Gestalt?

[lumberofdabeast]

I see the term "gestalt" tossed around the forums a lot, and I have no idea what it means. Is it a different game system? A d20 variant? I checked the terminology thread, but to no avail.

Could someone please enlighten me?

[YPU]

Its a variant from unearthed arcane, it effectively stacks two classes together.
You get the best BaB, Best hit die, Best skill points, a combined skill list and class ability’s from both the classes.

[Yuki Akuma]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...Characters.htm

[Ramza00]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...Characters.htm
Note if you are playing Gestalt, the enemies should also be Gestalt.

[Orzel]

It's a variant usually found when groups are small. Instead of choosing 1 class each level you choose 2. You only take the better HD, saves, Skill points, and BAB of the 2 classes you choose and share the class features and skill lists.

A fighter4/rogue4 has the fighter's HP and BAB, the rogue's skill points per level, both of thier class skills, the fighter's 3 feats, the rogue 2d6 SA, trapfinding, and evasion, and good Fort and Reflex saves.

I'm sure some SRD linked by now

[Draz74]

A fighter4//rogue4

Fixed. (It's traditional to designate Gestalt "multiclassing" with a double slash.)

[Roderick_BR]

Oh, I was going to ask the same (couldn't find it on the acronisms thread, but I didnt look well). An interesting take, like 2nd edition's dual multiclassing.
Heh, I know a friend that would go for a Fighter/Barbarian. Rage with all the feats you could want.

[InaVegt]

Oh, I was going to ask the same (couldn't find it on the acronisms thread, but I didnt look well). An interesting take, like 2nd edition's dual multiclassing.
Heh, I know a friend that would go for a Fighter/Barbarian. Rage with all the feats you could want.

Not terribly effective (too much overlap), I prefer Barbarian//battle sorcerer, d12 HD, two good saves, decent skills. good BAB, full spellcasting, armor, rage for when you don't want to/have no need to cast spells.

[pestilenceawaits]

I was looking at the Warblade// Psion as a pretty good combo d12 hd, good intelligence synergy.

[its_all_ogre]

psion goes with any warrior type class.
ranger is awesome in terms of all good saves, evasion and huge skill points.
frequently gestalt makes the weaker classes in normal dnd much stronger.

fighter for example gives you tons of bonus feats that are extra valuable in gestalt. ranger and many other classes give two good saves.

[Fax Celestis]

Warblade//Swordsage is Maneuverist-on-Crack. Meanwhile, my current favorite?

Duskblade 13/Enlightened Fist 7//Wizard 5/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Wizard 10.

[Zincorium]

It's important to remember that with how gestalt is typically used (for fewer numbers of people, usually 2 or 3), you're going to have to work to at least cover the 4 archetypes with less than four characters.

So a barbarian//fighter is a bad combo for the following reasons:
1. Only fills one possible role, and only does so slightly better than a non-gestalt barbarian.
2. Lots of overlap in class features, all fighter gives you is a single class feature. You're not getting anywhere near the potential that exists in gestalt.


A much better option for a similiar character is Barbarian//Rogue variant from UA that gets feats instead of SA.

This character has the same feats, same BAB, same hit dice, and the same barbarian class features as the barbarian//fighter. However, it also gains the 8+int skill points, evasion, trapfinding, and the rogue special abilities.

It's a very playable character, despite an obvious lack of synergy compared to most of the other builds displayed. Caster//rogue or tank is probably the best of both worlds option, since you have all the game winningness of a full caster with either increased durability or abilities which let you save on spells (trapfinding, lockpicking, stealth).

