Prestige Mistakes

[Krellen]

Radiant Servant of Pelor and Sacred Exorcist both fully advance cleric spellcasting with virtually no downside, so you might consider those.

I was looking through Complete Divine this week, and this comment in another thread made me want to bring up the subject I thought of when I first noticed it:

Is there any good reason for a Cleric to not adopt one of these two prestige classes?

He continues to gain his spellcasting and his turning abilities, gains a bonus to saving throws, and gathers a bunch of other class features on top of that. What's the downside? Why bother staying a Cleric?

For that matter, what about the Wizard/Sorcerer PrCs with full spellcasting progression? Oh no, they lost their familiar; I think the Giant's portrayal of Blackwing, V's familiar, reflects how much a sacrifice the familiar is for most PCs.

Any other ridiculously designed PrCs?

[Khantalas]

Radiant Servant of Pelor has a d6 hit die. Slows down your tanking slightly.

[The Gilded Duke]

Usually almost no reason not to go prestige, few classes have good features at higher levels. And Familiars... wonderful things for bards and rogues. When I play a bard I usually pick up a raven, they share your skills and can speak common.

Now you get double the social.

[Jasdoif]

Hierophant has the opposite problem, with its lack of spellcasting progression. All these nifty abilities to modify spells, instead of getting better spells?

[Krellen]

Bards don't get familiars.

[Swordguy]

The answer to your question is no, there is in fact NOT a good reason to pick up PrCs. This is called "codex creep" (after the GW problem). Essentially, the newer material tends to have cooler and more powerful stuff so you'll buy it.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Green Star Adept is fairly good; +15 caster level (though that really is a mistake).

[Tellah]

@Krellen: They can take Obtain Familiar from Complete Arcane.

[Bears With Lasers]

Green Star Adept is fairly good; +15 caster level (though that really is a mistake).

Yeah, that's only if you misread it.

[The_Snark]

There's a feat that'll let any arcane caster get a famiiar. Which, incidentally, completely negates any disadvantage from those sorcerer/wizard prestige classes if you really want a familiar for some reason.

This is a problem for some of these classes. When it's the Alienist, it's not so bad; you boost saves at the expense of Wisdom, you get a few extra HP at the expense of the ability to interact normally, you can replace fiendish summoned creatures with pseudonatural ones, and you have to invest in a couple feats to get in. It's its own drawback.

When it's the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, where you get powerful extra abilities in exchange for a couple feats, then there's a problem.

Sacred Exorcist isn't even all that bad, since it doesn't give all that much (I think), but the free-ability PrCs are a problem. And Radiant Servant is powerful.

[MeklorIlavator]

Really, the IotSV is completely insane, especially if you use the master specialist.

[Krellen]

The answer to your question is no, there is in fact NOT a good reason to pick up PrCs. This is called "codex creep" (after the GW problem). Essentially, the newer material tends to have cooler and more powerful stuff so you'll buy it.

I've played Rifts - so at least I can say "at least D&D isn't as bad as Rifts".

[Proven_Paradox]

I'll plan to houserule tests for those kind of classes. And by "tests" I mean full blown quests in which PCs are going to have to invest time, money, and probably blood. Sometimes with zero XP for the person taking the quest, if they're taking a class I deem particularly powerful like Radiant Servant (though it wouldn't be fair to the rest of the party if they didn't get XP either). That usually evens things out a bit.

I've never tried that out though; I don't know if my players will object to that or not. They haven't tried to take any PrCs yet.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Is there any good reason for a Cleric to not adopt one of these two prestige classes?

The reason not to become a Radiant Servant of Pelor is not wanting to be the healbot or undead buster. To get anything out of the class, you need to take two domains that most people don't want; Sun and Healing. Some domains are great. Those two are not. Given the choice of Cleric/RSoP or Cleric with good domains (say, Luck and Travel), I would go for the Cleric with the good domains.

[Swordguy]

I've played Rifts - so at least I can say "at least D&D isn't as bad as Rifts".

Don't worry. It's getting there.

[TheOOB]

The reason not to become a Radiant Servant of Pelor is not wanting to be the healbot or undead buster. To get anything out of the class, you need to take two domains that most people don't want; Sun and Healing. Some domains are great. Those two are not. Given the choice of Cleric/RSoP or Cleric with good domains (say, Luck and Travel), I would go for the Cleric with the good domains.

The sun and healing domains are both good domains that a cleric of pelor would likely take anyways.

As a DM, it's important not to just allow something just because WotC made it, over time they have proved time and time again that they care virtually nothing for game balance.

Currently I am working on varient casters that will replace other spellcasters in my campaigns. They will all be spontaneous, they will all use MAD casting (ala favored souls), and they will all have a lot to lose from prestige classing as a lot of their spells known/per day will come from class abilities rather then caster level, and thus while you do improve in power with PrCs, someone with the full base class will have a lot more spells.

