn't come into play until after it's cast; it can't debug itself until afterwards, meaning that it's perfectly legal for this Wish to screw up during casting. It's a fine point and certainly arguable, but backed up by the DM's formidible, "That's ridiculous" and "No" arguments it should suffice.

[Quietus]

ThoughtBot; If my players wished for all their wishes to conform to the hundred legal clauses on that peice of paper, as a DM, I'd allow it. Of course, the legal clauses on that peice of paper would become something to the effect of :

"Primary inescapable clause : Misuse of the Wish spell will bring forth Divine Wrath, as punishment for tampering with the fabric of the Multiverse.

That is all."

[NullAshton]

If someone tries using wish outside the 'safe' uses of wish, it either twists them, or if that's not possible, it simply doesn't work.

Anyway, the problem with the debug wish now is that it doesn't specify how long the wish has to last. Wish to be the tarrasque? Congrats, you just had a polymorph spell cast on you to turn you into a tarrasque.

[pestilenceawaits]

I actually have to split from the group on this one. I have always loved the process of specifically wording wishes when playing a wish. I only do it after my characters have been burned in game or have some other reason to think they may be burned. As a DM it is just as much fun to throw twists at the careless or greedy player who tries to take it to far. I never use a wish to make a player unplayable or not have fun but if they aren't careful they could find them self on a side quest that helps them get out of their current mess.

[Noneoyabizzness]

bah wishing for immortality without imbellishment makes for less interesting forms of immortality. I mean one might be technically imortal as a noncorporeal outsider. one may becoem a quasi diety connected with a nonsensical portfolio that requires constant overhearing of some commonly used profanity, or perhaps the groundhog day version of immortality.

debugging the wish spell offers little to the dm's imagination, which in turn offers little t0 the players who dare play the wish game.

[Thoughtbot360]

bah wishing for immortality without imbellishment makes for less interesting forms of immortality. I mean one might be technically imortal as a noncorporeal outsider. one may becoem a quasi diety connected with a nonsensical portfolio that requires constant overhearing of some commonly used profanity, or perhaps the groundhog day version of immortality.

debugging the wish spell offers little to the dm's imagination, which in turn offers little t0 the players who dare play the wish game.

Ah, but then, without a debug wish, you have to deal with the Monkey's paw rule:

Monkey's Paw Rule. When players get wishes, the gamemaster will make every attempt to pervert the wording of the wish into something harmful (usually by interpreting the wish as literally as possible). Legendarily true in D&D games. This often leads to players taking several minutes (and multiple breaths) to recite a once-simple wish, in order to close every possible loophole that could screw them. (Example: "I wish for a Girdle Of Storm Giant Strength that doesn't have a storm giant or anything else already in it and that doesn't already belong to someone else and that isn't cursed and that I will receive immediately and that will remain in my possession and not just vanish or disintegrate or whatever [inhale] and that..." ad nauseum.)

Here's how I would handle wishes:

*Somewhere in some random dungeon populated by Ogre-magi.*
DM: The stone Falcon stirs and talks to you. "Greetings, mortals. Since you have awakened me from my slumber, I will grant you each one wish."
PC Wizard: Group huddle! *whispering* He's gonna screw us over. We have to make sure to word it very carefully so he doesn't twist our wishes.
PC Fighter: Don't worry, I got this one. *Ahem* I wish for a Girdle of Storm Giant Strength that doesn't have a sto-
Falcon: You know I'm just a big diversion, right?
PCs: Guh-wah?
DM: About 10 Ogres with Ogre-sized longspears, accompained by an Ogre Mage have snuck up from behind you via a secret door in the dungeon and have surronded you.
PC Fighter: But...what about my wish?
Falcon: .........
Ogre Mage: Programmed Image, stupid human.


Besides, I hate the cliche of magic wishes going horribly wrong. It suggests that its the wishers fault for trusting in magic. Like the story is up its own ass with morals. Thing is, you only have two plot twists with magical wishes, and you need create conflict or you don't have a story:

Wishes that screw you over: We know the type. More often then not you end up having to "Un-wish" your previous wish! This is routinely demonstrated in the cartoon "Fairly Oddparents."

The Genie in the lamp: The wishes don't screw you over, per say. But with a limitation of causing direct damage or manipulation, the hero spends his first two wishes not really getting anywhere and then the bad guy steals the lamp. *rolls eyes* The hero's last wish is spent either patching up the damage the villian created or releasing the genie (who leaves, the ungrateful bastard).

In my DMing example, its implied that wishes are simply non-existant.

Edit: As an homage to the now-closed Twist my wish forum, what would you do if the player said: "I wish for all my ability scores to be double what they are now and don't twist my words! Seriously, stop it."

[Noneoyabizzness]

no the monkey paw is a bit cliched, but the idea of not ever twisting a wish is just obscenely overpowering.

most times, a wish isn't worth twisting. but stuff like immortality is just fun to work over. (the quasidiety of profanity is jsut hilarious if overpowered, as they hear 5 minutes worth of every conversation that involves profanity, but its a fun form of immortality. as it leaves them always slightly distracted.)

[Jack Mann]

If someone makes a wish in my games, I look at what they ask for. If it's within the bounds of the spell, it happens with no problems. If it's not from that list, but seems to be on the same level of power, again, it happens with no problems.

It's when it's more powerful that I start to look for ways to hit 'em. And if it's too powerful, it doesn't matter how you phrased it. This is not because the wish is trying to hurt you, this is the spell overextending itself and then snapping back from the strain and hitting the wisher in the teeth. It's already failing to grant it exactly as you wished.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Lemme see...no temporal displacement? Sure, you are now frozen in time.

[Thoughtbot360]

Lemme see...no temporal displacement? Sure, you are now frozen in time.

Out of curiousity, how is that not temporal displacement? Does time as a whole stop?

[TerraNova]

Displacement implies that you are displaced - that is, put to some point in time you do not belong. Freezing you in time (as i previously suggested ;) ) does not put you anywhere else, it in fact inhibits you from naturally "displacing" along the flow of time.

Hair-splitting? Perhaps, but this is what wish-abuses usually get, at least from me :)

[Thoughtbot360]

Displacement implies that you are displaced - that is, put to some point in time you do not belong. Freezing you in time (as i previously suggested ;) ) does not put you anywhere else, it in fact inhibits you from naturally "displacing" along the flow of time.

Hair-splitting? Perhaps, but this is what wish-abuses usually get, at least from me :)

But one of the things I wonder about is not PC abuse, but NPC abuse. Who's going to say Asmodeus hasn't been granting wishes to greedy mortals, watching them die, and recording how they worded it, trying to break the art of over-extensive wishing down to an exact science, so that, some century or another, he finally figures it out, kills the Guinea pig before he can make another wish, and wishes for ultimate power? Or, at least, he creates a spell thats technically equal to power of an 8th-level spell, yet is wholely different and gives him the advantage of surprise. With 30 Intelligence and plenty of time, he, or any number of superbeings in your campaign world, might be spending resources to crack the wish code right now.

YOU ARE NOT PREPARED!
-Illidan, The Burning Crusade