Great Vice article about creeper DMs

[obryn]

http://www.vice.com/read/notallrolep...ungeon-masters

Fortunately, I've not seen this kind of awfulness in person - well, not since I was like 12. I run a much cleaner table than that, and nothing like this would ever fly with me. But I'm glad to see a major media corporation bringing the creeps who undermine the hobby into the light of day, because this sort of awfulness does happen. And it needs to stop.

[Libertad]

It's not just creeper GMs, there are players and fans on message boards who argue for "freedom of speech" to say awful things, game designers and writers who insert inappropriate sexual themes which can be traumatic to readers with no warning beforehand (CthulhuTech, I'm looking at you), and forums with members who cry "political correctness gone mad!" at minority and LGBT representation.

The problem is that it's easy to imagine that such folks are a tiny, insignificant group, but even a small number of dedicated folk can ruin a person's enthusiasm, wreck a message board community, or otherwise have people too afraid to challenge their attitudes. Silence is then seen as a form of consent, that their toxicity is tolerated.

Look at the old late 90s TSR policy that the iconic fighter had to be a white male; look at the ravings against "Story-Gaming Swine" by one of 5th Edition's paid consultants; look at bloggers who ask why we treat rape worse than murder and assume that the former isn't an act of violence. There's a lot of bad apples in the tabletop fandom who are ignored or treated leniently.

Some of these issues might not be directly related, per se, but they all have the same effect: they can (and do) drive people away from the hobby.

[Knaight]

http://www.vice.com/read/notallrolep...ungeon-masters

Fortunately, I've not seen this kind of awfulness in person - well, not since I was like 12. I run a much cleaner table than that, and nothing like this would ever fly with me. But I'm glad to see a major media corporation bringing the creeps who undermine the hobby into the light of day, because this sort of awfulness does happen. And it needs to stop.

I've been lucky enough to avoid this entirely, but I know enough people who haven't to have some idea of the prevalence. It's good to see this crap getting slammed, though it's damage control at best given the state of the wider culture.

[veti]

I'm not sure "this sort of awfulness" can ever be stopped. There will always be new people coming into the hobby, and a significant proportion of those will be people aged 12-14, and a significant, likely dominant, proportion of those will be boys. I think it's frankly unrealistic to invite people in that demographic to create their own fantasy world where anything goes, and then not expect it to include sexual content that would make any sane adult gag.

The game art has been getting a lot less sexualised, and that's a good thing. But there's only so far you can go, without basically neutering the whole game. Would you want to see such well-rooted traditional elements as the succubus, siren, dryad, nymph and satyr written out? How about the minotaur, the offspring of a bull and a human woman? And let's not even discuss the behaviour of certain gods...

[obryn]

Would you want to see such well-rooted traditional elements as the succubus, siren, dryad, nymph and satyr written out? How about the minotaur, the offspring of a bull and a human woman? And let's not even discuss the behaviour of certain gods...

I think in general it's most important to keep out the rapey stuff. Especially if the new players are, as you say, 12-14 year old boys.

The rest of it is a culture change, and it's not like the books are powerless on that count. Check out the stuff on sex and gender, for example, in the Basic set. Some good advice about "hey, DMing isn't meant for you to live out your power fantasies" would go a ways, too.

Mostly, though, I think it's important for gamers themselves to speak up against sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. when they encounter it.

[Super Evil User]

This reminds me of a comic where the DM had a pee fetish and was injecting it into the game.

[Airk]

The game art has been getting a lot less sexualised, and that's a good thing. But there's only so far you can go, without basically neutering the whole game. Would you want to see such well-rooted traditional elements as the succubus, siren, dryad, nymph and satyr written out? How about the minotaur, the offspring of a bull and a human woman? And let's not even discuss the behaviour of certain gods...

So skip those gods. Minotaurs can be a self sustaining race. And I for one don't think the "mythos" or whatever is at all diminished by the absence of the succubus. :P

Is there only so far you can go? Sure. But we're nowhere near that point. And you know, maybe the whole 'half orc' thing should get a little bit of thought put in...

[obryn]

This reminds me of a comic where the DM had a pee fetish and was injecting it into the game.