[Aquillion]

Dweomerkeeper. Full spell progression, yadda yadda. At 4th level you get the Supernatural Spell ability, which lets you cast one of your prepared spell once per day as a Supernatural Ability, which doesn't provoke an attack of opportunty and negates the need for compontents. Note that that's not just material components; like any normal SU ability, spells 'cast' with Supernatural Spell ability have no xp, gp, verbal and somantic components (though they do use up your prepared spell).

Unlimited money with True Creation. Unlimited free Resurrections. Unlimited everything with Limited Wish / Wish / Miracle. And the prestige class basically costs you nothing!

[Jack_Simth]

Currently I am working on varient casters that will replace other spellcasters in my campaigns. They will all be spontaneous, they will all use MAD casting (ala favored souls), and they will all have a lot to lose from prestige classing as a lot of their spells known/per day will come from class abilities rather then caster level, and thus while you do improve in power with PrCs, someone with the full base class will have a lot more spells.

I've actually been toying with all spontaneous casters for games I run (well, except for Paladins, Rangers, and classes with similarly capped spells).

Clerics: Use the PHB Sorcerer spells known table (selected from the Cleric list) with Domain spells as bonus spells known (but no spontaneous Cure/Inflict, unless they are spells known), the Cleric spells per day (minus the domain slots). At odd levels, the highest level spells known will be domain spells only.
Wizards: Use the PHB Sorcerer spells known table (selected from the Sor/Wiz list). Specialist Wizards do not get extra spells per day; instead, they get extra spells known from their specialty school (one per spell level where they have spells per day) but cannot know spells from their forbidden schools. Note: I do not expect to see any generalist Wizards under this setup.
Druids: Use the PHB Sorcerer spells known table (selected from the Druid list), with the Summon Nature's Ally line as bonus spells known.
Sorcerers: Spells Known/Per day as in the PHB, bonus feats (as the Wizard) at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th, d6 HD, 4 + Int Skill points per level, use magic Device as a class skill, and can get their spells known off of any spell list (yes, a 10th level Sorcerer can take Heal from the Adept spell list from the DMG as a 5th level spell known - it's still an Arcane spell for the Sorcerer, though). The catch: a spell is not considered on the Sorcerer's class list unless it is also on the Sorcerer's known list (or it's faked with UMD). So if a Sorcerer wants to use wands, scrolls, and staves to suppliment their lack of spells known, they have to make a skill check for it (in addition to buying or getting it crafted - which, as I'm running a low wealth campaign, is kinda tricky).

Universally, metamagic takes no extra time.

Wizard's, Clerics, and Druids lose the benefits of having every spell available (so they can't dominate an encounter where they know what they'll be facing), but gain the benefits of spontaneous casting (which, as a DM, makes them a little more predictable). It also makes spellcasters of the same class farily different from each other - they have to pick and choose their spells carefully. Meanwhile, the Sorcerer gets a little bitty boost for not having as much mystic finess.

Dweomerkeeper. Full spell progression, yadda yadda. At 4th level you get the Supernatural Spell ability, which lets you cast one of your prepared spell once per day as a Supernatural Ability, which doesn't provoke an attack of opportunty and negates the need for compontents. Note that that's not just material components; like any normal SU ability, spells 'cast' with Supernatural Spell ability have no xp, gp, verbal and somantic components (though they do use up your prepared spell).

Unlimited money with [i]True Creation[i]. Unlimited free Resurrections. Unlimited everything with Limited Wish / Wish / Miracle. And the prestige class basically costs you nothing!

It has a hidden lost spellcasting level - you need both arcane and divine spells, and a particular domain, so you pretty much need to drop a level in Cleric (or, alternately, drop a level in Wizard) to meet the requirements. And it only advances one side. Makes a nifty class to end the career of the Wizard-3/Cleric-3/Mystic Theurge-10, though.

[TheOOB]

Of course, after being a mystic theurge an overpowered PrC is needed.

[Zincorium]

Of course, after being a mystic theurge an overpowered PrC is needed.

Fohlucan Lyricist is my personal favorite. Full double spell progression, full BAB, and I can wear metal armor as a druid? What's not to love?

The prerequisites aren't even that bad, really.

[TheOOB]

Not that bad? You normally have to be triple classed, including one full spellcaster, one mid spellcaster, and one non-spellcaster. Your abilities in each will be pretty far behind by the time you take the class.

[Jack_Simth]

Of course, after being a mystic theurge an overpowered PrC is needed.

No lo contendre. But for the Cleric-1/Wiz-4/Dweomerkeeper-10/Archmage-5, it's still a lost spellcasting level (cleric side basically useless, other than using wands of Cure Light and the like). Mind you, the infinite wealth loophole (Wish has 25k mundane items on the safe list... and uncapped cost magic items merely cost extra XP... which technically go away with Su abilities) is kinda gamebreaking if abused.

[Aquillion]

It has a hidden lost spellcasting level - you need both arcane and divine spells, and a particular domain, so you pretty much need to drop a level in Cleric (or, alternately, drop a level in Wizard) to meet the requirements. And it only advances one side. Makes a nifty class to end the career of the Wizard-3/Cleric-3/Mystic Theurge-10, though.

