Players who hate the word NO!

[ADZAELL]

So, i decided to bite the bullet and DM again. It has been a two year hiatus, but i REALLY love the Eberron setting and wanted to run it.

So i invited some people into the group. I told them prior to character creation i would allow the standard races, plus the four new Eberron races, as well as some races suggested in the expansions Secrets of Xen'drick and Secrets of Sarlona. All in all, 16 races.

One of my players stated he would play a Star elf from Forgotten realms. I said no. The player got really annoyed and asked why. I told him it didn't fit into Eberron, where the elves were one race but many cultures (FINALLY, the word race isn't a synonym for culture). He told me i was being inflexible. I said yes, i was, but that was my ruling.

So we are halfway into the session and i realize his Dragonmarked Elven Bard has 20 charisma. I ask how. his response was literally "Um, duh, Star Elf, NOOB!". I reminded him i told him he couldn't play a star elf. He told me that it was in a wizards book so he was entitled to use it. I told him he had to change it. He said he would never play a bard without 20 charisma and wanted to change classes. i was lenient and said that was fine, he could change it at the end of the session. he said he would change it to a warforged fighter right away or leave. so i asked him to leave. he cracked a tantrum and said i sucked as a DM.

GOD I HATE PLAYERS WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT NO MEANS!!!!!

[Seffbasilisk]

Why did you invite that player again?

[Assassinfox]

Eberron was kinda built to accomodate anything WoTC could throw at you. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to find a place for Star Elves.

Still, I think the average intelligence of your group just skyrocketed with the loss of that player.

[Matthew]

Well, bearing in mind that we only have access to one side of the story, it sounds like you are better off without him. Of course, there are a few reasons why cutting him loose might not be an attractive solution. Is he a good friend of yours and will this harm your friendship? Was he just having a bad day and brought his baggage with him? Did this incident blow out of proportion for some out of game reason?

[ADZAELL]

Eberron was kinda built to accomodate anything WoTC could throw at you. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to find a place for Star Elves.

Still, I think the average intelligence of your group just skyrocketed with the loss of that player.

Personally, i think if you are going to add a new set of elves, it breaks verisimilitude. you need a breeding population of 10,000 humans for a viable population apparantly. so there would be 9,999 other star elves around. why haven't they been mentioned before, where did they come from?

[Matthew]

Plane Shifting? Spell Jammer? The Wizards did it!

[Nerd-o-rama]

You can fit almost anything from a WotC source into Eberron.

However, the lesson you've accepted, and the one your player needs to learn, is that in this case just because you can doesn't mean you should. And since you're the DM, you decide what should be included. Kudos for standing your ground, although I reserve the right to change that opinion if we ever hear the other side of the story.

Commence personal rambling:

Personally, I've considered adapting some of the ninjillion elven subrace statlines to the various Eberron elven cultures; Grey Elves for the Aerenal, Wood Elves for the Valenar, keeping High Elf stats for the Khorvaire elves, and maybe changing their favored class to bard. Not sure where to fit in all the FR subraces, and in my most recent Eberron game, I actually specified "all sourcebooks that don't go to another campaign setting" on allowed books.

[Assassinfox]

They could be random flukes. Maybe one in every 20 elves is born a star elf? They could be considered "really weird looking elves" instead of a separate race.

[ambu]

Yes we do have just the one side of the story, but really if he tried to sneak the Star elf under the DM's nose the he really should leave. Since he seemed to care only for the 20 in Charisma, it seems that he would play a vacuum cleaner of some wizard book (Complete servant?) said that cleaners get +2 to Cha...

[afternoon]

It's hilarious that this player threw a temper tantrum because their bard wasn't able to have a 20 charisma at first level.

[clericwithnogod]

Sometimes it helps to write out campaign-specific rules and house rules and send them in advance of a player joining the group. It sucks as a player to show up at a session and find out there are a bunch of house rules that make the game such that you won't enjoy playing (or that there is nothing of interest for you in the campaign setting).