No thread about creepy gamers is complete without The Whizzard!

[Libertad]

I'm not sure "this sort of awfulness" can ever be stopped. There will always be new people coming into the hobby, and a significant proportion of those will be people aged 12-14, and a significant, likely dominant, proportion of those will be boys. I think it's frankly unrealistic to invite people in that demographic to create their own fantasy world where anything goes, and then not expect it to include sexual content that would make any sane adult gag.

Except that a lot of these creeper DMs are grown-ass men. Like those idiots who send out death and rape threats to women gamers, there's a lot of adults engaging in bad behavior, too.

And doom-saying that it can never be stopped is effectively letting it go unchecked. League of Legends has taken strides in banning bigoted players with some success; Pathfinder Society has rules which prevent this kind of behavior as well, complete with threats of expulsion. Stopping these attitudes can be done effectively if game publishers and communities ostracize bad groups.

[Airk]

And doom-saying that it can never be stopped is effectively letting it go unchecked. League of Legends has taken strides in banning bigoted players with some success; Pathfinder Society has rules which prevent this kind of behavior as well, complete with threats of expulsion. Stopping these attitudes can be done effectively if game publishers and communities ostracize bad groups.

And change in your community starts with you.

Fortunately, there's a super easy phrase that shuts down a LOT of this crap. I suggest: "Not cool, man." in a somewhat disappointed tone. If an individual fails to correct himself after this, well, then, sadly, you may have to escalate.

[Knaight]

I'm not sure "this sort of awfulness" can ever be stopped. There will always be new people coming into the hobby, and a significant proportion of those will be people aged 12-14, and a significant, likely dominant, proportion of those will be boys. I think it's frankly unrealistic to invite people in that demographic to create their own fantasy world where anything goes, and then not expect it to include sexual content that would make any sane adult gag.

It's hardly fair to blame this sort of creepiness on teenagers. Plenty of adults are involved, and there's a big difference between gross sexual content and the targeted sexual violence described here.

[Sith_Happens]

Holy crap, that random "encounter" table looked like something out of FATAL.

[Kid Jake]

Holy crap, that random "encounter" table looked like something out of FATAL.

In all fairness to the table, it seems like 90% of my campaigns have had at least one moment where a player just drunkenly shouts 'To the whores!' and bolts off to the red light district to find someone to mug and/or swap exotic STDs with (like Pokemon, you've gotta catch'em all) so it's nice to know whether they encounter a trollop or a tart before I start calculating CR.

But then I'm an enabler of terrible behavior, so any conversation about decency might be outta my wheelhouse.

[Synar]

and forums with members who cry "political correctness gone mad!" at minority and LGBT representation.

I think we've seen such a thing on a certain forum discussing a certain comic strip.

[Stuebi]

It's allways scary reading stuff like this and never actually walked into one of these people. At least, never to such a degree.

Fortunately, there's a super easy phrase that shuts down a LOT of this crap. I suggest: "Not cool, man." in a somewhat disappointed tone. If an individual fails to correct himself after this, well, then, sadly, you may have to escalate.

Also, I want to point out that I heavily agree with this. If something in your group goes into uncomfortable directions, do this.

Most people snap out of it almost instantly, especially if the group consists of friends. Sometimes people just dont realize that they are going too far with certain stuff, or that they are heading in a weird direction.

It actually amazes me that stuff like this even get's this far. If you pull moronities like that in my groups, i'll probably go haywire.

[Super Evil User]

Holy crap, that random "encounter" table looked like something out of FATAL.

Now now, let's not be too harsh. Nothing there was on the same level as Coke-can penises.

[TheCountAlucard]

look at the ravings against "Story-Gaming Swine" by one of 5th Edition's paid consultants...

Wait, what?

Now, I haven't been following the development of 5e, so I haven't seen this; on the other hand, I'm kinda afraid to Google it. Tell me, if I look it up, will it make me want to euthanize the human race?

[Airk]

Wait, what?

Now, I haven't been following the development of 5e, so I haven't seen this; on the other hand, I'm kinda afraid to Google it. Tell me, if I look it up, will it make me want to euthanize the human race?

