Players Wanna Kill a God

[ObsidianRose]

Now, in my upcoming campaign, the players will be sons of Zeus with their divine rank 0 blocked for almost the whole campaign, along with a king of fallen Sparta. Basically, it's gonna be a Greek era thing, and they're all people Hera would have issues with, as theyre either descendants of Zeus or Heracles. The whole campaign is going to be motivated by running from and fighting Hera, along with fighitng in classical battles that she will have caused, such as Thermopylae and Plataea. They'll be playing from level 1 to level 20 and eventually end up having to confront Hera. Now, does anyone have experience with stuff lik this, and is there a good way to conduct the mass combat and ensuing god battle? The players will be kicked up to about level 60 immediately preceding the battle (blessing from the Allfather?), but that divine rank 15 seems like an issue. Suggestions?

[Stagger Lee]

A level 60 character is maybe a quarter as powerful as divine rank 15. Level 20 characters can probably be OHKOd. Maybe you should have your players be leading an army against Hera, or fighting her with another rank 15 god. Those would be more realistic.

[OOTS_Rules.]

Zeus should help them.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Hmm, I don't think you should have another god help them. I mean, it kind of takes away the fun when the player isn't the actual person killing the god.

Maybe get some items in there that they receive as the campaign goes on. Items that have artifact quality and have specifically been made to destroy Hera. They are basically winning the battle only because of the items, but because they had to work so hard, and spend session after session acquiring them, it wont feel like a cheap win. Although I suppose you could do the same thing with a god. Like they had to spend the whole campaign trying to convince him to help by doing heroic deeds for him, etc.

[Ramza00]

What are hera's Salient Divine Abilities again?

They make a big difference (if hera has alter reality, just give up, its impossible.)

Also her class levels.

[Roderick_BR]

Hmmm... maybe allow them to start with the Half-Celestial template, them get them into epic level. The better chance they could have. About level 40-60, a whole group has a chance of fighting a god.

[ObsidianRose]

Thanks for all the suggestions. And yeah, she has alter reality. So, I'll be giving the Spartan fighter the Aegis of Athena (bonuses to Dexterity and Constitution, along with spell turning) and the Spear of Leonidas (10d6 With Returning and Evil Outsider Bane, Automatic Weapon Focus Tree with the spear, along with Supremacy, and all those other nice things, and a bonus to Strength). The Divine Caster will receive the Noose of the North God (Bonuses to Wisdom and Constitution along with a caster level bonus, autosucceed all concentration, knowledge, spot, and listen checks. The Arcane Caster will get the helm of Hades (Immune to Death Effects and Mind-Effecting, bonuses to caster level and inteligence), and the skill monkey will get the Bow of Odysseus, granting inteligence and dexterity bonuses, sneak attack, and a +10 bonus to all skills. In addition, if we have a barbarian will get the Club and Pelt of Achiles, the Ranger will get the Bow of Orion, the Bard will gain the Pan Pipes and Lyre of Apollo, and the Monk will get the Sandals of Hermes.

Opinions? Should it be enough to take down a 60 HD Divine rank 15 goddess with Alter Reality?

[Illiterate Scribe]

If you're willing to give up all of your magic/supernatural stuff (i.e. be a ToB character), a planar bubble from the outlands will shut down the divine ranks of a character.

EDIT: Although how you could justify it being their is another matter. Maybe some sort of Titan's aura (given that they pretty much negated the Olympians power); rename it 'Aura of Prometheus' (gotta love the fire titan - his reliance on technology and knowledge, in the form of fire, could be seen as a repudiation of magic), or something.

[martyboy74]

Teleport a sword into her heart.

[Ramza00]

If you're willing to give up all of your magic/supernatural stuff (i.e. be a ToB character), a planar bubble from the outlands will shut down the divine ranks of a character.

