How to handle a player with major indecision issues?

[Talakeal]

Ok, so one of the players in my game has serious anxiety issues about making decisions. Something as simple as whether to go left or right or how much to power attack for will leave her stumped for minutes on end. If someone rushes her or (god forbid) she makes the wrong decision in retrospect, she breaks down, either sullenly withdrawing from the game or throwing a fit and screaming, crying, or throwing dice.

For years I have been more or less unaware of what was setting her off, but during our last session she was scouting and when I asked whether she was going to continue on ahead or report back to the party. She immediately asked the rest of the group what to do, and the rest of the party said they weren't their and she would have to decide on her own. She then broke down crying and said she hates playing games where she has to make decisions and wishes she could stick to video games where other people do all the decision making for her.

Thinking back to all of the times she has broken down during the game (and those of you who follow my threads know breakdowns happen frequently at my table) they all do seem to go back to her making a wrong decision or simply being paralyzed and unable to make a decision period.

Aside from not gaming with her (which isn't really feasible do to player dynamics), does how can I minimize the need for her to make decisions at the table?

[bjoern]

This is defiantely an OOC issue. I'm guessing that this is a problem for her in day to day life also. If that is the case , have her see a doctor. I'm sure there is some medication which can alleviate the anxiety and help her enjoy things without the panic .

[LibraryOgre]

Ugh, this is a rough one. I'm going to fall back on "Problem player rule #1: Talk to the player, find out what's going on."

She probably knows about this. She likely knows that it's a problem, and that it IS a problem is probably causing her even more anxiety. When you can talk to her out of game, ask her about it and ask her if there's anything you can do to help her... she may well have coping strategies that she's used to, but hasn't been able to pull off in game.

One thing it sounds like you're doing is not to remove choices from her, but instead present her with a more limited slate of options... give her A, B, or C, not A-Z and a couple of different numbers as a range of choices. The smaller range of choices can make things easier, and build confidence over time.

[Slipperychicken]

1. Seconding talking to her about it. Also, take her concerns seriously.

2. I don't see anything seriously wrong with asking other players for advice if not doing so brings her to tears. Maybe you guys could say her PC is consulting her "inner wisdom" when she asks other players?

3. You could also ask her about giving her a benevolent "guardian angel" (or "spirit compass" or "wise ancestor spirit" or "divine inspiration") or some metaphysical/spiritual thing like that to help guide her choices. She can ask it for advice at any time (and it will answer to the best of its ability), and when she (or her PC) feels overwhelmed by the choices before her, she can let this entity take control of her actions. It usually takes her the right way, using her own stats without adjustment. She can resume her own control at any time, with no check or action required. It's also (Ex), so it works in an AMF. OOC this can be you or another player controlling her character for a time, roleplaying as a benevolent spirit in her body, whose top priority is making the right decisions for her. You can even give the spirit some flavor and backstory to make it seem less contrived.

[Averis Vol]

Talk with her out of character and tell her not to leave the party anymore. If she's going to act this way, she shouldn't be allowed to do things alone. I'm sorry, but this is ludicrous to bring into a light hearted gaming environment.

Possibly a less "real" answer, sit her down and ask what her dig is? there is no rational reason why she should be acting this way with people she's apparently friends with. Ask her to either opt out of the game, because she's being a drama queen and actively doing nothing about it (theres no way she doesn't know she's doing it) or as Bjoern said, urge her to go see a doctor, if she can't make little decisions while playing a game with zero consequence of failure she obviously can't even handle putting in her lunch order (would you like cheese on that?) let alone make any real life choices.

The only in game options you have are basically delaying a ticking time bomb. You can stop making her make decisions, but that will only work for so long. The best you can hope for is that she takes your talk seriously and finds help.

[nedz]

Playing games is about making decisions, so there is no real hope here on that score.

Your player has some kind of psychological problem which we are not qualified to resolve.

Talking to the player might help, but it sounds like she needs help from outside your gaming circle.

Sorry for being so negative, but this is outside the scope of what we can do.

[Engine]

I'm not sure how comfortable I would be having such a person at the table.
Apart from advising her to seek professional help, I would ask her to leave the game.

[AMFV]

Ok, so one of the players in my game has serious anxiety issues about making decisions. Something as simple as whether to go left or right or how much to power attack for will leave her stumped for minutes on end. If someone rushes her or (god forbid) she makes the wrong decision in retrospect, she breaks down, either sullenly withdrawing from the game or throwing a fit and screaming, crying, or throwing dice.

