Intimidation and Charisma

[MellowMelon]

I have heard some people on the boards commenting on the fact that Intimidation being linked to charisma causes some problems. This problem became highlighted in my d20 apocalypse game. The 8-ft tall four armed vampiric lizard mutant found himself very unintimidating compared to the charismatic hero.
This just doesn't make sense. The mutant's player saw his low Cha as his character being abrasive and unfit for most non-violent interactions. This would make him MORE scary, not less. Right? Any ideas on how to rule this? (I am completely fine with various house rules)

Thanks

[cupkeyk]

exchange str for cha as the relevant modifier is the most accepted one.

[Gamebird]

Ideas:

1) Apply a racial intimidation bonus (or penalty) to each mutation/template/etc.

2) Don't forget to apply the Intimidation bonus due to size.

3) Don't forget to apply common sense on the part of the target. He might not be "intimidating" as per the skill, but they can see the big muscles, sharp weapons and put 2 and 2 together. They know he's dangerous. They just don't get any creepy vibe off him. He's like an alligator or a shark. Sure - dangerous as all get out. People who fear dangerous things will fear him. So?

4) Allow dangerous brute characters to switch STR for CHR for Intimidation checks that allow them to physically threaten the target. Now here you run into the fact that the bumbling, tongue-tied mutant freak can somehow become very articulate when he grabs someone and shoves them against the wall. Really - the DM should NEVER run the NPCs as so mindless and dice-roll-driven that they can't react appropriately to being assaulted, regardless of someone's CHR or Intimidate.

[goat]

Give him an almightly situational bonus?

I think low Charisma characters aren't as intimidating, not because they're not as threatening, but because they don't know how to express that they are about to dice-and-slice/politically ruin you. A guy who's an amazingly talented actor/orator/performer is more likely to know how to push the buttons that make people afraid, and how to act in order to appear like you can, and will, carry out your threats.

A low charisma character, while they may be big and scary looking, doesn't know how to add anything to their big-and-scaryness. For instance, in combat situations, they should be effective (on some people at least) from appearence alone, and probably should get a bonus somewhere. But in social situations, they're probably going to be pretty useless. They don't know how to put that edge in their voice, that swagger in their stride. They're just a big guy who can get carved up by the city guard if he threatens you.

[Gorbad the Limb Rippa]

My roleplaying group allows str to be used if the PC uses it by showing of his physical prowess,
e.g.:an orc breaks a table in half to show that his not joking.
Or
the minotaur breaks an iron sword in half to scare the puny guard.

What you could do is give the character a circumstance bonus to Intimidate depending on how strong or scary he/she is.

[The White Knight]

The reason for having Cha as the relevant ability score for Intimidate is that intimidating someone can often be just as dependent on how you convey the message. Take two average [humanoid] Joes, each with identical ranks in Intimidate, but Joe 1 has 8 Charisma whereas Joe 2 has 16. They're both, say, masters in some form of martial art. Joe 1 and Joe 2 are seperately walking home from work, when they are each mugged. Joe 1 steps up to the challenge - "you'd better back off, or I'm gonna beat you up!" he declares, after a brief portrayal of martial prowess. Joe 2's turn - "I've had a long, STRESSFUL day, I've the training to kill a man in seconds with nothing more than my BARE HANDS, and you're on my LAST NERVE. Try something, I DARE YOU!"

Who's scarier?

I do, however, agree that more monstrous creatures should have racial bonuses to intimidation. If Joe 1 Polymorphs himself into an Umber Hulk, the mugger's gonna wet himself. Bonuses like that would likely have to be adjudicated by the DM at the time of usage, though, since an Umber Hulk is probably not much more intimidating to an Old Red Dragon than either Joe.

EDIT: The orc breaking a table seems like a pretty good example for using Strength in place of Charisma, but just substituting it on a whim without some tangible means to prove your relative strength doesn't seem overly reasonable to me.

[Roderick_BR]

The problem with Intimidation, is that, in D&D, it has nothing to do with physical looks, but with <i>how</i> you do it.
A classic example: In a Spiderman story, he captures some solder from some organization. He menaces him, trying to look intimidative, showing off some strenght, but the guy is unafased.
Then Silver Sable, a "international professional mercenary" gets near the guy, shows him a very small dagger, and whispers "a bullet would be faster". The guy start telling eveything he knows about his boss.
So, that was charisma and training vs simple strenght and looking menacing.
Not saying it's right, but it's an idea on how it works.

