Character/Tactics Optimization Challenge: TWF!

[Shisumo]

Okay, so there are many, many threads out there about how TWF sucks. I'm curious about how much that inevitable fate can be minimized. I'm no great shakes at character optimization, so here's my challenge to the forum:

Build a character whose fundamental battle tactic involves using two weapons to deal damage to an enemy, and do the most damage possible to that enemy, within the following guidelines:

* The character is 20th level. All WotC-produced 3.5 books are fair game. Wraithstrike is not included, however, nor are any custom items. Initial scores are 32-point buy. (Edit: To clarify, I mean the character is ECL 20.)

* The enemy has an AC of 35, a touch AC of 20, flat-footed AC of 25, saves at +20, and makes any opposed skill checks with a +15 modifier. It has DR 10/-. Also, due to teleportation/Fly-By Attacks, it begins every turn 100' away. This can be anywhere from 0' to 100' in the air, so being able to fly is recommended. (Note: pinning the opponent down is a perfectly valid tactic if need be.) It is not humanoid.

* You have 5 turns in which to do your damage. Calculate damage by probability of a successful attack multiplied by the average damage of that strike. (This should be extended to probability of other random factors, such as failed saves, appropriately.)

So, builds and tactical options. Go!

[Rigeld2]

Wraithstrike is not included, however.

Buh? O.o Wierd.
I'll work on one.

[Shisumo]

Buh? O.o Wierd.
I'll work on one.

That's because Wraithstrike is the only thing I ban outright in my games. And from the comments on this board and elsewhere, I'm not alone in this.

[Swordguy]

Okay, so there are many, many threads out there about how TWF sucks. I'm curious about how much that inevitable fate can be minimized. I'm no great shakes at character optimization, so here's my challenge to the forum:

Build a character whose fundamental battle tactic involves using two weapons to deal damage to an enemy, and do the most damage possible to that enemy, within the following guidelines:

* The character is 20th level. All WotC-produced 3.5 books are fair game. Wraithstrike is not included, however. Initial scores are 32-point buy. (Edit: To clarify, I mean the character is ECL 20.)

* The enemy has an AC of 35, a touch AC of 20, saves at +20, and makes any opposed skill checks with a +15 modifier. It has DR 10/-. Also, due to teleportation/Fly-By Attacks, it begins every turn 100' away. This can be anywhere from 0' to 100' in the air, so being able to fly is recommended. It is not humanoid.

* You have 5 turns in which to do your damage.

So, builds and tactical options. Go!

Eh. I make a 20th level Wizard who wields 2 daggers via level-based feats. I then put them away and smoke the opposition with poorly-balanced magic.

You may want to clarify this somewhat, in terms of you must use melee-oriented classes (and even so, a CoDzilla who spends some feats to dual-wield will still be better than the melee-type).

EDIT: Nevermind. I need to read the ENTIRE post before responding. I missed the word "fundamental".

[Rigeld2]

Build a character whose fundamental battle tactic involves using two weapons to deal damage to an enemy, and do the most damage possible to that enemy, within the following guidelines:

Emphasis mine. He did say you need to use two weapons to do the damage.

[Douglas]

I've got an idea, though it may take some time to work out the details. Are custom items allowed? I would recommend limiting them to slot changes and combining multiple existing items into one with the standard 50% markup on the cheaper abilities.

[Fax Celestis]

...can I use more than two weapons? IE: Multiweapon Fighting?

[RMS Oceanic]

What kind of enhancements are we allowed on the weapons?

[AtomicKitKat]

Blade of Pain and Fear, Libris Mortis. Being able to hit with touch makes up for not getting Strength to damage(not that you will have much anyway, since you need high Dexterity to make the build somewhat viable).

[iceman]

So if the target starts every turn 100 feet away then how in the world is anyone going to do any two weapon fighting? It will take the entire turn just to catch up with the target. In order for anyone to charge the target they would have to have a movement speed of 50 feet and with the fly spell you would be able to charge but unless you have the appropriate feats (and I don't have access to those books) you can only attack with one weapon. The main benefit of two weapon fighting is getting to use a full round attack action. In this scenario it would be more beneficial to just use a two handed weapon and go for one good hit.