[Turcano]

If you're going to use gestalt builds, there are a few ground rules that will help you along:

MAD is bad. Multiple ability dependency is something that you really need to watch out for, especially if you have caster classes in the mix. Regardless of what UA says, sorcerer//wizard is sucky; archivist//wizard or archivist//artificer are much better. In the same way, a paladin//wizard is a bad idea, since the paladin suffers from MAD already and wizard just adds to it; a wizard needs Int (for spellcasting - doy), and a paladin needs just about everything besides Int (Str and Con for fighting, Wis for spellcasting, Cha for divine grace; Dex is nice but not as necessary). You can do this, but you'll need to develop one side of your build at the expense of the other, which is kind of dumb, or you'll suck lemons.

Normal stacking rules apply. Identical features from different classes overlap; the feature progresses as the fastest of your classes does. Don't try to make anything like a rogue//sneak-attack fighter, since you're pretty much just a sneak-attack fighter.

Dual-progression prestige classes do not work that way. If you think you can make a cleric 10/mystic theurge 10//wizard 20 and have 30 wizard caster levels or a cleric 10/mystic theurge 10//wizard 10/rogue 10 and get "free" CL and sneak attack, think again. If DMs let these classes in at all, the CL advancement overlaps with the normal progression (see above).

Don't overlap strengths, complement them. You want your build to make an improvement on your hit dice, BAB, and save bonuses, that's a no-brainer. As has already been pointed out, barbarian//fighter is suboptimal because the barbarian only brings a slightly higher hit die (d12 vs. d10) to the table; your BAB and saves are exactly the same. Sure, you'll get rage, but that's a poor trade-off for not getting something like, say, cleric spells. Complementing strengths while not compounding MAD is a bit tricky sometimes, but you should at least try. On the same note, try to find a class that compensates for your other class's weak spots; for instance, if your first class is a wizard, every other class besides sorcerer is a step up in that regard.

[Fax Celestis]

Good gestalt combinations I can think of are:

Monk//Cleric, for Wis-synergy and the ability to attack with stunning fisted touch spells.

Paladin//Sorceror, for Cha-synergy, arcane and divine casting, and a d10 hd.

Barbarian//Rogue, which doesn't have much stat synergy, but it does let you sneak attack a raging strike and give you a metric ton of skillage.

Duskblade//Wizard, for Int-synergy, casting in armor, and arcane channeling

Beguiler//Specialist Wizard banning Enchantment and Illusion: you get spontaneous casting of your banned spells, and planned casting of all your others; Int-synergy, and 6+Int skill points!

Spellthief//Battle Sorceror, for sneak attack, spell thievery, d8 HD, full casting and half-casting (both CHA-based), and a single martial weapon proficiency.

[Roderick_BR]

Warblade//Swordsage is Maneuverist-on-Crack.

I thought about that too, but I thought it was too much overkill :p
I ought to try a paladin//sorcerer sometime...

[brian c]

on the topic of gestalt, i have a question about bonus spells. suppose you have a gestalt character with two spellcasting classes, and both classes have the same spellcasting ability, say sorceror//dread necromancer when both have bonus spells by charisma; do you get bonus spells for each class? that would be a ridiculous number of spells (especially if they were both spontaneous classes), but i guess that's one of the things that happens in gestalt games.

[TheOOB]

I played a crusader/favored soul that mad me very very happy. Between full divine casting and devoted spirit I was virtually immortal.

[NullAshton]

Right now having fun with a Sorcerer//Paladin kobold. Kobolds are fun and all, especially sorcerer kobolds. But then combine the paladin ideals with kobolds?

[Yuki Akuma]

on the topic of gestalt, i have a question about bonus spells. suppose you have a gestalt character with two spellcasting classes, and both classes have the same spellcasting ability, say sorceror//dread necromancer when both have bonus spells by charisma; do you get bonus spells for each class? that would be a ridiculous number of spells (especially if they were both spontaneous classes), but i guess that's one of the things that happens in gestalt games.

Uuh... why wouldn't you?

[TheOOB]

Sure you get a huge amount of spells while dual spellcasting gestalt, but you still can only cast 1 spell a round, and theres no way you'll go through em all before the end of the day.