Of course, sometimes it doesn't help. You can write out a list of 30 approved books for feats, classes and prestige classes and a list of 30 approved races and, unless you ask for sheets in advance, at the first session you can count on getting one player with a race and class completely outside the campaign-specific list of sources and another player with a monster template from a campaign source that he tries to rules lawyer you into accepting.

[Orzel]

In Brooklyn, we punch people for this. We puch people for all lot of reasons though. Punching is fun. The DM is law.

[The Great Skenardo]

It's hilarious that this player threw a temper tantrum because their bard wasn't able to have a 20 charisma at first level.

I've got a player like this. We roll stats, and unless he has rolled at least one 18, he is convinced his character sucks and will either try and reroll him or get him killed at the earliest opportunity.

[The Pink Ninja]

Heh, I support your standing up in the face of Imperialist PC oppression.

Vive La DM!

[Kiero]

How did you get into playing the session, only to discover what he's got isn't what was agreed at chargen?

[Renegade Paladin]

Because the bard had 20 CHA. He said that already.

[Kiero]

Because the bard had 20 CHA. He said that already.

You missed the point. Presumably he had 20 Charisma because he was a Star Elf, something that the GM had explicitly said was not allowed in chargen.

I'm asking how it is the player was able to get from chargen, to starting the session having completely ignored what the GM told him. And why the GM didn't even notice.

[Renegade Paladin]

Possibly because the DM said no and assumed that was that and that he'd build his character with a normal elf rather than checking every step of the way. I only audit my players' character sheets every few levels.

[Mike_G]

I've got a player like this. We roll stats, and unless he has rolled at least one 18, he is convinced his character sucks and will either try and reroll him or get him killed at the earliest opportunity.

One reason I switched to point buy in my campaigns.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

In my campaign, this character would be forced to play a kobold adept. One who is slave to one or two other party members.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I was thinking of creating all the characters MYSELF (as DM) and then handing them out by lot. I bet it'd be hard to find players to accept that.

The beauty is that you don't have to show the players their character's sheet (well, you'd tell them their spells and what they were good at but not specif numbers) and can make all the rolls yourself therefore completely destroying any metagaming.

Probably best to do to a group who prefer freeform when you're a DM who hates freeform.

[Mike_G]

I was thinking of creating all the characters MYSELF (as DM) and then handing them out by lot. I bet it'd be hard to find players to accept that.

The beauty is that you don't have to show the players their character's sheet (well, you'd tell them their spells and what they were good at but not specif numbers) and can make all the rolls yourself therefore completely destroying any metagaming.

Probably best to do to a group who prefer freeform when you're a DM who hates freeform.

Many players wouldn't enjoy that. Part of the fun is building a character.

Point buy, careful monitoring of wealth and magic items, and being clear on what's allowed works fine for us.

[Woot Spitum]

You may have to make your players create their characters while you are around to supervise. That way, when they start pulling out the Forgotten Realms books, you're there to tell them not to even think about it.

Also rule that in Eberron, Star elves exist, but their stats don't differ from ordinary elves.

[Assassinfox]

Also rule that in Eberron, Star elves exist, but their stats don't differ from ordinary elves.

Sounds like the only reason why the player wanted to be a star elf was so he could have his precious 20 Charisma at level 1.

[blackfox]

"Can I be a dragon?"
"No."
"Can I be a great wyrm gold dragon?"
"No."
"What about a very, very young dragon?"
"No."
"It wouldn't unbalance the campaign at all! I could play a very young brass dragon; 7 HD and a +3 LA adds up to level 10, I could just start out with no levels and--"
"No."
"What about a wyrmling brass dragon? 4 HD and a +2 LA and 4 class levels?"
"No."
"What about a wyrmling brass dragon and no character levels?"
"No. Get away from my Monster Manual."
"What about a wyrmling white dragon with no character levels?"
"Gah!" *patience snaps*
[hr]Well, what can I say about that that Assassinfox hasn't said already?