[Piccamo]

Are we allowed to use custom magic items?

[Douglas]

There are ways to get a full attack and move in the same round. With the build I'm working on, I really don't much care whether you're close by or not. Edit: Actually, I'd much prefer that you not be within normal full attack range. A +20 damage bonus that only works when charging can make a pretty big difference, especially when multiplied by almost a dozen attacks.

[Swordguy]

So if the target starts every turn 100 feet away then how in the world is anyone going to do any two weapon fighting? It will take the entire turn just to catch up with the target. In order for anyone to charge the target they would have to have a movement speed of 50 feet and with the fly spell you would be able to charge but unless you have the appropriate feats (and I don't have access to those books) you can only attack with one weapon. The main benefit of two weapon fighting is getting to use a full round attack action. In this scenario it would be more beneficial to just use a two handed weapon and go for one good hit.

You have to use magic items or actual magic to lock your opponent down. I was looking at things like Rings of Spell Storing (etc) or multiclassing to get that effect, but I have work to do. I'll do more later tonight when i have book access.

[Jalil]

Will the enemy make attacks also?

[Fax Celestis]

Ooh, also: do multiple natural attacks count as TWF?

[Jalil]

Are we allowed to use custom magic items?

QFE
(quoted for emphasis)

[Douglas]

If custom magic items are allowed it gets way too easy. Everyone will have use-activated items of Lion's Charge/Psionic Lion's Charge. I personally think that changing an item's slot or combining existing items should be fine, but unlimited custom items gets broken way too easily.

[Orzel]

Can you use an item to ready a forcecage when it flies by you thenTWF throwing axes through the bars?

[Lapak]

Can you use an item to ready a forcecage when it flies by you thenTWF throwing axes through the bars?

That's actually pretty inventive. :)

[iceman]

You have to use magic items or actual magic to lock your opponent down. I was looking at things like Rings of Spell Storing (etc) or multiclassing to get that effect, but I have work to do. I'll do more later tonight when i have book access.

Okay so what everyone is saying is that this is an exersize in trying to keep the target in one spot with magic so that you can get your full attack off?

I suppose you could use two weapon rend & pounce from PHB2(?) but I unfortunately don't have access to the specs of those feats (as i'm sure quite a few others don't either).

The situational aspect of this challenge is going to force a lot of the builds to look very similar because to be able

[SpiderBrigade]

I have to chime in and agree, in wondering why on earth the challenge involves the target always being so far away. That factor means that only a few very specific types of TWF-build will be effective, which are not necessarily the "best" builds in a more generic situation. For instance a TWFer optimized for this challenge might be very weak against a THF-full-attacker who WANTS to trade full-attacks with you.

I mean, I think maybe I see your idea, which is to set up a situation where it will be very hard for the TWFer to do his thing...if he can beat it, then he should be fine in situations where it's EASY to do his thing. But because of the specialization that optimizing a build encourages, you're very likely to get some TWFers who are awesome against this specific challenge, but much weaker in other, probably more common situations. It's like designing a fighter to beat a monster which is immune to all physical damage. He's going to have to do all kinds of trickery to defeat that thing, and it'll leave him wide open in most other encounters.

[AtomicKitKat]

Off the top of my head, TWPounce from PHB2, Dual Strike(Complete Adventurer), Tempest's TWSpring Attack(Complete Adventurer), Claws of the Leopard(Complete Adventurer) Psionic Lion's Charge, Snow Tiger Berserker(Shining South or Unapproachable East), Shadow Pounce(ditto, Telflammar Shadowlord/Crinti Shadow Marauder), Double Hit(Miniatures Handbook) are more or less the only sorts of ways you will get more than one weapon into play on a move+attack turn. Some pseudo-pounce would be Wildrunner(Races of the Wild), which can pounce in the same turn that it frenzies.