[Gamebird]

There is a level at which the DM should not be rolling dice to see how the NPC reacts. If the orc breaks a table or the minotaur bends the iron bar, the human Warrior 1 guard is going to get the point that he's next, regardless of the PC's Intimidation result.

If a Fighter 18 hacks to pieces 50 of the orc band's finest warriors, their barbarian chief, shaman and three summoned animals in four rounds, do you really need to have the Fighter roll Intimidation (which he has 0 ranks in and a -3 CHR mod) to determine the reaction of the two level 1 orc Warriors who saw this carnage being enacted as they ran up to help? NO!! The orcs would turn around and flee like their lives depended on it, which they do. They don't need a stupid Intimidation roll to tell whether they're scared. Of course they're scared!

In my campaign, I removed all the skill functions that change an NPC's attitude because most of them don't make sense, or don't take into account situational modifiers like your mutant four-armed vampiric beastie. If I can't tell how the NPC will react, I determine it randomly. Makes more sense than having the PC invest skill ranks into something and having *that* modify random things the PC has no control over (like the NPC's past, his prejudices, his morale, his opinion that there are guards within screaming distance and he'll get a chance to scream, etc.)

[Tor the Fallen]

I agree with Gamebird.
A counterpoint in charisma's favor, however, is the diplomatic intimidation you'd see between say, Paul Atreides and The Guild. He could start flipping out showing of his mad witching ways, but the Guild diplomat is just going to shrug. Instead, he's all "Yo bossman, you don't recognize me as ruler, we shut off the spice. Forever. Water of Death, beeotch."

And the diplomats all "Shhhheeeeeat, you one crazy motha****a!"

[InfiniteMiller]

One of my DMs allowed us to switch out Cha for Str depending on circumstance. Charisma is more of a verbal-threat sort of intimidation, I guess. The barbarian I played when this first came up wasn't much for speech, and decided, as most barbarians probably do, to let his fists do the talking instead. The threat of of having his skeleton pulverized was enough to make that captured bandit give up the location of his comrades (and also soil his pants).

[Artanis]

You could also give a big circumstance bonus for being physically intimidating, such as breaking a table in half.

[Dhavaer]

They don't need a stupid Intimidation roll to tell whether they're scared. Of course they're scared!

The problem there is that Intimidation doesn't make you scared, it makes you intimidated. (Well, the combat use does, but that's a different situation) In this case, as you said, they would run the hell away. But if they couldn't run, they'd stand and fight like trapped rats. Sure they're scared, but not intimidated.

Intimidation doesn't necessarily make someone run away. Intimidation makes someone do what the intimidator wants them to. Sometimes this may be running away (see the movie Snatch, the scene in the bar where Bullet-Tooth Tony intimidates Vinny, Sol and Tyrone) sometimes it might be tying the rest of the hostages up before allowing the same thing to be done to you. And to do that, you need Charisma. Strength doesn't help. Wisdom or Intelligence might, but Charisma is the main thing.

[NullAshton]

I think the intimidation skill as presented in the SRD is more 'subtle' sort of intimidation. It's not the "Do what we say or we kill you" type of intimidation, it's a more subtle kind used by diplomats.

An example would be you're trying to get into a building, but guards are in the way. To use intimidation to get past the guards, you wouldn't threaten to kill them outright. It would be more along the lines of "You're not really paid enough to defend against us entering, so let us through without trouble, will you?" that doesn't set off any alarms. But if you confront the guards with, "Thog rip you in half if you no let Thog pass!" it would probably set off alarms of some kind, and the purpose of using intimidation would be defeated. They're intimidated, sure, but they're not intimidated with the skill they're intimidated with your power.

Something like that anyway.

[Scartore]

I think the biggest problem we are dealing with here is game mechanical... what most people are looking for with an intimidate check is not really covered by the d20 rules as well as say... a presence attack in Hero System. You almost have to leave such decisions to gm's choice or good roleplaying because the actual intmidate rules are, to put it bluntly, wussy.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Yah; I'm with circumstantially subbing STR for CHA when it comes to Intimidate. My permanancied Reduce Person (loooong story, has to do with an alternate Rod of Wonder) Pixie Sorcerer is not that Intimidating when you look at her; but she can be downright scary when it comes to her control spells.