My emphasis. Depending on how accurate a description this is, this is very serious behavior. Well past what you have any social obligation to tolerate. Since I don't know the person in question, I can't say for certain how much of it is social manipulation, or how much of it is severe mental issues. But violent lashing out like that, that's not really typical of only anxiety, that's a very severe issue. Normally I wouldn't recommend that somebody who is not a close friend advise somebody to seek counseling, but in this case... that'd be advisable I think.

If you really do feel the need to game with her, try breaking things down into a much smaller scale. How much to power attack for, for example, shouldn't even be a question, you can completely determine the optimal amount using a table. Try to make most decisions like that, to where there is such a clear best decision that there is no issue.

For years I have been more or less unaware of what was setting her off, but during our last session she was scouting and when I asked whether she was going to continue on ahead or report back to the party. She immediately asked the rest of the group what to do, and the rest of the party said they weren't their and she would have to decide on her own. She then broke down crying and said she hates playing games where she has to make decisions and wishes she could stick to video games where other people do all the decision making for her.

She certainly could stick to video games, and it sounds like she might just not really enjoy roleplaying games. I mean you mention that you can't stop playing with her because of group dynamics. Which suggests to me that there is a relationship between her and somebody else of one type or another, is it possible that she doesn't want to play and is being "encouraged" in the same way that you are being encouraged to retain her?

In any case if you are determined to keep her, you could definitely do something like allowing her to roll her mental stats. Provided that this is some d20 variant (I make that assumption based on the Power Attack Comment earlier). You could allow her to roll Wisdom to gain some kind of "gut feeling" or intelligence to have some kind of "insight", then give her hints as to what you think the correct course of action.

Thinking back to all of the times she has broken down during the game (and those of you who follow my threads know breakdowns happen frequently at my table) they all do seem to go back to her making a wrong decision or simply being paralyzed and unable to make a decision period.

Well there's not really a way to remove all decisions. Is it possible to have her be an observer, ergo she watches the games, she may get to roll dice, but not actually participate as a player? I mean it sounds like she isn't having any fun.

Aside from not gaming with her (which isn't really feasible do to player dynamics), does how can I minimize the need for her to make decisions at the table?

I don't know, I think that an adult throwing what is essentially a literal temper tantrum wouldn't be something I would be willing to stand for. I'm not a therapist, and expecting me to act as such in a social setting is really, really unconscionably rude. Part of what having a mental issue involves is the fact that you don't get absolved for all of the actions you take while in a bad mood, now people might accept it as a mitigating factor. Like if she occasionally got snippy, or agitated. But screaming, throwing things, depending on what throwing a fit involves... that's beyond the pale, absolutely unacceptable behavior for an adult who is not hospitalized.

[Ettina]

My emphasis. Depending on how accurate a description this is, this is very serious behavior. Well past what you have any social obligation to tolerate. Since I don't know the person in question, I can't say for certain how much of it is social manipulation, or how much of it is severe mental issues. But violent lashing out like that, that's not really typical of only anxiety, that's a very severe issue. Normally I wouldn't recommend that somebody who is not a close friend advise somebody to seek counseling, but in this case... that'd be advisable I think.

I think you're underestimating the impact anxiety can have. I've certainly seen people whose only mental health issue is an anxiety disorder end up crying, screaming and throwing things as a result. An anxiety disorder isn't just feeling nervous - most anxiety disorders involve feeling all-out terror when exposed to a certain trigger.

My advice for the OP is to talk with her privately about the issue. Don't phrase it as you not liking this behavior, but as you being concerned about her well-being. Ask her if she has trouble making decisions in areas other than games (my guess is she probably does), and if she's considered getting psychological help for this problem. Also, you may want to check into whether she actually wants to play D&D or is feeling pressured into playing it.

If she doesn't really want to play D&D, it's better that you play a person short than have someone play who isn't enjoying themselves. If her character is essential to the party, you could either have yourself or another player take over the character (or a newly-introduced character with the same qualities, if she's not OK with someone else playing her character), or you could nerf the enemies or buff the other players so they can manage without her.

If she does want to play, but is having trouble coping, you can propose having a team meeting to discuss solutions so she can play without triggering her anxiety. Maybe, as the other poster suggested, you could use mental stat rolls to decide on what sort of hints to give her to help her decide. Or maybe have it that she can consult the other players OOC even if her character is alone, or have her character avoid being alone. Or, if everyone agrees, you could have it that she can request a redo if a decision turned out badly for her - in which case, you could either retroactively claim she did the other decision and alter stuff accordingly, or just put everyone back before she made that decision and replay it from then. (Don't give her special rules, though. If you house-rule any changes to the rules for her, they can be invoked by any player in this game. That way it's less likely to cause resentment.)