EDIT: Although how you could justify it being their is another matter. Maybe some sort of Titan's aura (given that they pretty much negated the Olympians power); rename it 'Aura of Prometheus' (gotta love the fire titan - his reliance on technology and knowledge, in the form of fire, could be seen as a repudiation of magic), or something.

They will still lose, and lose badly. This is because Hera has the alter reality ability.

The deity can duplicate any spell of 9th level or lower as a standard action. The duplicated spell has no material or XP component, and the DC of its saving throw (if one is allowed) is 20 + the deity’s rank + the deity’s Charisma modifier.

Thus she can cast all 9th lvl spells in the game with no xp components.

The deity also can duplicate a spell with any metamagic feat (so long as the metamagic feat is available to characters of 20th level or lower)

She can make those spells persistent (she doesn't have to).

The deity can render a magical or supernatural effect permanent. The rest requirement varies with the effect: 10 minutes per level of the effect times the number of subjects affected, 10 minutes per total Hit Dice of creatures affected, or 10 minutes per 10-foot cube affected. Use the highest applicable value.

After she has the effects on her she can make them permanent. Delay Death Permanent, Divine Power, Shapechange, Wraithstrike, Hunter's Eye, Energy Immunity, Favor of the Martyr, Giant Size, I can go on, Antimagic Field (after modifying it so it doesn't effect herself via that Complete Arcane Feat). Every good buffing spell ever she can have on herself.

This little clause of Alter Reality is a critical part of how Pun Pun ascends to Godhood, else many of his tricks would wear off due to duration.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, he's actually reffering to the Concordant Domains of the Outlands. Within 100 miles of the center, no spells work, and All divine powers are annulled (supernatural and spell-like abilities are long gone). Hera would be left with her HD, skill, and Ex class features (as would anyone fighting her in there).

If you make a planar bubble around Hera, that pulls the effects from the Concordant Domains of the Outlands, and keep her in there....

[Variable Arcana]

Lots of good points here...

But remember: D&D is a game. You're playing with your friends, telling a story together.

If you've enjoyed yourselves, and enjoy the story you've written together... then you've done it right.

That said... Hera's one of the greater gods -- and her tormenting Zeus's offspring is a classic theme -- and no deity in Greek Mythos is ever actually killed (even the Titans are just defeated and imprisoned). If I were you, I'd have the climactic battle be against a major Aspect of Hera -- with the Aspect's death putting a serious crimp in Hera's ability to directly intervene in this world (and thus torment the party) for some period of time, say a century. That's a pretty reasonable goal for a group of people she's been hounding from one end of the world to the other...

[Ramza00]

Well, he's actually reffering to the Concordant Domains of the Outlands. Within 100 miles of the center, no spells work, and All divine powers are annulled (supernatural and spell-like abilities are long gone). Hera would be left with her HD, skill, and Ex class features (as would anyone fighting her in there).

If you make a planar bubble around Hera, that pulls the effects from the Concordant Domains of the Outlands, and keep her in there....

You will still lose, for you are left with the trick how do you get Hera in the bubble. You will now have to surprise her and to do so is ni impossible, she is like an epic level wizard but so much better.

Lets put it this way. Hera casts timestop via alter reality. She finds you while still in the timestop effects (casting timestop again and again as long as she needs) She has nigh infinite time. (Using the epic feats that grant her maximize, twin, and/or empower for free). What would a wizard do during near infinite time to destroy her enemies? Well that is what Hera would do.

[Ramza00]

That said... Hera's one of the greater gods -- and her tormenting Zeus's offspring is a classic theme -- and no deity in Greek Mythos is ever actually killed (even the Titans are just defeated and imprisoned). If I were you, I'd have the climactic battle be against a major Aspect of Hera -- with the Aspect's death putting a serious crimp in Hera's ability to directly intervene in this world (and thus torment the party) for some period of time, say a century. That's a pretty reasonable goal for a group of people she's been hounding from one end of the world to the other...

Well said, just destroy a Hera avatar. Else you are going to have to completely rewrite hera, and D&D salient divine abilities.

