I may make my party's Cleric fall...

[DontEatRawHagis]

It's 3 days before my next session of DnD(5e). The setting I've created has a small bastion in the world protected from the interference of the gods.

No one except the gods know this. Luckily for the god of fire her faithful servant has taken refuge there.

The gods are barred from entering this location due to a barrier. All the god of fire needs is her cleric(a PC) to mark the area in the boundary with a symbol of the god with certain components.

As a reward he(PC) will get an artifact of his god.

However the god is not going to tell him that it will allow her minions into the city.

I don't know what this'll do to the PC. The player is relatively new and I'm not sure how this kind of deception will affect his play experience.

This is not a "I want to use in game to solve out of game issues". He is a cool dude and I want to tell a cool story.

I see a few options:
1. He doesn't realize he did it.
2. He rejects his god and loses his channel divinity power. (I'm not sure if I'd take all his spells away or have him roll up a new Class for this as he might be grabbed by another god)
3. He sticks with them because he wants to keep his powers.

Thoughts?

[jaydubs]

I think I'm missing some context here. Why would the cleric be upset that his god used him to gain influence in a city? Presumably, clerics have faith in their own deities, and would want to increase said deity's influence. No?

[DontEatRawHagis]

I think I'm missing some context here. Why would the cleric be upset that his god used him to gain influence in a city? Presumably, clerics have faith in their own deities, and would want to increase said deity's influence. No?

Ah yes. It's the Apocalypse. And the city has a special "God Killer" device within its boundaries.

So the God is going to burn the village down with fire elementals using the mark as a portal.

[Cazero]

I sincerely thinks that the cleric character, no matter how dumb the player is, should be able to guess the "my god tries to take over the city" part. Even if he doesn't know the city is off limits for gods, the mark as you described it seems unusual enough for allowing him a skillcheck or something to figure what exactly is going on.

If the issue is the cleric losing faith in his own divinity due to some slaughter he personally doesn't approve, offering him the opportunity to choose wether or not he actually draws the mark would really help a transition to another god. I mean, what kind of god would accept the one guy that basically gave a perfect fortress to a rival?

[Cazero]

Ah yes. It's the Apocalypse. And the city has a special "God Killer" device within its boundaries.

So the God is going to burn the village down with fire elementals using the mark as a portal.

Well, provided that, the cleric might lose faith in all and every gods.
I would suggest homebrewing an atheism themed class wich, like the blackguard with paladins, allows him to put his now useless cleric levels to some use, but that would be complicated.

[jaydubs]

Perhaps there are a few renegade gods that are trying to prevent the Apocalypse? And they can act as new patrons if he chooses to abandon his original deity?

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

This is not a "I want to use in game to solve out of game issues". He is a cool dude and I want to tell a cool story.

I see a few options:
1. He doesn't realize he did it.
2. He rejects his god and loses his channel divinity power. (I'm not sure if I'd take all his spells away or have him roll up a new Class for this as he might be grabbed by another god)
3. He sticks with them because he wants to keep his powers.

Shatter the PC's perceptions of reality. Make him realize that the gods he thought protected mortals are actually selfish and petty. It will completely change who he is and what his goals are. We're looking at Kratos The God-Slayer origin story here.

Here, go read this TVTropes page: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...instTheHeavens

This is the most epic kind of story, and to make it work he's going to have to reject the gods. And because this is a game, you have to let him keep his powers (or give him a reasonable substitution). You have two options for making the cleric retain his powers after declaring war on the gods. One is to simply say that "oh, yeah, in this setting once the divine spark is put into you the gods can't take it back until you die." The other is to have another god or primordial being who predates the gods approach him and offer him the power to mete out justice on the gods, restoring his cleric powers with possibly different domains.

Another possibility is that his god could foolishly declare him a canonized saint, which would mean that he can't lose his cleric powers no matter what.