While you're discussing this, remember to be sympathetic. She probably hates this problem a lot more than anyone else does - after all, she's the one getting upset. If she could chose not to feel this way, she'd probably do it in a heartbeat.

[Kalmageddon]

Playing games is about making decisions, so there is no real hope here on that score.

Your player has some kind of psychological problem which we are not qualified to resolve.

Talking to the player might help, but it sounds like she needs help from outside your gaming circle.

Sorry for being so negative, but this is outside the scope of what we can do.

Yes, this.
If she doesn't want to or can't make decisions she can't have a Player Character. She would at best interpreting an NPC.
If you really think that having this person at the gaming table is something you want, why don't you suggest exactly this? That she simply helps you, the GM, with the NPCs. She could provide a bit of flavour here and there all without making any decisions since all she has to do is dialogues, which presumeably she's ok with, otherwise I can't even see how she got past character creation.

Edit: also, out of curiosity, what kind of video games is she thinking of exactly? Because as far as I know, any videogame has choices. Actually, anything a person can actively do has choices. I mean, if you can interact with the media, you are making a choice, otherwise you are just watching a movie or doing some other passive activity.

[Studoku]

Aside from not gaming with her (which isn't really feasible do to player dynamics), does how can I minimize the need for her to make decisions at the table?

Why isn't this feasible? Are you that short on players?

[Jay R]

The goal is to make the game fun for all players.
Making decisions isn't fun for her.
So don't make her make decisions.

It's that straightforward.

Let another player advise her, or have the DM make the clear decisions.

Assume P2 is the afflicted player.

DM: P1, it's your initiative. What do you do?
P1: I move over to this square and cause a flank attack on the first ogre. (Rolls dice) I do 10 points of damage.
DM. OK. P2, it's your move. You now have a flank attack on that ogre. So you power attack.
etc.

This moves the game along while everyone has fun. Everyone doesn't have to play the same way. Everyone has to have fun.

[Segev]

This is definitely something to talk to her about.

I would also speak privately to whoever is the source of the "social dynamic" that makes playing with this girl mandatory. Not to talk them into ditching her, but to see if they know what's going on.

Finally, from a game-problem-solving perspective, you could have her play a cleric or diviner. Recommend she take Augury as a spell, and use it whenever she feels indecisive. Narrow her options to "A or B," and let her use Augury.

The other thing to do is, for a little while, present her with choices where you know that all outcomes are positive. Present the outcomes as positive as they come up. The goal here is to give her some confidence that her choices are likely to result in good things.

When you do have negatives occur, have it happen because she distrusted her instincts and either refused to act or indecisively changed her mind/went with what somebody else told her. Make it as clear as possible that her first instinct would have had things go swimmingly.

The hardest part will be when you have to pull this back, and let her make mistakes again. But hopefully, you can do this subtly enough that she'll develop some confidence, and the first few setbacks will be minor enough that she can recover from them with another choice that's very clear (but still requires some decision from her).

But again, this is something to discuss with her, and with whatever friends of hers make it mandatory to play with her. Together or separately. Only after being sure that there isn't something deeper that needs handling should you try this clandestine campaign of Pavolovian confidence-boosting.

[cobaltstarfire]

The other thing to do is, for a little while, present her with choices where you know that all outcomes are positive. Present the outcomes as positive as they come up. The goal here is to give her some confidence that her choices are likely to result in good things.

This right here is a good way to start.

Everyone is different, but I can say in my personal experience (regarding anxiety) you have to take it slow and work your way up through even the tiniest things. You can't just toss someone into the pool so to speak when they have anxiety because it's likely to just make their anxiety even worse.

Ask her how she feels about decision making before you make her do it too. Sometimes you just really have to hold someones hand when they're going through that kind of thing.


I'd also talk to her about it in general of course.... If you suggest she see a councilor and she decides to, just know, if she has to be referred to a psychiatrist for medication she may become more unstable until they find something that works good, and that could take anything from weeks to months.

[Aedilred]

I'm not amazing at making decisions in real life, so when I'm being particularly useless I'll toss a coin. I try to narrow my options down to two; if one of them is the one I'd rather do but think might be suboptimal, that's tails, and the one I think might be better but I'd rather not do is heads. I don't rule out overruling the coin if I decide after tossing it that it was the wrong decision, but at least it forces me to make one.