[Kantolin]

Or, alternately, just reduce Hera such that by the end of the story she is defeatable.

'By traveling to speak to Hades and Poseidon the heroes obtained X and Y items/gifts/boons which make it possible to defeat Hera'

I mean... if the point of the story is to go beat up a diety, then by the end, have a heroic confrontation with a diety that is within the realm of being beaten for some reason. If you'd like her to begin far more powerful than that, give the heroes something(s) that fluffwise are making her so, and drop her to a beatable level for a time limit.

Although in the vein of dieties, I'm also for 'Destruction and imprisonment, but not 'death' per se', as that seems to fit the greek panthenon more accurately, but hey.

[Fizban]

Well, you have either the obvious DM fiat method of "X strips Hera of her divine powers, leaving her at DV 0", where X is a higher god/artifact/natural phenomina/whatever. You also have the Aspect battle suggested, or the outlands bubble.

I like the planar bubble method, but the trick remains getting hera into it, I'd suggest that she do it of her own will, thinking that she can defeat them anyway. If you actually send them to outland it works even better, since she can't just reactivate her powers and crush them. This plan depends heavily on two things. 1: if the plane of outland exists (probably not as it's a greek campaign), and 2: if all the charaters can function with only Ex abilities. Unless they're all fighters or ToB's with Ex only abilities probably not.

[AtomicKitKat]

Always classic:

"Ahh, but can you turn into TWO animals at once, like a chicken and a worm?"

[Foeofthelance]

As for the planar bubble, why not just habe Zues kick them there at the beginning of the fight? They ascend Olympus, challenge Hera, she comes out kicking and screaming and spitting flames...the next thing you know, you're all in the Concordant Domains, with the sound of Zeus's voice, "Sorry dear, but we just did the carpet last century and all that. I'm sure you understand..." Also sort of his last favor to his kids before the big battle, all while giving him an out.

[PinkysBrain]

Level 60? Do not go there ... they will need a year to finish their character sheets, and the game breaks down in high epic anyway.

Just bring Hera down to their level instead.

[Dervag]

It would be more in keeping with the style of Greek mythology if they were to imprison Hera somehow; this would also make it somewhat more plausible that mortals might actually be able to do it.

[JadedDM]

I don't know if Zeus would overtly help fight his own wife. He may lend a hand in some indirect way, but only if he could be sure it couldn't be traced back to him.

[jlousivy]

only possible way without major dm fiat is through the direct intervention of an equally strong or stronger diety or through artifacts (made by a diety of a higher rank) that directly enfeeble the god, namely her spellcasting power

[Fizban]

I'd say that something to keep in mind is that if you're using divine ranks and abilites, it's pretty much impossible to suprise and therefore take down anyone with more than divine rank 5. So you should probably make the gods of your world (assuming it hasn't actually come up yet) without the DV rules. Just make them really strong outsiders with lots of abilities.

I would suggest also the idea of stealing some sort of artifact from the gods to weaken Hera (say, a thunderbolt), but that requires the god to be suprisable, which doesn't work with DnD gods.

[Lapak]

I'd have to agree with the 'let them confront an avatar or Aspect of Hera' camp. No matter what she's done, killing Hera would succeed in only one thing in the long run: Pissing Off Zeus. He may cheat on her all the time, but she is both his big sister and his wife. Killing her is not an action calculated to please him.

And if you thought that they had trouble with a DR 15 god they spent a whole campaign setting up specifically to fight, you ain't seen nothing yet.

[Luircin]

I, too, am throwing my hat into the "aspect" camp. Besides, sometimes it's more fun to defeat and taunt an enemy than just killing her outright, especially if you know that she can't do anything about it.

If you want to have them face the "real deal," so to speak, I recommend a "formal" challenge. Goddess willingly sets aside her salient divine abilities for the duration of the duel, and each side wagers something on the outcome. The PCs of course could only bargain with their souls, but Hera could bargain with... say... entering into a binding pact to leave the characters alone for the rest of eternity.

