What's more effective?

[Krellen]

Let's talk mechanics. Take two possible builds, each with a similar flavour (such as battlefield controller, melee damager, archer, divine warrior, etc.) and ask for opinions on which is more effective. Differences would include things like templates, races, base classes, and feat selections; ECL should be the same for both. Answers should have numerical backup.

To start off, I'll ask what's more effective:

Level 20 Fighter

or

Level 17 Half-Dragon Fighter?

[Bears With Lasers]

Depends. Core or noncore?
Core, Level 16 Fighter/1 Barbarian Half-Dragon. Never take an odd level of fighter except to take the one after that.

[Fax Celestis]

Half dragon has fewer hit points and loses some feats, but gets a whole host of other things (natural attacks, a breath weapon, flight) that the standard fighter couldn't get. I'd say half-dragon on this one.

[Bears With Lasers]

Half dragon has fewer hit points and loses some feats, but gets a whole host of other things (natural attacks, a breath weapon, flight) that the standard fighter couldn't get. I'd say half-dragon on this one.

The half-dragon's boosted CON actually approximately makes up for those hit points at ECL 20.

Now, Half Dragon Fighter 1 vs. Fighter 4... heh. heh.

[Truwar]

From a pure mechanics standpoint the lv 17 half dragon is better.

You sacrifice 3 points of base attack bonus, 2 feats,+2 to your fort save, +1 to your will and ref saves, 16.5 points of clas hp, and 3 levels of con bonus.

In exchange you get a +8 str (giving you a +4 to hit and damage(+6damage with a two handed weapon)), a breath weapon (although by lv 17 it has relatively little evalue, nice for the earlier levels, however), +2 con (giving 17 extra hps and covering most of the loss of level hps),+2 intelligence and charisma (allowing you to allocate more to your physical stats with a point buy system), Darkvision & Lowlight Vision, Immunity to sleep, paralysis and an element of your choice, and almost as important as the strength +4 natural armor.

[Clementx]

It really is an issue of working your way up. In the end, you are very good, but your lesser HP is a bigger deal, as is the 3 BAB. At lvl20, you get your four attacks. When you have to wait the entirely of lvl6, 7, and 8 to get your second while the human is taking advantage of a solid full attack, it is less appealing. Nevermind how it delays your feat progression. Only a LA+0 fighter is spring-attacking at lvl4 and whirlwind-attacking at lvl6. With PHBII and the high BAB feats, it becomes more costly. But like was implied above, when it comes to pure core, humanoid fighters lag behind other PHB classes and MM races.

[marjan]

Now, Half Dragon Fighter 1 vs. Fighter 4... heh. heh.

That's just for HP. Half-Dragons Breath Weapon is realy good on those lvls. And if you take Entangling Exhaustion it's even better. And then you have +4 Natural AC so you don't get hit that often, although one hit can probably put you down.

[marjan]

And the +4 to trip attempts is very very nice.

[Krellen]

Alright, BWL introduced the next one:
Fighter 4 vs. Half-Dragon Fighter 1.

We'll assume that, aside from racial modifiers, the two have equal stats.
The Fighter 4 has +3 more BAB (for a net -1 to hit, melee; +3 ranged), 3d10-1 (average 15) more HP (-1 to adjust for the Half-Dragon's higher Con), 4 less AC, and deals 4 less damage with his greatsword (Weapon Specialisation makes up, somewhat, for the Half-Dragon's higher strength.) He also gets one less attack in melee; the Half-Dragon, after all, can bite.

He also enjoys three more feats - Fighter level 2, Character level 3, Fighter level 4, although one has been spent on Weapon Specalisation already. Both Fighters picked Weapon Focus, Power Attack and Cleave at 1st level - they're humans - so the pure fighter doesn't really have a lot of options to trump the Half-Dragon, except by selecting a few ranged feats to maximise his BAB advantage. Of course, non-Core, he can pick up an Armour Specialisation to offset some of the AC difference, but only by 1.

So, over all, the pure fighter has about two-and-a-half times the Half-Dragon's hit points (15 extra), in exchange for -1 melee hit, +3 ranged hit, -4 damage (ranged or melee), -3 AC, and a relative +1 bonus on saves, and a lack of any real special qualities (while the Half-Dragon enjoys immunities to most of the worst fighter-crippling effects - sleep and paralysis - as well as possessing Darkvision and an elemental immunity.)

I think I still have to give this to the Half-Dragon.

[Seatbelt]

And that -1 to hit in melee can be huge. How many times, in a real game, do you miss by just one?

[AtomicKitKat]

It really is an issue of working your way up. In the end, you are very good, but your lesser HP is a bigger deal, as is the 3 BAB. At lvl20, you get your four attacks. When you have to wait the entirely of lvl6, 7, and 8 to get your second while the human is taking advantage of a solid full attack, it is less appealing.

Half-Dragon is full-attacking from the get-go. Claw-claw-bite, Weapon-claw-bite, or 2HWeapon-bite. Equivalent to having an offhand Shortsword and another offhand Dagger. Noticed that nobody mentioned how much more the Half-Dragon's natural flight gives him an advantage as well. If he plays Ranged, pure Human Fighter loses.

For the low-level comparison, I'll give it to the Half-Dragon, if he simply flies, breathes, then snipes.

Specialist Wizards: Enchantment vs Conjuration vs Necromancy. Any 2 schools can be banned(apart from Divination, obviously). All focused on debuffing/SorS spells.

Edit: Failed to edit cos of board lag earlier. Forgot that only Large or larger Half-Dragons get wings. :(

[JaronK]

Fighter 20 is stronger, since they get access to that Fighter 18 only feat.