[ThunderEagle]

Just read this comic:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html
and you will know why Intimidate uses charisma, not strength.

[Mewtarthio]

Charisma represents your presence, your ability to make people do what you want: Whether they fear you or love you, they notice and obey you. If a 6-CHA barbarian walks in the room covered in blood, people will be afraid of him, but in the same manner that they'd be afraid of a lion or even a stampeding rabid cow. If he demands money, they'll probably give it to him, but only because they want to appease him so that he doesn't kill him. If they got the idea that they could get out of the situation any other way (eg "Hey, look over there, it's big, shiny distraction!"), they'd do that instead. If the Barbarian asked for information, they'd probably give him something fake that they think he'd like to hear to make him leave. As soon as he's gone, they're calling the police or the paladins or what have you. They never really take the Barbarian seriously.

If, however, a 16 Cha buisinessman walks in and makes a successful Intimidate check, the people are actually cowed into obeying him. He has a commanding presence, and the people won't just view him as a dangerous threat that they need to escape somehow. They view him as something powerful that they have to appease. That's why the attitude shift lasts for a short time after the Intimidator leaves: The victim still thinks of him as someone who shouldn't be trifled with.

[SpiderBrigade]

Yeah, as others have pointed out, there's a difference between someone being intimidated, and Intimidated, if that makes sense. The non-combat use is not just "making them scared of you," that's easy. It's a very specific "making them just scared enough, and exerting pressure so that they do what you want." That takes skill and charisma. Edit: and, as Mewthario mentions, in the rules they actually act like they're friendly. The 6-Cha barbarian gets the answer that will keep him from hurting them, which may be a complete lie, or calculated to screw him over later ("the evil vampire's only weakness is Inflict Critical Wounds"). The 18-Cha guy will get the truth, because they're so scared that they won't take a chance on lying to him.

Similarly, the combat use of the skill is different from scaring the enemy. In the example of the orc mooks, yes, they would be scared of your ability, and run, because that's smart and they're not mindless. But the skill intimidate can't make your enemies run; it can only make them shaken, which is a very specific thing in the rules. This isn't showing the enemy that you can hurt them, they presumably know that, and are (usually, given the D&D world) pretty used to the idea of fighting things, possibly to the death. Intimidate is about making them extra scared, in such a way that it hinders their effectiveness. That requires charisma. Think of the Princess Bride, with the whole "now we fight...to the PAIN" thing. Well, that's bluff, too. But it's great intimidation as well.

[Kantolin]

An additional flaw with strength-intimidate is that, well, that doesn't matter so much in a lot of cases. Everything I'd go with as a circumstance bonus.

The half-orc bending an iron bar shouldn't in the slightest even amuse the minotaur he's trying to intimidate. Or, more logically, the other half-orc who can do similar enough. I wouldn't give a bonus here.

The epic level wizard is not likely to be impressed by it either, and he's also likely to be extremely intimidating despite having lousy of both strength and charisma. Circumstance modifier. Especially if he has a quickened wish or something just waiting for this particular strong fighter to get uppity.

If you're intimidating by 'better-than-you', I'd focus that on a circumstance modifier. Leading to a lot of 'You don't scare me, ya clumsy oaf'. I mean, when a random townsfolk is standing in a public area with a decent amount of guards nearby, the fact that the person in front of them could beat them to a pulp may or may not scare them.

Sure, you can hold someone up at the bank, take their wallet, and tell them to remain on the ground and count to 100. If you're not actually that intimidating but happened to be holding a gun, the instant they believe the coast is clear enough they'll grab their cell phone and call the police. The intimidating guy is the guy who has people sitting there "F-fourty three mi-mississippi" long after he's probably gone, but they're not sure.

[Wolf53226]

I have two words for you: Circumstance Bonus.

It's your friend.

[Ditto]

Cha is what you use when interacting with people, so if you walk into a room and break a chair over your head... awesome. You haven't told anyone what you want yet. That's Cha. As indicated above, if you don't have any finesse to it, they'll tell you something just to get you to go away.

I'm a fan of using a given attribute to get a bonus - and not just strength. I think a great example of Int being used to intimidate is in Good Will Hunting. Ben Affleck's janitor guy starts spouting off all this research from a technical journal, and the priss who's harassing Matt Damon is totally taken aback. Any show of 'strength' will do - and that's usually called 'Force of Personality', in the end. Which is Cha. But by no means should you have a bonus just by sheer dint of having a high number on a piece of paper. Size modifiers, racial bonuses, those make sense.