Sorta. As a Cleric, you could take the Magical Training feat to qualify, though. Or worship a diety with the Spell domain to get Anyspell... it, incidently, also grants Limited Wish, so it's a perfect fit. Mystra would work, since she can offer both it and the Magic domain you need for Dweomerkeeper.

[Vaniel]

Shouldn't SpellCasting prestiges classes with a lot of features be reduced in their spell progression? How would, let's say, take away two levels of spell progression at the beginning and somewhere in the middle? Since you know, losing only one level, in the end, only makes you lose two spells per day, one of 8th and 9th level.

[clarkcd]

For me it depends on the scope of the campaign. In my current campaign the characters just arrived at L17 and we should have enough plot related material to take us up to 25-30th level. If you're going that high you are sacrificing future bonus epic feats for PrC abilities. The NPC cleric I'm running for the group has stayed only with cleric for just such a reason. Epic feats are usually much better than PrC abilities and if you're going to be able to use them for a significant amount of levels can be worth it.

Of course that assumes you actually go past 20th level...

[TheOOB]

Shouldn't SpellCasting prestiges classes with a lot of features be reduced in their spell progression? How would, let's say, take away two levels of spell progression at the beginning and somewhere in the middle? Since you know, losing only one level, in the end, only makes you lose two spells per day, one of 8th and 9th level.

Yes, but the number one rule of prestige classes is thou shall not give up caster levels. Virtually no ability is worth losing several spells per day/known (including 9th level spells) reducing your caster level, and slowing progression to higher level spells. If a PrC doesn't give full caster levels, it's 99/100 times not worth it.

[Darrin]

Fohlucan Lyricist is my personal favorite. Full double spell progression, full BAB, and I can wear metal armor as a druid? What's not to love?

The prerequisites aren't even that bad, really.

The prereqs for Fochlucan are a bit bizarre. Ok, well, the evasion thing mostly. You have to waste two levels on Rogue, and I'm still trying to figure out why its part of the prereqs... it doesn't fit the background all that well.

Going Green Whisperer+Arcane Heirophant is a bit more optimal. With a dip into Sublime Chord, you can get 9th level arcane and divine spells... and you can still wildshape and do bardic music, so you're a bit more useful than a Mystic Theurge.

[Jack_Simth]

Sorta. As a Cleric, you could take the Magical Training feat to qualify, though. Or worship a diety with the Spell domain to get Anyspell... it, incidently, also grants Limited Wish, so it's a perfect fit. Mystra would work, since she can offer both it and the Magic domain you need for Dweomerkeeper.

Crazyness.

Faerun Campaign setting, is it? Regional feat... still.. tasty... cheese! no bad! Must resist the cheese!

Shouldn't SpellCasting prestiges classes with a lot of features be reduced in their spell progression? How would, let's say, take away two levels of spell progression at the beginning and somewhere in the middle? Since you know, losing only one level, in the end, only makes you lose two spells per day, one of 8th and 9th level.

Should they? Yes. Do they? Not so much. See, being a level behind on the spellcasting curve is something a primary spellcaster really, really wants to avoid. To sell books, people tend to write PrC's that people will take... which almost always makes them better than the base classes (in many cases, strictly better). This causes power creep.

Then there's also the unintended interactions for things from different sources - the Magical Training feat and the spell domain's intereaction with the Dewoemerkeeper, as Aquillion pointed out, for example. Without such a thing, the Dewoemerkeeper isn't quite as strong (still a very strong class, mind) as it loses a caster level meeting the requirements.

[Ramza00]

Really, the IotSV is completely insane, especially if you use the master specialist.

How is your campaign going?

[Ramza00]

Dweomerkeeper. Full spell progression, yadda yadda. At 4th level you get the Supernatural Spell ability, which lets you cast one of your prepared spell once per day as a Supernatural Ability, which doesn't provoke an attack of opportunty and negates the need for compontents. Note that that's not just material components; like any normal SU ability, spells 'cast' with Supernatural Spell ability have no xp, gp, verbal and somantic components (though they do use up your prepared spell).

Unlimited money with True Creation. Unlimited free Resurrections. Unlimited everything with Limited Wish / Wish / Miracle. And the prestige class basically costs you nothing!

And if you have access to one supplement, godhood and the ability to assume infinite divine ranks

It has a hidden lost spellcasting level - you need both arcane and divine spells, and a particular domain, so you pretty much need to drop a level in Cleric (or, alternately, drop a level in Wizard) to meet the requirements. And it only advances one side. Makes a nifty class to end the career of the Wizard-3/Cleric-3/Mystic Theurge-10, though.

In non setting yes there is a hidden level loss. In FR there is a 1st lvl feat magical training that allows you to cast arcane cantrips, thus fulfilling the requirements without caster level lost if you go the cleric focus route.

Regardless if you do lose a caster level, the abilities are just way too good.