Generally, Half Dragon is a weak template... the reason it seems better here is of course because you're only losing fighter levels. Fighter 13/Half Dragon 3 is better than Fighter 16.

JaronK

[NullAshton]

What about for the next one...

Sorcerer 2/Fighter 8/Dragon Disciple 10

vs.

Fighter 20

[Variable Arcana]

Specialist Wizards: Enchantment vs Conjuration vs Necromancy. Any 2 schools can be banned(apart from Divination, obviously). All focused on debuffing/SorS spells.

Basically this comes down to comparing the spells in their specialized schools. Using core only, I'd give it to Conjurers at very low levels (Grease, Glitterdust...) and Enchanters at very high levels (Irresistable Dance, Mass Hold Monster...).

((What Fighter-18-only feat??))

Perhaps too easy a question:

Is there any level-adjustment template that is ever worth taking for a wizard?

[MeklorIlavator]

Alright, BWL introduced the next one:
Fighter 4 vs. Half-Dragon Fighter 1.

We'll assume that, aside from racial modifiers, the two have equal stats.
The Fighter 4 has +3 more BAB (for a net -1 to hit, melee; +3 ranged), 3d10-1 (average 15) more HP (-1 to adjust for the Half-Dragon's higher Con), 4 less AC, and deals 4 less damage with his greatsword (Weapon Specialisation makes up, somewhat, for the Half-Dragon's higher strength.) He also gets one less attack in melee; the Half-Dragon, after all, can bite.

He also enjoys three more feats - Fighter level 2, Character level 3, Fighter level 4, although one has been spent on Weapon Specalisation already. Both Fighters picked Weapon Focus, Power Attack and Cleave at 1st level - they're humans - so the pure fighter doesn't really have a lot of options to trump the Half-Dragon, except by selecting a few ranged feats to maximise his BAB advantage. Of course, non-Core, he can pick up an Armour Specialisation to offset some of the AC difference, but only by 1.

So, over all, the pure fighter has about two-and-a-half times the Half-Dragon's hit points (15 extra), in exchange for -1 melee hit, +3 ranged hit, -4 damage (ranged or melee), -3 AC, and a relative +1 bonus on saves, and a lack of any real special qualities (while the Half-Dragon enjoys immunities to most of the worst fighter-crippling effects - sleep and paralysis - as well as possessing Darkvision and an elemental immunity.)

I think I still have to give this to the Half-Dragon.

Well, that depends on whether you want a tank or nor. We once had a Half dragon fighter 1, and he couldn't take one hit. My Wu Gen would have been better(I had more hit points.)

[Krellen]

Noticed that nobody mentioned how much more the Half-Dragon's natural flight gives him an advantage as well.

That's because he doesn't have wings. Only Large (or larger) Half-Dragons have wings and flight. Human Half-Dragons are Medium.

((What Fighter-18-only feat??))

Weapon Supremecy, from PHBII. It's not nearly as good as it should be; it offers a +4 bonus to being disarmed, allows you to use your weapon in a grapple, make one attack in a full attack a +5, take 10 on a single attack each round, and get a +1 to AC.

Good, yes, but as capstone abilities go, it's no Time Stop. It's not even Perfect Body.

[Clementx]

Half-Dragon is full-attacking from the get-go. Claw-claw-bite, Weapon-claw-bite, or 2HWeapon-bite. Equivalent to having an offhand Shortsword and another offhand Dagger. Noticed that nobody mentioned how much more the Half-Dragon's natural flight gives him an advantage as well. If he plays Ranged, pure Human Fighter loses.

1) Natural Attacks are at -5 secondary attacks when used with manufactured weapons, -3 attack worse than TWFing. You aren't hitting a damn thing with that bite at lvl1.

2) Only Large or bigger Half-Dragons have wings, which means your race is going to knock out more fighter levels and bring even more LA, and that is not the assumption we were working under, so there is good reason that no one mentioned wings. Now, the Dragon Disciple topic that was just brought up...

3) Breath Weapon is 1/day. It can be a good opening, but that is about it.

[AtomicKitKat]

That's because he doesn't have wings. Only Large (or larger) Half-Dragons have wings and flight. Human Half-Dragons are Medium.

Nod. Had too much lag to edit earlier. Edited earlier post to reflect it. :(

Sorceror 2/Fighter 8/Dragon Disciple 10? I'd probably give it to the DD. Being able to fly(this time for real. ) when your opponent can't is always an advantage. Not forgetting that you get True Strike, among other things. Mechanically speaking, Fighter 6/Dragon Devotee 3/Dragon Disciple 10(can't think of a last level, and Fighter 7=worthless, so throw on a +1ECL race of your choice I guess, or another level of Sorceror to bump up ECastL) probably edges it out.

Fighter 20 vs Barbarian 20.

Edits follow:

Breath weapon is 27 damage on average. Fighter 20 has 115 HP on average before Constitution. 155 assuming 14 Constitution. I'd say taking off slightly more than 1/6 of your opponent's health before he even closes is a good opening.

Regarding the weapons, a Half-Dragon doesn't have to use manufactured weapons. Nothing in the rules prevents him from throwing as many daggers as his BAB/Quickdraw/equipment allows, then closing the remaining 5 feet to hit with his natural weapons(sans penalty on the Primaries, I think.). I'd say the Half-Dragon has a slight edge there. Fighter can focus on/specialise in a weapon to gain hit/damage, but so can the Half-Dragon(slightly later), and the Half-Dragon's speciality weapons can never be sundered(barring house rules), nor disarmed(unless you do so literally, of course). If it comes down to a grapple, it's almost assuredly all Half-Dragon.