5E has employed "The RPG Pundit" - an individual who you may or may not have encountered on the Interwebs, depending on what sites you visit - as some sort of "consultant"; What degree of input he has is not clear, but in some capacity, he has been paid to work on this product.

This is an individual who routinely rants in savage, degrading ways about, well, basically anyone who likes different games than he does. He refers to them as "Swine". You can get good information on this topic here. He's a pretty grotesque individual, and honestly, I can't understand what would have made WotC select him, out of all the people who talk about games on the Internet, to be a consultant on their game.

[Segev]

In all fairness to the table, it seems like 90% of my campaigns have had at least one moment where a player just drunkenly shouts 'To the whores!'

I've seen this happen, too, though not in quite that many games. The weird thing is, it's female gamers playing the character saying that about half the time, in my experience.

Note that I have not seen too many more female gamers than is statistically probable at my tables. Maybe 1-in-20.

So I've seen about 1-in-20 gamers - half male, half female - make such a "battle cry" in a game. I'm not sure if it's just that gamer girls tend to try to act "even more like one of the boys" or what, but it's certainly not diminishing the perception that this is "acceptable" behavior.


((I should note that I'm not condoning it; I'm actually a remarkable prude about...well, most things. This is pure observation.))

[obryn]

I can't understand what would have made WotC select him, out of all the people who talk about games on the Internet, to be a consultant on their game.

Probably two big reasons. (1) to get a different set of opinions about D&D, which he's got, no matter how terrible, paranoid, and angry his writing is re: elfgames. (2) Hiring trolls insulates you (at least somewhat) from their trolling, and gets you advocates in communities which might not otherwise give you the time of day. In this case, those are some of the same communities WotC is courting, here. On the downside, you're hiring some of the most toxic voices in the RPG community, so...

In answer to TheCountAlucard, some folks have decided they can't support D&D 5e because of their paid involvement with the game's development. I think a discussion of this probably goes beyond the scope of this article.

[obryn]

In response to the topic, I had completely forgotten it, but I've actually been in a game where this happened. It was almost 20 years ago, during the 2e days, and I've had a lot of good gaming since, so it completely slipped my mind. But this was from the campaign where I got my username - I was a dwarf fighter/cleric named Obryn, and Obryn I've been ever since.

OK, so there's P. She was a terrible player, and her husband pretty much enabled her terribleness. She had a triple-classed character with about 4x the XP of anyone else at the table, despite all being on the same adventures. She liked to direct what our characters were thinking in response to what her character did ("you are stunned by my beauty"), which was no end of annoying. And she was a humongous spotlight hog who cheated on dice rolls to make sure she was always awesome. She was also - and she proclaimed this loudly to everyone in the game - "polyamorous" along with her hubby, which is fine and dandy until...

Well, our original DM was awful and boring, so eventually she took over running the game. Which we thought was fine, I guess, since she basically stole control from the DM already at every turn, so why not let her run things? (This was a terrible decision.) So her PC became an NPC (ruh roh) and, naturally, the worst DMPC I've ever seen in person.

Now, she had a humongous crush on one of the players, and he was completely uninterested. So once she took over the game, she decided to ... er ... force the issue. I am pretty sure it involved rope, and I'm pretty sure it didn't get totally rapey, just weird and uncomfortably kinky and - frankly - pathetic. But that's it. And that's my story? The game only lasted for one summer, thankfully, and then I started running a much better Earthdawn campaign, minus the sketchiness.

[hamlet]

Wait, what?

Now, I haven't been following the development of 5e, so I haven't seen this; on the other hand, I'm kinda afraid to Google it. Tell me, if I look it up, will it make me want to euthanize the human race?

Wait . . . you don't already want to euthanize the human race? Am I a bad person for having this urge all the time?


Essentially, the RPGPundit is an example of a really terrible internet personality with lots of exposure considering the topic and target audience. He's an example of what most gamers like to shuffle back into the closet when we present gaming to the general public: a really bad stereotype.




As for the OP topic: yes, this is an issue. Happens all the time, though I'd also add that players are just as bad, sometimes worse. I've had players go this route very quickly and when I tried to drag them out of it I was screamed at for violating player agency and etc. So yeah. It is not tolerated at my gaming table and I've evicted more than one player for it.