[Swordguy]

Off the top of my head, TWPounce from PHB2, Dual Strike(Complete Adventurer), Tempest's TWSpring Attack(Complete Adventurer), Claws of the Leopard(Complete Adventurer) Psionic Lion's Charge, Snow Tiger Berserker(Shining South or Unapproachable East), Shadow Pounce(ditto, Telflammar Shadowlord/Crinti Shadow Marauder), Double Hit(Miniatures Handbook) are more or less the only sorts of ways you will get more than one weapon into play on a move+attack turn. Some pseudo-pounce would be Wildrunner(Races of the Wild), which can pounce in the same turn that it frenzies.

Jeez. None of which I have access to.

Let it be ground-bound, but fast (40-50' move rate). That gives people a chance...

[Jasdoif]

Wings of Flying would give you enough fly speed to charge 100 feet, and Psionic Lion's Charge will let you full attack for TWF. You'd only need 15 power points to use it each round in the 5-round limit, so four 5-point cognizance crystals would be fine for a psychic warrior 4 with the minimum 12 Wis.

All SRD.

For more esoteric options, 11,530gp would be enough to pay for a Psychic Chirurgery to give you knowledge of Psionic Lion's Charge, as long as you're capable of manifesting 2nd level powers (say, a three-level dip in psion).

[Piccamo]

How do you want us to calculate damage? Would it be Percent Chance to hit times average damage? Could you also please post its flat footed AC?

[AtomicKitKat]

How do you want us to calculate damage? Would it be Percent Chance to hit times average damage? Could you also please post its flat footed AC?

Judging from the Touch AC of 20, I would say it's probably 25 Flatfooted(Presume 35 is the fullest AC, with default base of 10, Touch being 20 means it has probably 10 AC from Dexterity+whatever else, perhaps 30 Dex from items+tome+wish?, so 35-10=25). 15 AC from Armour/Natural Armour/Shield. I think Deflection applies to both though so Flatfooted AC might be higher than 25.

[Piccamo]

Judging from the Touch AC of 20, I would say it's probably 25 Flatfooted(Presume 35 is the fullest AC, with default base of 10, Touch being 20 means it has probably 10 AC from Dexterity+whatever else, perhaps 30 Dex from items+tome+wish?, so 35-10=25). 15 AC from Armour/Natural Armour/Shield. I think Deflection applies to both though so Flatfooted AC might be higher than 25.

That is what I had deduced as well. I just wanted a hard and fast answer since the build I'm going with calculates from Flat Footed.

[Shisumo]

Wow, lots of replies already! Okay, more explanation (which will be edited into the original post as well):

Are custom items allowed?

I said what I meant and I meant what I said. If it's in a book, it's legal. If it's not, it's not.

...can I use more than two weapons? IE: Multiweapon Fighting?

I'd rather not. It makes it too hard to compare against the builds that don't.

Can you use an item to ready a forcecage when it flies by you thenTWF throwing axes through the bars?

Locking down the opponent is a valid tactic, and I'd have to say that throwing axes qualifies (though it isn't what I was thinking when I suggested this).

How do you want us to calculate damage? Would it be Percent Chance to hit times average damage? Could you also please post its flat footed AC?

That's exactly how I would calculate damage.

Flat-footed AC is the aforementioned 25.

I mean, I think maybe I see your idea, which is to set up a situation where it will be very hard for the TWFer to do his thing...if he can beat it, then he should be fine in situations where it's EASY to do his thing. But because of the specialization that optimizing a build encourages, you're very likely to get some TWFers who are awesome against this specific challenge, but much weaker in other, probably more common situations. It's like designing a fighter to beat a monster which is immune to all physical damage. He's going to have to do all kinds of trickery to defeat that thing, and it'll leave him wide open in most other encounters.

The reason for the distance requirement is simple: the inability to get off a full attack is one of the largest obstacles to TWF keeping up with, say, THF - as is frequently pointed out by Bears With Lasers and others, fighters can't keep up with dragons or teleporting balors because of movement rates; thus, distance issues. Same thing for why the opponent is flying.

[Piccamo]

Are custom items allowed?

I said what I meant and I meant what I said. If it's in a book, it's legal. If it's not, it's not.

Rules for making custom items are in a book (the DMG), so does that make them legal or not? Your answer is vague. The items themselves are not in the book, but the guidelines for their creation are.

[Fax Celestis]

I repeat for emphasis:

do multiple natural attacks count as TWF?