Perhaps something like this would help your player. Obviously it's not for everyone in real life, but in a game where making the "wrong" decision isn't the end of the world it might help to speed things up. Suggest that if she gets paralysed by indecision, you and the others help her come up with two options and then flip a coin (or more than two, and roll a die). It might help to speed up the decision-making process without making her feel like it's her fault if she gets it wrong (it's the coin's fault!), but it's still also her agency rather than just having other people tell her what to do. You could even make it an IC feature of her character - like Two-Face from Batman.

[Jay R]

The hardest part will be when you have to pull this back, and let her make mistakes again. But hopefully, you can do this subtly enough that she'll develop some confidence, and the first few setbacks will be minor enough that she can recover from them with another choice that's very clear (but still requires some decision from her).

This isn't therapy, and a DM is not a trained therapist. Don't even think about moving subtly to develop her confidence. Run the game so that she can have fun - and keep running it that way.

[sktarq]

have her build a spare character or two. Regularly talk them up OOC. Make it clear that even if she blows it totally and dies she can now play with that other character she has been looking forward to. Lower the responsibilities.

[Tengu_temp]

The obvious solution here is to never leave this player in a situation where she has to make important choices. Also, when she's asking what to do, she's asking OOC, not IC, so the other players can advice her even if their characters are not there - tell them that. Worst case scenario, offer her advice yourself if she can't decide.

Overall, though, I wonder why does this player stay, if it's evident that she doesn't have fun with the game and her breakdowns cause trouble for everyone else. Maybe tabletop games are simply not for her? You don't have to stop being friends just because you don't play together, you know.

[Talakeal]

I don't like kicking players and the group is getting painfully small to begin with, but in this case if she was to leave the group we would lose half the other players and the place where we play, so it isn't really an option.

It doesn't really seem to be about consequences. Some of her biggest outbursts have been over trivially small things like losing a few gold or missing a single attack. When she actually takes serious damage she cries and pouts even if she still wins the fight. The one time she died she burst into tears and refused to participate in the rest of the session even though she was revived the very next round. I doubt a backup character or the like is going to change anything.

[Engine]

I don't like kicking players and the group is getting painfully small to begin with, but in this case if she was to leave the group we would lose half the other players and the place where we play, so it isn't really an option.

It doesn't really seem to be about consequences. Some of her biggest outbursts have been over trivially small things like losing a few gold or missing a single attack. When she actually takes serious damage she cries and pouts even if she still wins the fight. The one time she died she burst into tears and refused to participate in the rest of the session even though she was revived the very next round. I doubt a backup character or the like is going to change anything.

You should ask her to leave not because she's a disruptive player; it seems to me that playing is not good for her.
Simply put, it's not normal for a grown-up to cry because her imaginary puppet lost some hit points. Maybe talk to the people that would leave if she leaves, show your concerns, try to understand if that's a chance to play with them even if her friend leaves.

I know that you came here asking how you should handle this player, but IMHO, you shouldn't. You shouldn't handle her, if I was you I would ask her to leave because I'm not her caretaker, I'm not a professional and I don't know how to deal properly with her issues; I wouldn't accept the responsibility that I could worsen her condition. And if I couldn't convince the others to play even without her...I would choose not to play with her. I know it could seem harsh, but as I said above, I don't think gaming is good for her and I wouldn't accept any responsibility with her.

[cobaltstarfire]

I don't like kicking players and the group is getting painfully small to begin with, but in this case if she was to leave the group we would lose half the other players and the place where we play, so it isn't really an option.

It doesn't really seem to be about consequences. Some of her biggest outbursts have been over trivially small things like losing a few gold or missing a single attack. When she actually takes serious damage she cries and pouts even if she still wins the fight. The one time she died she burst into tears and refused to participate in the rest of the session even though she was revived the very next round. I doubt a backup character or the like is going to change anything.

So answer us this, does she actually want to be involved at all?

You've told us quite a few times that you don't want to get rid of her for what is basically the personal interest of yourself and the other players. Maybe you should ask her about her interests, like if she actually wants to be playing the game. You still haven't actually answered that.

[Beneath]

So answer us this, does she actually want to be involved at all?

You've told us quite a few times that you don't want to get rid of her for what is basically the personal interest of yourself and the other players. Maybe you should ask her about her interests, like if she actually wants to be playing the game. You still haven't actually answered that.

Yes, this.

Everyone's advice about how to make the game fun for her by limiting the decisions she has to make won't work if she doesn't want to be there and is only not quitting because she doesn't want to decide to.

If she wants to stay, that's when you start coming up with ideas to try to cut down on problems for her. Work with her on this, as much as you can; don't just try things someone on the internet suggested without talking with her first.

