Capital pain

[Chaswe]

So in our last adventure my paladin Richard Burstfire was awarded soverignty over a province which would be all well and fine IF my capital city wasnt a cesspool! I have corrupt landowners oppressed halfings......corrupt gaurds and starving and out of work peasents..............We have disscussed a few options within our group....like changing the gaurd so it contains all races instead of humans....and our rouge has managed to be invited to a party by one of the most corrupt of the landowners so we will see what he can find out there....but regardless I need to find a way to employ hundreds and make sure they are able to support themselves.....my liege is fighting a war on two fronts ( dont ask why I am not involved yet has to do with a coven of vampires) so getting anykind of help from him is a slim to none chance. SO any and all ideas would be welcome

[PinkysBrain]

You are a paladin, you can't associate with anyone who is evil even if you wanted to. Anyone who pings on your evil-dar or continuously commits a-moral acts and who you can remove from authority you have to remove ... whether it's a good idea or not (probably not, but you don't have a choice in the matter).

[Assassinfox]

You are a paladin, you can't associate with anyone who is evil even if you wanted to. Anyone who pings on your evil-dar or continuously commits a-moral acts and who you can remove from authority you have to remove ... whether it's a good idea or not (probably not, but you don't have a choice in the matter).

... if that's you or your DM's interpretation of the paladin code.

[Arang]

Offer the workless people work in the militia, sack the corrupt guards and secretly give the halflings weapons (let them know it's you, of course). Watch as the halflings tear the nobles apart (they were probably evil anyway), seize their property and hire a level 20 wizard who summons a solar ...

No, seriously, turn that cash into making more jobs and trade (upgrade the roads and the like), improve morale in the city guard to prevent corruption, then make them a disciplined fighting force. Go help out your liege with your paladiny goodness and gain much favour.

In short, jobs by improving trade and defense, get rid of the nobles by playing on the halflings' need for freedom, and make everyone happy. Except for, of course, the nobles, who will be dead.

Either that turn your population into a war machine against evil, brain wash them and watch them tear apart the nobles before turning into a disciplined iron fist (almost wrote iron fish) that will be a serious threat to anything evil in your region.

[tarbrush]

Fall suddenly and dramatically by killing them all and taking their stuff.

That's what D&D is all about after all.

[Ulzgoroth]

Not sure if it directly helps with any of the problems named, but if it isn't already being exploited the Plant Growth spell has to be considered in any sort of land-owning situation. 33% boost to harvests for a bit more than 500 acres in a level 3 spell (with no side costs, either) is...interesting. If you then take a special 20% cut of the effected harvest to feed the poor, the farmer still benefits (slightly) and you end up with boatloads of free produce.

Hm. If you're not in a hurry and can get at Diminish Plants (er, and don't consider it unpaladinlike to do this), casting it on the more difficult lords' domains could destroy them entirely.

[Attilargh]

First, gather everyone you really, really can't do without. Your second-in-command, quartermaster, captain of the guard, legal aides, everyone you have to trust. Now, Detect Evil to make sure you're not employing any Evil people, just to keep your Paladinhood and keep the people happy. Then use Detect Lies and chat with them about the province's future. If anyone checks as Evil or untrustworthy, move them to other, less vital positions.

Also, you won't fare well with slow-witted people. Intelligence is very important in those positions, and they have subordinates for everything else. Use your Charisma to convince unsuitable people to accept some other work where they can use their abilities to the fullest.

Then find out who handle the actual work. Overseers, sergeants of the guard, such. Make sure they're good, upright people who have the necessary Wisdom and Charisma to get the job done with even the bad apples in the basket. Think Vimes from the Discworld novels. Practical, trustworthy and bright.

Oh, and employ divination, moles and stuff like that to stay on top of any dissenters so that no violent revolution will have time to take place.

[PinkysBrain]

... if that's you or your DM's interpretation of the paladin code.

No need for interpretation at all, it's what the PHB says ... no association with evil characters or characters which consistently offend her moral code, period.

[kamikasei]

No need for interpretation at all, it's what the PHB says ... no association with evil characters or characters which consistently offend her moral code, period.

How do you interpret "association"?

It's obviously supposed to restrict paladin PCs from adventuring with evil PCs, but whether it applies to working with evil people in the next governmental department is less clear. I wouldn't say a paladin in a position of power would necessarily have problems coming to an understanding with an evil nobleman in a position of legitimate authority.

I think we need more information as to just what is wrong in this province. Most problems should be resolvable given that you have good, at-will means of determining if a prospective subordinate is trustworthy. Consider what effect sacking corrupt guards and bureaucrats will have, whether there are qualified people from whom to draw replacements, and whether the 'oppressed' will cause problems in turn if/when they gain power.

[Attilargh]

Oh, right! Convert the masses to your god, if they aren't already. If they are, set up a prophet to reinfoce that belief. Find the most charismatic, Good person of the province (or bring one from the neighbouring lands) and instruct her to make her way slowly towards your capital, preaching Good and the fall of the wicked as she goes. Then welcome her warmly, and *poof*, you should have a whole province of Good people utterly devoted to you.

An alternative approach is to set up a prophet to preach the coming of the one who will lift the oppressed, bring down the corruption, etc. etc. (That means you, by the way.)

[Assassinfox]

If paladins fell for not smiting down every evildoer they came across, Hinjo would have fallen a long time ago.