[Turcano]

Sure you get a huge amount of spells while dual spellcasting gestalt, but you still can only cast 1 spell a round, and theres no way you'll go through em all before the end of the day.

Yeah. This is one of the main reasons why sorcerer//wizard sucks so bad; you don't really need to cast over 100 spells off of the same list in a single day.

[Rumda]

and if your DM lets you gestalt La and racial hit die....

[its_all_ogre]

actually i find that the dreaded monk/cleric sucks quite badly.
my group consist(ed) of a barbarian//scout, monk//cleric, druid//scout and the paladin//sorcerer.
the monk only really added a mobile healing force. think about it you lose the clerics ability to wear armour and acquire a need for good dex, as well as moderate int(skills) and cha(turn undead)
clerics do not suffer from mad, adding monks makes them suffer from it.
the scout on the other hand is awesome in gestalt with any class that has high maneuvarability. skirmish damage does not hurt everything its true, but a charging leap attacking barbarian with skirmish damage just rocks!

[Indon]

Monk//Druid synergizes much better than Monk//Cleric, and is my personal favorite gestalt combo.

[AaronH]

Monk // Paladin with Vow of Poverty.....

I know it isn't the most powerful, but it is just cool!

[brian c]

Monk // Paladin with Vow of Poverty.....

I know it isn't the most powerful, but it is just cool!

My current character in (non-gestalt) campaign is Monk/Paladin with VoP! Gestalt would make it better, and yeah it's just a cool concept I think. I have Ascetic Knight to stack levels so it ends up being slightly closer to Gestalt than just multiclassing

[Ramza00]

and if your DM lets you gestalt La and racial hit die....

Well I will gladly break out my monster manual 2 and 3.5 update.

Having a 5 hd Slyph (HD on one side, LA on the other) with outsider HD and casts as a 9th lvl sorcerer. (Slyph goes from 3 hd to 9 hd, sorcerer casting is based off this outsider hd)

All good saves, Full Bab, d8 hit points, 8 skill points per level, Darkvision out to 60 feet, profienct with all martial weapons, does not need to eat breathe or sleep...

[Fax Celestis]

Well I will gladly break out my monster manual 2 and 3.5 update.

Having a 5 hd Slyph (HD on one side, LA on the other) with outsider HD and casts as a 9th lvl sorcerer. (Slyph goes from 3 hd to 9 hd, sorcerer casting is based off this outsider hd)

I'd go for the MM-IV and grab myself a Redspawn Arcaniss, or maybe a Greenspawn Sneak.

[Ramza00]

I'd go for the MM-IV and grab myself a Redspawn Arcaniss, or maybe a Greenspawn Sneak.

Lets see

Slyph: 3 HD+5LA (put the LA on the other side) HD can be progress to 9HD. Casts as sorcererer whose creature HD+4.
Redspawn Arcaniss 8HD+4LA (put the LA on the other side) casts as a 6th lvl sorcerer
Greenspawn Sneak 2HD+4LA (put the LA on the other side)

The slyph is far superior. It can get you (if you are allowed to put LA on one side and the HD on the other) you can cast 9th lvl spells at lvl 14. At lvl 6 casts as a 10th lvl sorcerer thus 5th lvl spells while others are casting 3rd lvl spells. Besides this superior spellcasting you get:

• 3 lvls of Outsider HD Air can be progress to 9 hd, (thus good bab, d8 hps, saves, 8 skillpoints), appearance is like a pixie but you are so much better than a pixie
• Fly 90 Good
• At will Improved Invisibility Self only (3.0 spell, its the same as Greater Invisibility but it lasts mins/lvl instead of rounds/lvl)
• Summon Monster VI to summon a large elemental 1/day
• Str -2, Dex +2, Con -2, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +6
• LA of 5 (put the LA all on one side opposite of your outsider hd)

[Fax Celestis]

Oh, entirely granted for sylph's superiority. I just think Arcaniss' are cool. That, and their HD stacks with Sorceror casting.