[Gamebird]

I have two words for you: Circumstance Bonus.

It's your friend.

Which is another way of saying the DM makes up a bonus or penalty based on the situation at hand, and then applies it to a d20 roll that the player adds their Intimidate ranks and CHR modifier to.

The end result is what? What can someone achieve by rolling Intimidate that they can't achieve by role play?

Your Intimidate check is opposed by the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear). If you beat your target’s check result, you may treat the target as friendly, but only for the purpose of actions taken while it remains intimidated. (That is, the target retains its normal attitude, but will chat, advise, offer limited help, or advocate on your behalf while intimidated.

or

Demoralize Opponent...the target becomes shaken for 1 round. A shaken character takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws.

The first one is (or should be) entirely the province of role play. The second is marginally useful.

Whether or not an NPC or monster can be intimidated into cooperating with the PC should be entirely based on role play.

Either that, or turnabout's fair play and the NPCs and monsters should be able to force the PCs to cooperate by using Intimidate on them.

[Matthew]

You could look at this another way.

Have the player roll for intimidation and then roleplay the result. He doesn't need to know the DC, and the DM can roleplay the NPC in accordance with the results, adding a circumstance bonus when the roleplay suggests. A compromise can be reached through rolling and roleplay, so long as everyone is aware that the results aren't cut and dry.

Turnabout is fair play, but the same logic can apply. If you have an NPC with a high intimidation skill, roll the die, roleplay him in accordance with the results and expect the players to roleplay as well. It's not a perfect solution, but it works well in my games.

[Titanium Dragon]

I think there's a bigger reason. Frankly, a lot of the classes which are physically intimidating have Intimidate as a class skill. If you don't spend your points on it, then you aren't going to be that great at it. However, the more articulate you are, the more intimidating you are. The scariest thing isn't an unthinking monster, is that guy who you know will stab you in the face 47 times not because he likes to, but because he wants you to talk, and you know he'll stop if you do. Or the lawful evil fighter type who isn't about smashing stuff, but simply speaking in a voice that carries that "you're going to do this or die" tone. Darth Vader is way scarier than some giant space worm for this reason.

[Dhavaer]

The end result is what? What can someone achieve by rolling Intimidate that they can't achieve by role play?

Same thing as through rolling attacks instead of roleplay. Legitimacy through mechanics. It doesn't matter how nicely you describe your attacks, a first level fighter isn't bringing down a Great Red Wyrm.

[Hallavast]

Same thing as through rolling attacks instead of roleplay. Legitimacy through mechanics. It doesn't matter how nicely you describe your attacks, a first level fighter isn't bringing down a Great Red Wyrm.

The fighter could win if the Dragon lies down and makes itself helpless and lets the fighter coup de grace it, then fails it's fortitude save to stay alive. The dragon might only let you do this if your swing is particularly overdone and fancy looking.

[Shalist]

Same thing as through rolling attacks instead of roleplay. Legitimacy through mechanics. It doesn't matter how nicely you describe your attacks, a first level fighter isn't bringing down a Great Red Wyrm.

Thank you, and I couldn't agree more. These "I have a -3 mod in something but don't wish to be inconvenienced by it" (aka 'charisma bashing') threads are a pet peeve of mine. As gamebird says, why waste stat and skill points on charisma when you can just RP a charismatic character? It's no worse than a character with 4 strength arm wrestling ogres because his player goes to the gym once in a while. Sarcasm aside, I don't entirely disagree. As things stand now, most of what charisma does seems like a direct substitution for actual roleplay, which is rather contrary to the point in the game.

---

I think it's safe to say that if someone has 4 intelligence or wisdom, they'll be ignorant, short tempered, feebleminded, etc. If someone 4 dex or str, they wouldn't be able to walk without tripping or lift more than 40 pounds. But since charisma is a purely RP'd trait, the only penalty for having a low score in it is that some blurb in your char's sheet about how he baths infrequently or some such--certainly no conceivable mechanical disadvantages.

I'm apparently in the minority in seeing self-confidence as the single greatest contributor to charisma. Someone with a -3 modifier is someone I'd expect to be shy, stuttering, and plagued by doubt about their own abilities, and virtually unable to make eye contact--not brashly running around trying to intimidate everything in sight as if you're the local mafia boss's right hand man.