[PinkysBrain]

How do you interpret "association"?

To keep company with.

I wouldn't say a paladin in a position of power would necessarily have problems coming to an understanding with an evil nobleman in a position of legitimate authority.

I would say he would refuse to work together with him and remove him from authority if he legally can.

[Assassinfox]

I would say he would refuse to work together with him and remove him from authority if he legally can.

Emphasis on the legally part. I think he'd need a better reason to sack someone than just "He's EEEEEVILLLLLLLL!"

[Nerd-o-rama]

Please don't turn this into another Paladin debate. For the sake of my fragile little sanity, I ask you please not to derail this interesting topic with something that has been gone over 5,000 times in 5,000,000 different threads.

The key to dealing with pervasive corruption is to start enforcing the law, quickly and efficiently. Find those guards that are loyal to you and to the spirit of the law. Promote them and have them investigate, shake down, and/or arrest those who are abusing their power, backed up by you and your party. Once you've cleaned house in the guard, set them on the nobles. If their corruption breaks the law of the land and you have loyal enforcement officials, they're done. If not, well, it gets a lot more complex. You can hire the better-hearted impoverished types to re-staff your guard after you clean house, and for the rest of them, I like Ulzgoroth's idea of having a Druid create a produce windfall, and then instituting a "Druid Tax" to help the poor not starve in the street. Alternatively, ship them all off to your king's army. I call it a "full employment act".

[kamikasei]

Please don't turn this into another Paladin debate. For the sake of my fragile little sanity, I ask you please not to derail this interesting topic with something that has been gone over 5,000 times in 5,000,000 different threads.

Not my intention. The paladin's alignment and Code issues are relevant here, though. The solutions open to you if you consider it unacceptable to enlist the aid of a possibly evil-aligned nobleman or politician are going to be different to those available if you're willing to work with them.

For myself, I think if a paladin's actions are that restricted, he shouldn't be in politics in the first place. Since the OP is in this situation already, I'd say talk to the DM to clarify what you can do without violating your oaths and/or alignment, and then proceed. I agree that the first step should be enforcing the law and clearing out corruption where you have the power to do so. I would also say: don't overreach. If you make enemies of all the powerful people in the area that won't help the people, it'll just mean they'll continue to operate outside the law; if you can circumscribe their activities and make sure it's in their interests to play nice, you'll be much better off. Start from the bottom up via the means suggested by others - bringing in druids to help the farmers is an excellent idea. Provide a boost in prosperity for those who are currently badly-off; arrange matters so that the people on the top will profit by this only if they behave well. Gather and strengthen your own base of power to let you enforce that.

Remember that your ultimate aim is not that there be no evil people in the city, or that no one evil should do well out of your coming to power. If half the nobles and merchants in town are evil and end up prospering after all's said and done, that's perfectly acceptable so long as the poor and the good and the people in general are themselves doing well, and so long as the evil are not free to abuse others.

[Hallavast]

No need for interpretation at all, it's what the PHB says ... no association with evil characters or characters which consistently offend her moral code, period.

Yes yes. We're all aware that the paladin's code as written in the book is less than satisfactory. However, for the purposes of this discussion, that fact is beside the point. The original poster's dm obviously doesn't use that particular clause in the code, so can we try to come up with something constructive instead of just repeating why some of us don't like paladin fluff as it's written in the book?

[bosssmiley]

So in our last adventure my paladin Richard Burstfire was awarded soverignty over a province which would be all well and fine IF my capital city wasnt a cesspool! I have corrupt landowners oppressed halfings......corrupt gaurds and starving and out of work peasents..............We have disscussed a few options within our group....like changing the guard so it contains all races instead of humans....and our rouge has managed to be invited to a party by one of the most corrupt of the landowners so we will see what he can find out there....but regardless I need to find a way to employ hundreds and make sure they are able to support themselves.....my liege is fighting a war on two fronts (dont ask why I am not involved yet has to do with a coven of vampires) so getting anykind of help from him is a slim to none chance. SO any and all ideas would be welcome

Read Patrician Vetinari's "The Servant".

Seriously? Thorough-going social and economic reform sounds like a good start. As a famous paladin your character will start with a reputation for honour, integrity and fair-dealing: exploit this rep to get done what needs to be done.

Try to do what the 16th century 'new states' of Europe did and align the power of the crown with the numbers of the commons against the corrupt and over-mighty magnates. Then, when the magnates are squealing, offer them a deal that allows them to retain their social privilege shorn of the manifestly unjust aspects. Everyone wins, but credits you with bringing justice and harmony to the land.

Don't be afraid to recruit talent from almost any source.
Offer the rogue a better deal (the position of state treasurer, postmaster general, master of the mint, etc.) than the nobles can.
Allow your cleric and druid buddies to proselytize on condition they assist in alleviating poverty.
Find a Vimes analogue (a good-aligned fighter or urban ranger) to make your watch into servants of the law and protectors of the peace, rather than uniformed thugs.
Your wizardly mates? Subsidise their research from the state coffers in return for assistance in gathering rare spell components and the like.
Recruit the noisiest protestors against your rule into a council you control and dump some of the problems into their laps to solve (gotta love co-option).

Machiavelli's "The Prince", More's "Utopia" (esp. Part 1) and Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" should be your paladin's bibles of reform.