[Flashy]

I would suggest homebrewing an atheism themed class wich, like the blackguard with paladins, allows him to put his now useless cleric levels to some use, but that would be complicated.

A cleric isn't actually required to have a god (at least in 3.5). You can be the Cleric of a cause or an ideology without needing to worship a particular deity.

[Segev]

You could have the sigil work by actively converting this cleric into a deity of Divine Rank 0 or 1. The boosts are significant even at DR 0, and at DR 1 he could grant his own spells to himself even if he lost his faith in his goddess.

The reason the sigil does this is that it basically made him his godess's avatar, providing a loophole around the "can't enter" barrier, and she used the fact she was "already in" to manifest fully rather than as an avatar, thus leaving a smidgen of her divinity within him while no longer being part of him.

[Sith_Happens]

You could have the sigil work by actively converting this cleric into a deity of Divine Rank 0 or 1. The boosts are significant even at DR 0, and at DR 1 he could grant his own spells to himself even if he lost his faith in his goddess.

The reason the sigil does this is that it basically made him his godess's avatar, providing a loophole around the "can't enter" barrier, and she used the fact she was "already in" to manifest fully rather than as an avatar, thus leaving a smidgen of her divinity within him while no longer being part of him.

This 5e, which I'm going to guess doesn't have actual deity mechanics (at least not yet). The general idea you're going for is still of course possible, though.

[DontEatRawHagis]

Supossedly they are adding Chosen. :/

I usually play Dark Sun.

[AMFV]

It's 3 days before my next session of DnD(5e). The setting I've created has a small bastion in the world protected from the interference of the gods.

No one except the gods know this. Luckily for the god of fire her faithful servant has taken refuge there.

The gods are barred from entering this location due to a barrier. All the god of fire needs is her cleric(a PC) to mark the area in the boundary with a symbol of the god with certain components.

As a reward he(PC) will get an artifact of his god.

However the god is not going to tell him that it will allow her minions into the city.

I don't know what this'll do to the PC. The player is relatively new and I'm not sure how this kind of deception will affect his play experience.

This is not a "I want to use in game to solve out of game issues". He is a cool dude and I want to tell a cool story.

I see a few options:
1. He doesn't realize he did it.
2. He rejects his god and loses his channel divinity power. (I'm not sure if I'd take all his spells away or have him roll up a new Class for this as he might be grabbed by another god)
3. He sticks with them because he wants to keep his powers.

Thoughts?

If this is the sort of thing his God is for, why would he be opposed to it? It's likely that he would view the town as an abomination anyways. It contains a device that kills a God, that's blasphemy to even speak, much less to build, even many Good deities would be opposed to that and his deity doesn't sound Good.

Why would she try to trick him? He worships her, if she's evangelical and wants to extend her influence there it's in his best interest to try to do so as well. Furthermore it doesn't sound like his deity is very interested in Personal Freedom, so he may even believe that freedom from the Gods is in and of itself an abomination.

[The Oni]

Another possibility is that his god could foolishly declare him a canonized saint, which would mean that he can't lose his cleric powers no matter what.

I really, really like this version. As a reward the character gets some artifact which, in addition to whatever boon the god sees fit to grant is a direct link between said god and her servant. As long as he's got this symbol of her gratitude, he keeps the power of the God even if she revokes all her blessings.

[DontEatRawHagis]

If this is the sort of thing his God is for, why would he be opposed to it? It's likely that he would view the town as an abomination anyways. It contains a device that kills a God, that's blasphemy to even speak, much less to build, even many Good deities would be opposed to that and his deity doesn't sound Good. .

Almost all of the Gods didn't get into their positions by playing safe. It's been 1000 years since they last manifested directly on the mortal plane.

Also the device is a bit complicated and still being flushed out in my notes. Right now it is a device to bring an end to the Apocalypse, but no one except a few of the Gods know of it's existence.