[greenknight]

He told me that it was in a wizards book so he was entitled to use it. I told him he had to change it.

Maybe your player should be reading something else that's in a Wizards book. Like the 3.5e PHB, p6, which says CHECK WITH YOUR DUNGEON MASTER. I don't always agree with a DM's ruling myself, and while I will sometimes question a particular ruling, in the end, the DM's word is law. In this case, you stated the rule prior to chargen, the player questioned it (which I see no problem with), and you said no again. That should have been the end of the matter, and if the player really didn't like it he should have left the game rather than go against your specific ruling. Sounds to me like it's the player who's the noob, not you.

[Maryring]

"Um, duh, Star Elf, NOOB!".

"A shooting star falls from heaven and annihilates your character, by power of the DM."

I can accept most things, but answering like that is just... First of all, when you play DnD, you're not playing a stupid MMORPG where you can get away with painful words like that. Second, he had no reason to know you were playing a star elf since he trusted you. Third, YOU WERE NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY THAT RACE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I would say that you did right in standing by your ruling. If a player can't handle even that, he should return to playing WoW or Runescape.

"Can I be a dragon?"
"No."
"Can I be a great wyrm gold dragon?"

"Yes. Unfortunately you are killed because your hoard is needed to fund the BBEG's plan on taking over the world. Roll up a new character which primary purpose is not to give more money to the evil guys."

I was thinking of creating all the characters MYSELF (as DM) and then handing them out by lot.

I have wanted to do that many times. Mostly because one doesn't know how to make a character, one makes very cheesy characters which are ultimately useless, one makes characters that are just useless and one player makes good characters. Together... most of the time is spent on them making characters. Honestly, the quickest of them spends 3 times more time than I do on making a character. Still, character creation is fun, and it is the only thing my players do well. So I let them. Besides, I wouldn't like being handed a character and told "this is you. Play him."

[Dark]

Actually, the best campaign I've ever played in started with the DM handing us our character sheets. I don't remember if we got a choice of who played which character, but the result worked very well. The DM also determined much of our backgrounds, and told us that we were in the military of a city that had just been moved to a new world, sent out on a scouting mission.

The line between campaign building and character creation can be fuzzy :)

[Krellen]

I wouldn't be friends with a person like this, so I've never had this problem at my table. Hurray high standards!

[BoneLord]

In the last game I tried to DM, I would up with 3 human paladins with greatswords, a human ranger with a greatsword, and a kobold cleric who the paladins kicked around for run. I was irked enough that I actually let them fight a 5th level wight cleric at first level. Most of them did not come back for another game.

The one paladin who did survive (by running away before the fight even started) had a player who continued to look over my screen, and roll his d20 into a pile of identical d20s right up against the DM screen, then declare that he rolled a natural 20 before I even got the chance to look at it. It didn't help much that he had played the module I was running twice before and kept trying to "help" things along. We also had two new players, including a "biter" who told us the story of how he had bitten his teacher once in high school for trying to take away his snack in the middle of class. After the second session was over, I simply did not go back to that game store for a month or two. Several people were angry with me for not showing up to several games even though I put out the word that the game was canceled.

I also have a friend who likes to DM "Old School." When I poked a dead kobold with a longspear earlier this week, he ruled that I stepped up to the kobold and triggered a trap. It seems like this sort of thing happens [not infrequently] to me in his games so I argued with him about it for a minute before the arrow trap missed and I simply gave up. He seems to delight in keeping things exciting by attempting to kill characters. It didn't help much that I was playing an NPC warrior 1 because both my characters had died in the game session before. Wierdly, my NPC fared better than any of the other characters and ended up saving them from an ambush of kobolds.

Anyways, I don't know if there was any point to this, except to complain about other games I have run or played in. Don't let someone ruin your game just because he feels like being obnoxious and deliberately ignorant. The goal is for the players to have fun, and for the DM to have fun helping the players to have fun rather than for anyone to make anyone else miserable.