[Raine_Sage]

You know I have to wonder where you keep finding these people. I think I've seen you post about more problem players than I've know problem people in general. I don't suppose you live near some kind of chemical plant?

In all seriousness I agree with the others.

- Ask her if she really wants to keep playing this game or if it's too stressful for her.

- If she does want to keep playing then encourage her to seek therapy because seriously that stuff doesn't really get better without professional intervention.

- If she won't agree to that consult the players who would leave if she wasn't there. Stress to them that you're worried she's not enjoying the game and that you're not "kicking her" but you'd feel better if she wasn't constantly melting down. Assuming they know her better than you do maybe they could attempt to convince her one way or another.

The whole situation is weird to me though. I just can't imagine a situation where, assuming you are all at least acquainted with one another, her dropping would cause other people to drop. Because that implies the only reason they're playing is because /she's/ playing which further implies that without her the game would not be enjoyable. But given the description of her behavior I can't think of any reason the table would be divided on this, the decision to kick her would have been unanimous in just about every group I've played with.

Unless they'd be dropping because she'd throw another fit if they continued to play without her.


Edit: Oh I forgot to ask, does she do this outside the game? Like if you ask her what she wants for lunch does she break down crying? Or does she throw the remote at you if you ask whether she'd like to watch lord of the rings or the hobbit first? Because if this is limited to the gaming table she might just be an incredibly sore loser and all around toxic person.

[Shinken]

Why isn't this feasible? Are you that short on players?

I'm guessing it's because friends help each other instead of dumping them.

[AMFV]

I'm guessing it's because friends help each other instead of dumping them.

Well the issue is that this is beyond "helping", and is possibly even enabling. Allowing somebody to throw a temper tantrum in public doesn't help them, it creates an environment where they feel increasingly powerless, and enables this sort of embarrassing and problematic situation to continue. If my friend shows up to my house blackout drunk and makes passes at my wife and then passes out on the floor, then saying: "Nope, that's not gonna fly" isn't 'dumping' my friend, that's setting reasonable adult boundaries. Which is what needs to happen here. Throwing things, screaming, breaking down sobbing, that's not acceptable behavior for a social game setting, and setting a boundary there isn't just going to help Tala, it's going to help his player as well.

So setting boundaries != cutting your friend out of your life. And boundaries do need to be set here. If the friend can't game, then they can involve her in other aspects of their life. They could have a video-game night where she can observe others playing and get the social aspect without having to make any decisions. She could even be an observer to the D&D game, getting the social aspect and the fun of the story without having any personal risk involved.

[Anxe]

One of my players has this problem to a much lesser extent. He just flips a coin when he comes upon a decision he is unsure of. I'd throw that in there with the other discussions. Be nice about it though. This person still sounds like your friend even if they get upset easily.

[Nagash]

I dont want to be a jerk but this player has a major personality issue.

I've known people with anxiety issues, this doesnt sound like that. It sounds like a blend of incredibly sore loser and drama queen. There might be some anxiety issues there too but unless this happens this badly in other areas of her life as well thats not the root here.

Tell her to knock it the hell off and go get some therapy and medication, its a game. There are no real consequences to any decision so stop acting like its the end of the world.

Assuming she does make an effort on that front and there is a real component of anxiety too then get her a few beers before and during the game. Most people I've known with anxiety issues loosen right up after a few drinks and have a lot more fun.

** caveat, if she does get on medication.... stop buying beer. That can be a bad combo.

[LokiRagnarok]

Tell her to knock it the hell off and go get some therapy and medication, its a game. There are no real consequences to any decision so stop acting like its the end of the world.

Yeah... you are making a mistake if you assume logic is guaranteed to work.
Chances are she already knows that. Still doesn't help her with her resisting her problem. The whole point about anxities, phobias and the like is that cause you to throw logic out of the window - otherwise they would be easily cured.

To put it in D&D terms, she may have high Wisdom, but low Will. So when what looks like an Eldritch monster appears in front of her, she may rationally know it cannot hurt her, but still fail her Will save against fear.

[DontEatRawHagis]

I'd try talking. To her like other people suggest. But also try to set up some scenarios where there is no wrong answer.

[Kitten Champion]

Telling someone to seek professional help is rarely a pragmatic solution in my experience with these sorts of situations, regardless if the intent is compassionate.

I would ask her what part of the role playing game experience she's comfortable with and enjoys, then as Jay R suggests, enable her do that. Anyways, is there no one in the group who is more intimate with her personally that you can talk to first?