The problem is not neccessarily an oversexualization or focus on violence real or implicit. It's that the nature of the game - relatively introspective, quiet, and out of the public eye - tends to attract a disproportionate number of people who have . . . shall we say . . . low social skills and the inability to filter out inappropriate behavior when they feel enabled.

On top of that, it's complicated by a lot of people, the publishers and writers included and maybe especially, confusing "edgy" with "salacious." Blood, gore, and killing and sex make it edgy, right? The assumption that if somebody isn't grossed out or just flat out offended then it isn't edgy is simply a false assumption and one that has been in operation for a LONG TIME. On top of that, the publishers assume, perhaps correctly, that the vast majority of its audience are straight young males and so include a disproportionate number of sexualized female images to cater to that impression, it tends to feed the already dangerous tendancies of some of the worst of us.

[thematgreen]

In one game we had a GM who forced a female player to be raped. She was more than capable of defending herself but the NPC had plot armor and did the deed. Nobody liked that becuase it took away control of her character for no game related reason and was out of character for the situation.

The GM was mad that my character discovered this, hunted the guy and chopped off his head, and sent it to the players character in a box (It was his way of defending her).

[JadedDM]

I'm glad to say I've never had to deal with this sort of thing before in my own games, largely because I am the DM 99% of the time. I wouldn't tolerate that kind of behavior from any of my players.

[thematgreen]

I'm glad to say I've never had to deal with this sort of thing before in my own games, largely because I am the DM 99% of the time. I wouldn't tolerate that kind of behavior from any of my players.

I don't tolerate it in my games either. We had a guy join our campaign. He was just a rule lawyering, power gaming, jerk. He was rude to everyone, talked down to anyone who didn't agree with him, and flat out laughed at the new players when a silly idea was brough up. Finally he forced his character on another players female cleric. I was going just not invite him anymore and that act made me get ready to kick him out of the game and my house but she gave me a note which said something like "Remember, I am a priestess of a god of both healing AND disease".

That player was inflicted with excelerated forms of every STD, at once. His character rotted from the crotch, outwards. The only one that could cure him was the cleric who he forced himself on...needless to say he rotted to nothing and then was asked to leave.

[sktarq]

This part of the game sucks. . . I've dealt with it plenty. I mean dealt with it. What I really hate is how often it is used as a "filtered" version of the relationship between the player and DM (ST, Gm, whatever). That really bothers me. And yes some local version of "Not cool, bro" does work a lot of the time. Do I think it will ever be eradicated? No but with effort it can be significantly reduced and brought to a level that doesn't impinge the game's enjoyment for so many that it is a cultural problem. As for players doing it (which I would say happens MORE than DM's doing it I think it is up the the DM to shut that down (And they usually do TBH). One thing I've noticed is that when the game get railroady about the subject (which is usually where abuses really are the DM's wish) it is best to get other players on board and just go around it any way you can. Even if it means abandoning the story/adventure and looking for new work, but for that to work the other players have to be on board and supportive-which is a big thing to work to set up ahead of time if things get creepy.


Also I've never had a lack of female players in games I run (currently they outnumber the guys in my WoD game) so it is something I've been aware of for longer than I was thinking of girls being more than coodie monsters physically. And I couldn't tell you why (I've always suspected it was having actual female friends to invite but have no empirical evidence)

[Airk]

I'd love to agree with you, sktarq, but I can't, mostly because I read that three times and still have no idea what you are trying to say. -_-

[Lost Demiurge]

I've actually gotten compliments from my female players for running a "not-creepy" table, and not treating them differently because of their gender. It was kind of a good/bad compliment, good in that they felt comfy with me GMing, bad in that it made me sad that they'd had bad experiences with a few other people around the local scene.

Honestly, one of the things that attracted me to gaming so many years ago, was that it was a hobby where your age, gender, skin color, physical fitness, or all that really didn't matter so much. It's all about how you play well with others.

But yeah, I've never had any regrets about running a "clean" table. No rape, whether it be initiated by PC's or NPC's, and any in-game hanky-panky is treated as a "fade to black" moment. TBH, I don't even have to spell those rules out most of the time, they just don't come up.