IfWhy would she try to trick him? He worships her, if she's evangelical and wants to extend her influence there it's in his best interest to try to do so as well. Furthermore it doesn't sound like his deity is very interested in Personal Freedom, so he may even believe that freedom from the Gods is in and of itself an abomination.

The player hasn't seen a lot of the world yet. Oddly enough a lot of my players haven't realized that my representation of the temples have been close minded bigots who are more interested in killing heretics than preach peace love and understanding.

My hope is that during this campaign they might shape the way the Pantheon and religions function in the future.

I really, really like this version. As a reward the character gets some artifact which, in addition to whatever boon the god sees fit to grant is a direct link between said god and her servant. As long as he's got this symbol of her gratitude, he keeps the power of the God even if she revokes all her blessings.

I'm liking this idea as well. The way clerics are setup gameplay wise is that they gain powers from the domain of their God, so it is not out of the question to do this.

I'll probably use this idea. The goddess giving him such a boon might be the misstep that could allow him to have a crisis of faith without merging his character.

[AMFV]

The player hasn't seen a lot of the world yet. Oddly enough a lot of my players haven't realized that my representation of the temples have been close minded bigots who are more interested in killing heretics than preach peace love and understanding.

Well see here the problem is that you're projecting real world things into D&D. In D&D if a religion is bigoted, then they'd probably worship Steve, the Demon God of Bigotry, and seek new and improved ways to become more bigoted like Steve. If your player is worshiping Steve then he's not likely to fall when he realizes Steve is bigoted, because the character would already know this and have embraced it.

My hope is that during this campaign they might shape the way the Pantheon and religions function in the future.

That's certainly possible, but the problem is that as written a Cleric is likely to want to preserve the function of religion and the Pantheon, since they have actively decided to serve it.

[DontEatRawHagis]

Well see here the problem is that you're projecting real world things into D&D. In D&D if a religion is bigoted, then they'd probably worship Steve, the Demon God of Bigotry, and seek new and improved ways to become more bigoted like Steve. If your player is worshiping Steve then he's not likely to fall when he realizes Steve is bigoted, because the character would already know this and have embraced it.

That's certainly possible, but the problem is that as written a Cleric is likely to want to preserve the function of religion and the Pantheon, since they have actively decided to serve it.

What happens when the faithful meet the unfaithful? In this case war. There are four or so camps: cults springing up due to the apocalypse, the holy religions, the demonic religions, and the people who stay neutral. To quote a tv show and maybe Dante, "the hottest places in hell are for those who are neutral in times of war"

A NPC cleric might but the test is if the player puts his personal code of honor before his deity.

[Yuki Akuma]

I like the "God makes him a canonized saint for his actions which, due to the way the metaphysics of the setting work, means he can keep his powers after denouncing his god" angle.

It's a pretty interesting angle.

[Sebastrd]

Is this typical behavior for said god? If so, why would the cleric be upset? If not, why is this god acting out of character?

[DontEatRawHagis]

Is this typical behavior for said god? If so, why would the cleric be upset? If not, why is this god acting out of character?

This is the first time the Gods have appeared in 1000 years. No one knows the behavior of the gods outside of legends.

It would be the equivalent of New Testament vs Old Testament. One story they're promoting peace love and understanding, the other turning people into pillars of salt and flooding the world.

[Segev]

It would be the equivalent of New Testament vs Old Testament. One story they're promoting peace love and understanding, the other turning people into pillars of salt and flooding the world.

*cough* To be fair, the two aren't as inconsistent as they sometimes seem. It's a matter of the times in which they were written, and what lessons needed learning and what parts of the scriptures had been forgotten by which peoples.

...but I'm veering into real-world religion, so let me try to pull up before I nose-dive.


If the gods have been inactive and not influencing their cults with prophecies, or even something so subtle as only granting power to those who are in alignment with their goals, then there are likely a lot of cults which are to false gods, by now, and those to true gods may have conflated two or more, or split some into multiple gods that used to just be aspects of one.