[Jack_Simth]

You will still lose, for you are left with the trick how do you get Hera in the bubble. You will now have to surprise her and to do so is ni impossible, she is like an epic level wizard but so much better.

Lets put it this way. Hera casts timestop via alter reality. She finds you while still in the timestop effects (casting timestop again and again as long as she needs) She has nigh infinite time. (Using the epic feats that grant her maximize, twin, and/or empower for free). What would a wizard do during near infinite time to destroy her enemies? Well that is what Hera would do.

The trick is to conjour it around her before she realizes the threat, then keep her in there. I didn't say it'd be easy by any stretch.

[PnP Fan]

I definitely fall into the aspect camp. defeating a divine being should be nearly impossible. Getting gawds to help you do it should be highly unlikely as well. But that doesn't mean you can't do it. In fact I believe FR has done this a couple of times (not a fan, so I'm not sure of all my facts). I believe they did something to the cosmos of FR that forced the gawds into mortal form (i.e. their aspects were the actual gawd). If you can figure out something to force that transformation, then Hera could be killed, though it should still be a nearly impossible feat, requiring trickery and cleverness on the part of the players (something that the Greeks had in spades over their own gawds).
Also, just because there are rules for salient divine abilities and whatnot, don't feel bound to them. Greek gawds were kinda stupid most of the time, maybe they shouldn't have the abilities that grant them near-omniscience. And don't forget, many of them were anything but wise (Zeus?). If you look for their flaws and give the players the opportunity to exploit them, then you'll really catch the right flavor.

[Matthew]

Do you actually want the Adventurers to kill a Deity or an Aspect / Avatar of that Deity?

There are not a lot of dead Deities in Greek Mythology. The only one I can really think of out of hand is Zeus killing his father, but even that isn't cut and dried, since later versions indicate that he is just imprisoned.

[PinkysBrain]

If Zeus wanted Hera dead he would be better off doing it himself, it's unrealistic he would intentionally help the players.

During the course of the game he might unintentionally help them by cutting off Heras remote/portfolio sensing of the characters because she tried to kill them one too many times though. That would at least allow the players to sneak up on her.

Take into account she can feel anything up to a couple of miles though, so even superior invisibility isn't enough. I'd sneak up on her incorporeally. Then since she will have contingency (if you allow crafted contingent spells from complete arcane she will in fact have lots of contingencies) and true seeing I'd try to hit her with MDJ. Her divine dodge will make that a risky proposal though, I'd make it a twinned MDJ and have some fatespinners with me to force her to reroll if she succeed on dodging.

After that the planar bubble is probably the only road to success (since it's an area effect with duration I'd say divine dodge doesn't work). There are other ways to plant it on her, but I don't see any with as much chance of success as the above. If they get and keep her in the bubble then with a party near 20th level they'd be well matched if you throw in some minions (she is still a 40 HD large rogue 20).

So in short, work in a way to have your PCs find out about the Great Wheel ... have them go on some planar adventures through the plane of shadow, find out about planar bubble, the outlands and it's deity suppressing powers and railroad them back to the Olympian cosmology in some way for their final showdown with Hera.

Oh, in the end I think Zeus would banish them from the Olympian cosmology ... I doubt he would look too favorably on people who killed his wife.

PS. I still think it's easier to just downgrade Hera.

[Renegade Paladin]

So they want to kill a god.

First, Hera already knows. Period. Gods automatically know about plots against them one week in advance per divine rank. The only way to catch a god with there being any chance of stragetic or tactical surprise is to have a random encounter with one, which should just not happen. This generally means that if she considers them a credible threat, they will die X weeks before their plan goes into motion, with X being equal to the number of divine ranks she has; conceivably, they could die before they ever actually conceive of their plot against her. And I don't mean they'll be attacked; I mean they'll up and die. The power of a greater, or even upper intermediate, deity cannot be denied except by another powerful god.