---

If you want to intimidate through strength, ask yourself, how special are you? Are 4-armed mutant lizards so rare that the mere sight of one leaves people trembling? Possibly, yes, which would fall under a racial or circumstancial bonus completely unrelated to your strength score. How about half-orcs with more brawn than brains? Hardly. If you wish to get the most out of your brawn, let the charismatic type do the talking, ala "..pay back the money or Bruno here will smash your legs..."

Other than that, if a scrawny 16 charisma monk looks you in the eye and says in a confident and chillingly cold voice, "Move, now," as he approaches you without slowing, it will be a lot scarier, and stay fresh in your memory a lot longer, than even a quite beefy monk stuttering out a "mo-mo-move out of m-m-my way pl-please, I do-don't want to hu-hurt you." while he stands there looking anywhere but at you and holding his quarterstaff in a white-knuckled grip.

---

My last bit...The average anything has 10 charisma, so the average monk will not be particularly shy, nor the average half-orc particularly self-efacing, etc. The fact that so many players use charisma as a dump stat makes their characters rather unusual in this regard though, and often very much unlike their literary counterparts. Significant negative modifiers should result in significant disadvantages. In charisma's case, it's largely up to the player to enforce them though.

[ExHunterEmerald]

Apply an inverse-charisma bonus as well as a charisma bonus. If it's got a Cha of 3 and it's not because it's mute, give it the negative as a positive to Intimidate.
Alternatively, or also, add its highest physical score.
Strength: Duh.
Dex: Ever wonder what a star wars thug must feel when he sees a guy in robes do a quadruple-backflip and deflect his shots? That's gotta be a trip.
Con: It'd be pretty scary to smack someone hard across the back with a club and have them not even flinch. That sort of tolerance or durability is unnerving.

[AtomicKitKat]

It is a common misconception to think that someone with low Charisma would automatically stutter. And just because you speak well doesn't necessarily mean that the local thug/gangster/punk will step aside to let you through. Mr Muscles needs merely to move in your general direction, and you will be falling all over yourself to get out of his way. For a more modern analogy:

Well-dressed Fop tries to intimidate the Bouncer into letting him in: "Do you know who I am?!" Bouncer merely glares, then resumes stony stare into space.

Fellow bigger than the Bouncer pushes his way to the front. Bouncer will either call for backup(in which case, he's already showing he's not confident he can safely take the guy himself), or he will try to call his Manager to check. Either way, he's not likely to even physically stop the guy. He'll step aside first.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Charisma should be completely dropped from Intimidate in a combat situation. "I don't care how good you look, how well you speak, who the hell your scion is, you're not going to be able to shake me in a fight unless you can prove you're a threat to me."

[Cyborg Pirate]

It is a common misconception to think that someone with low Charisma would automatically stutter. And just because you speak well doesn't necessarily mean that the local thug/gangster/punk will step aside to let you through. Mr Muscles needs merely to move in your general direction, and you will be falling all over yourself to get out of his way. For a more modern analogy:

Well-dressed Fop tries to intimidate the Bouncer into letting him in: "Do you know who I am?!" Bouncer merely glares, then resumes stony stare into space.

Fellow bigger than the Bouncer pushes his way to the front. Bouncer will either call for backup(in which case, he's already showing he's not confident he can safely take the guy himself), or he will try to call his Manager to check. Either way, he's not likely to even physically stop the guy. He'll step aside first.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Charisma should be completely dropped from Intimidate in a combat situation. "I don't care how good you look, how well you speak, who the hell your scion is, you're not going to be able to shake me in a fight unless you can prove you're a threat to me."

WOW

You can not be more wrong. How did you ever arrive at these conclusions? Speaking from experience, a big burly guy acting tough without the personality to back it up will get nowhere with a proper bouncer or bouncer team. A well-dressed man good looking man who can talk the talk can get into any place. Ofcourse, I wouldn't know why anyone would try and intimidate a bouncer in the first place. If there's a group of people on this planet who are Specifically trained to resist intimidation, it's the bouncers in the world.

Getting a good talk on with them and getting to know them a little will get you into any club much much faster. With all the benefits of never needing to wait in line.



Is it me, or do a lot of people here not understand the nature of intimidation?