In any event, they're likely secular power structures with a religious justification, more than a reflection of their god's will and doctrines. You'll want to think on what the goals of the clergy down the centuries would be, that would shape how the religions have morphed. Certainly, a fair bit of "I want power for myself and this organization that I am part of" involved, so doctrines would get "reinterpreted" to support such things.

If a religion is more merciful and kind and loving than its patron deity would have it be, that's a strange drift for it to take, and you really should analyze WHY. Who benefited from making that shift in dogma? How did they go about it, and get others to go along with it over the more hard-line, possibly selfishness-rewarding dictates of a darker deity than the one that is now believed to be their patron?

One possibility is that there IS a good, loving, noble divinity who hid in the world and worked subtle influence. Not having a cult of his own, he infiltrated the others by empowering people with kinder hearts, inspiring them to corrupt their own teachings to be more gentle. This may have backfired, since people think their goddess is a kinder being than she is and deserves to be welcomed back...but it would also be another way for your party cleric to retain his spellcasting. This god knows the mistake he's made, but also knows the contrition in the cleric's heart (if said cleric renounces his obviously evil goddess upon realizing his error). Perhaps it is time he had a prophet of his own.

[Millennium]

You've got a fascinating idea here, but it's not the sort of thing you should surprise a player with. By all means, surprise the character, but you need player buy-in for something like this.

You don't need to worry about the player saying no here; most players actively want a DM to come up with interesting things to throw at them. What you need to worry about is the player being caught off-guard: when they don't know what you're doing, they tend to assume the worst and then take it personally. So talk this over with the player (in private, if you still want to surprise the other players) and work together to figure out the general idea of where the player wants his character to go from there. This prevents hard feelings, and it prevents the player from catching you off-guard by doing something you didn't expect.

[mephnick]

If I were to play a cleric in a homebrew campaign, I'd be pretty annoyed if the DM was like PSYCH THE GODS ARE PETTY AND CAN'T BE TRUSTED after I made my character.

You can't just drop people into a new world without explaining at least the broad defining characteristics of that world.

[DontEatRawHagis]

If I were to play a cleric in a homebrew campaign, I'd be pretty annoyed if the DM was like PSYCH THE GODS ARE PETTY AND CAN'T BE TRUSTED after I made my character.

You can't just drop people into a new world without explaining at least the broad defining characteristics of that world.

I can wait a couple more sessions before throwing it at him. I could try to get him to buy into his religion a bit more before bringing it up directly without. Hiding it. But I still he will put his friends a head of his deity.

This is a continuation of a campaign 80% of the players were in last year. The encounters with Religion revolved around:
The clergy forcing their religion upon a settlement for fear of the apocalypse.

The Paladins trying to summon and then kill a evil god with an Ancient artifact, which they had a fake of.

The clergy of the death god trying to assassinate a member of the legal Necromancer's Guild. Which the players swore to protect.

A lot of encounters with demons and other infernal creatures.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I can wait a couple more sessions before throwing it at him. I could try to get him to buy into his religion a bit more before bringing it up directly without. Hiding it. But I still he will put his friends a head of his deity.

This is a continuation of a campaign 80% of the players were in last year. The encounters with Religion revolved around:
The clergy forcing their religion upon a settlement for fear of the apocalypse.

The Paladins trying to summon and then kill a evil god with an Ancient artifact, which they had a fake of.

The clergy of the death god trying to assassinate a member of the legal Necromancer's Guild. Which the players swore to protect.

A lot of encounters with demons and other infernal creatures.

Do all of the gods have both celestials and fiends working for them? You'll have to throw the D&D Great Wheel cosmology out the window, but that could be a really telling aspect of the setting to reveal to the party.

[DontEatRawHagis]

Do all of the gods have both celestials and fiends working for them? You'll have to throw the D&D Great Wheel cosmology out the window, but that could be a really telling aspect of the setting to reveal to the party.