[sktarq]

I'd love to agree with you, sktarq, but I can't, mostly because I read that three times and still have no idea what you are trying to say. -_-

*snicker* okay point taken. Possibly confusing because it was a mash-up of quickly vented ideas. I'll try this again.

The issue raised in the article is one I am all too familiar with and one I find highly vexing.
While I find the issue to be problematic overall many of these situations are not about the character or story but an issue where what is going on in the game (the sexual harassment or worse of the female character by a NPC) is a stand in for the the relationship between the female player and the DM himself (or herself, or the ST, GM etc). When such harassment is not about the DM/Player relationship it is usually about poor storytelling, bad taste, and immaturity it general and is best handled somewhat differently if initial reprimands etc don't work.
About handling this form of social bulling and emotional abuse somebody has mentioned the line "not cool, bro" as a way of guiding a DM away from something they may not have thought all the way through or whatnot. And I agree some form of this line does the job most of the time (I think every cultural group has some form of this sentiment and using the culturally appropriate one is important to make it sting instead of provoking laughter however).
Others have mentioned that they don't think that this issue can ever be expunged in the culture of the game. I'd agree with the statement but not followup statement I have heard bandied around that such pessimism/realism logically means that no effort should be undertaken to do something about it. I think any time you have a set up where 12-14 year old boys playing a fantasy game get to set their own world sexually inappropriate things are going to happen. That people can and do just buy the game and start playing by themselves means that even if the overall culture of the gaming community is totally against it a new permissive subculture (even a single game group) could recreate it at any time. So I think that the structure of the game inherently means that such problems will arise. That doesn't mean I think that keeping those ideas as fringe ideas and unfortunate rarities can't be none. I think that much of the gaming community is fine with the DM in the article's actions or at least unwilling to stand against them and that should change. "Lucy"'s experience should be rare and aberrant -and I think that is an attainable goal. If that goal is reached I think that the remaining actions of a few bad apples will not longer antagonize large parts (say female, LGTB, minorities, etc) in the way they do now on a community wide level.
I was also trying to point out that this problem is actually more prevalent at the player level in my experience. With PC - on - PC unwanted sexual tension/groping/harassment than it is between a PC and a DM-equivalent. We don't hear about it as much because most DM's are good about shutting that sort of thing down. The power relationship between PC and DM gives the PC no easy way around the problem that the DM provides for PC-PC problems.
I was also trying to toss out what I've found as the most useful general strategy for dealing with this issue in my experience as a player. Absolutely refusing even if it totally messes up the story/adventure. This is best done early as possible and is normally a sign of such harassment when the DM gets railroady about the subject. He (or she) wants the sexual scene and will do whatever to make it happen. That's the point where things have gotten abusive in my opinion and strong measures are called for. Capture and torture the NPC who is demanding the sex-for-aid transaction. Find different allies, do whatever. Run out the clock on the meeting-and the next if you have to. Or even walk away from whatever "mission" is putting this issue in front of the player who does not want it. A line is respected if it is defended. Being willing to walk away from an adventure/path/etc because of highly inappropriate content is one of the only ways to avoid the majority of this male bovine fecal matter (some stuff particularly attacker based rape event can't work with this but most can). The biggest issue with the above strategy is that the other players pay part of the cost in the disruption and so while it can be done alone it is best to get others on board as quickly as possible.

I have to say that parts of what the article talks about are unfamiliar to me. Namely the gender ratios given. Most of the games I've run have had significant female player involvement and even majorities. I have no sure fire way of explaining this discrepancy, even though it has lasted through several changes of social circles. My best running theory is having female friends in general to recommend it to (or their female friends) before play begins. My second theory has to do with the idea I never considered it a male centric hobby until I found myself, uncomfortably, in the game club at uni. I have been thinking about girls as D&D players longer than I have been thinking of them sexually, and that has influenced how I treat female gamers.

okay I think I clarified my previous statements...I hope.

[Airk]

Yes, thank you! And I agree! Well, mostly. It seems a little strange for you argue about gender ratios. It's almost as if you are saying you don't believe there are large numbers of male only gamer groups out there.