Sort of... I take a lot of liberties with the DnD planar stuff mostly because I can't keep it strait. The Gods are separated into the Divine and Damned.

The Damned of Winter uses Ice Demons, White Dragons, and Winter Wolves.

The Damned of Love uses Succubus and Nymphs.

Divine of Fire uses Fire Giants, Red Dragons, and Fire Elementals.

[Cikomyr]

Do all of the gods have both celestials and fiends working for them? You'll have to throw the D&D Great Wheel cosmology out the window, but that could be a really telling aspect of the setting to reveal to the party.

Yhea he would. And i dont think there is anything wrong with it, as long as its solidly constructed.

Hell, i can even see it myself: both Evil and Good servanta of the same God, each claiming to serve it the "True" way, and the deity literally having a devil and an angel to advise him for agendas and strategies.

As long as you keep concepts relatively vague and universal, there can be a good and an evil side to everything.

War has Valor vs. Rampages
Love has Caring vs. Jealousy
Life has Babies vs. Diseases
Fire has Warmth vs. Scourging

[veti]

I see a few options:
1. He doesn't realize he did it.
2. He rejects his god and loses his channel divinity power. (I'm not sure if I'd take all his spells away or have him roll up a new Class for this as he might be grabbed by another god)
3. He sticks with them because he wants to keep his powers.

4. He sticks with them because he's a faithful servant of his deity, and trusts that she knows what she's doing even if it doesn't make sense to him.
5. He sticks with them because he now realises what she's all about, and embraces it as his own character growth.

... Really, there's no call to impute a selfish motive to "a cleric being faithful to his deity".

I don't like the 'canonised saint' idea. There's a reason why, in our world at least, you can't be canonised until after your death, and I hate it when D&D just rewrites rules like that without even acknowledging them and making an effort to close the (glaringly obvious) loopholes they open, and then someone uses that loophole as if they were doing something clever... it just feels so cheap, like a punchline to a setup you could see coming three paragraphs ago.

The cleric could convert to a deity whose ethics are more to his liking. That deity would probably want him to jump through some considerable hoops, by way of atoning for his misplaced loyalty to date - but hey, that's just another plot hook. Or he could do the whole 'rage against the gods' thing and become an atheist cleric, which I personally would call an 'ur-priest' even though it means rewriting much of the fluff and possibly some of the crunch on that class.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Yhea he would. And i dont think there is anything wrong with it, as long as its solidly constructed.

Hell, i can even see it myself: both Evil and Good servanta of the same God, each claiming to serve it the "True" way, and the deity literally having a devil and an angel to advise him for agendas and strategies.

As long as you keep concepts relatively vague and universal, there can be a good and an evil side to everything.

War has Valor vs. Rampages
Love has Caring vs. Jealousy
Life has Babies vs. Diseases
Fire has Warmth vs. Scourging

Works better if the gods haven't walked the earth for a long time and nobody is sure why. You don't want to talk to the the celestials and fiends about how they haven't had any orders from the higher-ups for centuries. It's a sensitive subject.

[Sartharina]

Works better if the gods haven't walked the earth for a long time and nobody is sure why. You don't want to talk to the the celestials and fiends about how they haven't had any orders from the higher-ups for centuries. It's a sensitive subject.

I am suddenly reminded of "Red Vs. Blue" for some reason...

[Angelalex242]

Ya know, playing a cleric...I think I'd just do what my god told me to do.

Party:Won't that destroy the world?
Cleric:Don't THINK so. I'm not following a god of evil, here.
Party:Are you sure about this?
Cleric:Uh, yeah. Cleric, ya know. Have some faith.
Party:...riiiiight. If the world blows up, we're totally blaming you.

The metagame, however, might look more like this.

Cleric Player:Nah, don't worry about it, guys. If it actually destroyed the world, the GM would lose all the work he put into the campaign, and he'd have to make a new one from scratch. Why would he make that much work for himself?
Other players:Point taken. Let's do this, then!