What's Wrong with the Complete Psion?

[JackMage666]

So, I see lots of bad talk about the Complete Psion. I don't get it, it doesn't seem too bad to me. I mean, yeah, it's not a great book, but it's got some good new classes and a few cool feats to add. It seems especially helpful if you want to make an all psionic party, because it gives you the Lurk, so you can now cover all the basic party ideas with Psionic classes.

But what's so wrong with it, it doesn't seem too bad? What makes it blasphemy again Psionics?

[Fax Celestis]

*It nerfed when it should have augged. (See: Astral Construct)
*The formatting is horrid.
*Most of the feats and powers are either too weak or should've just been flavor decisions (like those mindblade shaping feats. WTF.).
*The monsters and PrCs are unimaginative.
*The fluff on the new base classes is completely against everything else psionics is about (Divine Mind getting psionics from faith, wtf).

That pretty much sums it up for me.

[the_tick_rules]

i'm not a fan of psionics in general. every psion i've seen played is totally broken and way too powerful.

[Rarkasha]

That's... not very helpful considering the question and the entire topic of the thread.

Not to mention you're now opening the door to tons of people (of which I am tempted to be one of), who will carefully explain why psionics is not broken, and then derail the thread. I'm not saying you're trolling, though.

The complete psionic is a book a lot of people hate because it's not very useful, for the reasons Fax has listed above. On the other hand, I do like the Lurk. But that's about the only thing about the book I do like, which is not really worth it.

[AmberVael]

There are a few minor things in Complete Psionic which are worth your time, but otherwise...
I mean, a few of the new powers are pretty fun.
I think there was one feat I liked, but I can't remember it. :P
The Lurk is nifty.
But for the most part, it really isn't too good. I find it to be better than most people say it is, but that still doesn't say much.

[pestilenceawaits]

I agree there are a lot of problems with the complete psionic but I don't think it is completely useless. there are some cool prestige classes (illumine soul, ebon saint) and the Lurk is really cool even the other classes aren't that bad just the fluff is. it is one of those books that if you read through it and like what you see then it will be usefull but if it doesn't fit your game it is useless it doesn't fit in a general category like may of the other complete books.

[Ikkitosen]

I like the psionic race with 3 minds - the ardent is easily abuseable but ok - other than that many things are poorly thought out.

[storybookknight]

Maybe I can explain.

The problem that many people have with Complete Psionics is that it's inconsistent. Simply put, the "advantage" of having a completely psionic party isn't necessarily quite so obvious.

The main problem is that Psionics is essentially an add-on to the 3.5 rules. There are no psionic classes in the Player's Handbook, and while there are "psionic" monsters in the Monster Manual, none use psionic powers or psi-like abilities. Notably, check out the Illithid and the Aboleth. Similarly, there are no psionic items in the DMG.

What this means is that 3.5 psionics isn't really contiguous with everything else - but is that really a problem? What, functionally, is the difference between a Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric party and a Fighter, Psion, Rogue, Cleric party? There isn't that much of one!

What Complete Psionics tries to do, though, is it tries to open up the possibility for an all-psionic game. Hey, not a problem, right?

The problem isn't with the motive but rather the execution. "Planar Psionics" are added in, where people are drawing strength not from their inner mind but rather from some plane or another. You get Stygian Psionics, Celestial Psionics, and Who-Knows-What Psionics, none of which really match the flavor of the original game. Gameplay balance issues aside, the reason so many dislike it is because it takes away what they liked about Psionics to make it more similar to core D&D. You have psionic paladins, psionic clerics, and psionic rogues, but if you want a cleric, you can play one, rather than the weird psionic variant that doesn't really make much sense in terms of flavor.

There are a number of additional flaws, but the core design aesthetic of the book is, IMHO, responsible for most of them - trying to make it more like normal D&D was really not the best of plans.

[Annarrkkii]

Kudos, props, and... other internet congratulations to StorybookKnight. That's my primary problem with the Complete Psionics—it's trying to make parallels were there aren't any.

Psionics should be distinctly different from Arcane and Divine magic—a category of it's own. No one has tried to make Arcane casters who derived their power from gods, or Divine caster's who cast without any sort of outsider/deity/causal support. As such, it makes no sense to try and make Psionics a part of the other sections.

Lurk is an interesting idea, but I do not approve of its execution. I think it would better be covered by a PrC for Soulknife, or perhaps for Psionic Warrior or the Spelltheif from CAdv. I think Complete Scoundrel actually addressed that, in a slight way, though I can't recall how, exactly. I think a feat that allows powerpoint drain...

Anyway, I also find a large number of the feats to be useless or overly specific and silly. Illithid Heritage feats only further confuse the whole mess that supplements have made of Illithid culture. Soulbow is just a weird prestige class, and the rest, in my opinion, don't really deserve specific references. Of course, Psionic PrCs in general (save the Thrallherd) are sometimes pretty strange. Some of the powers are nifty.

I like psionics a great deal. I liked the XPH rather a lot. I was exceedingly disappointed by the Complete Psionics book—it just jumbles the system further. I want a better supplement! Hmph.

Above all, while the above faults are severe, they might be bareable were it not for the pricetag. I am NOT parting with 20 SoBes' worth for a few nifty powers and some interesting ideas.

[Ramza00]

Complete Psionic isn't bad, it is just ungood. The feats, prcs and flavor are bad flavor wise or mechanically lacking. Combine with some flavor changes to some specific things (looking at mind flayers half-illithid , now we have to use time travel from the future to be internally consistent, or divine psionics) these things irks people, plus astral construct getting nerf...

Finally XPH is one of the best supplements in design, flavor, and balance ever published by WOTC in 3.5. To have its "sequel" be so not good followed by what you used to treasure you have star wars prequel vs OT syndrome.

[Ramza00]

i'm not a fan of psionics in general. every psion i've seen played is totally broken and way too powerful.

Myth: The XPH is overpowered
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253

Additionally psionics is way more balanced to the rest of D&D than the wizard/sorcerer is. I will leave other posters to actually argue that if you want to hijack this thread.

[AmberVael]

Above all, while the above faults are severe, they might be bareable were it not for the pricetag. I am NOT parting with 20 SoBes' worth for a few nifty powers and some interesting ideas.

I'm so in agreement with that sentiment.
And yeah, Storybookknight has hit it on the head, I think. I couldn't really place it, but that sounds about right. Plus some of the stuff in it is just not all that great anyways.
However, I highly believe in editing the fluff and keeping mechanics for a lot of DnD things. I think it could be done with a great deal of Complete Psionics.
Stygian powers? Crunch-wise they are just powers that deal in negative energy. Just describe it as "siphoning energy" from someone and avoid the planar connection.
Celestial/Fiendish powers? Psionics are a power of the mind- your personal beliefs have a great deal to do with how you think, right? Why shouldn't you be able to "manifest your inner self" or something less cheesy? Again, no planar connection.
The classes are obviously harder to deal with, but I think it could be done.

The problem, however, is that we shouldn't have to do this much work to make it work. It can be done, but should we have to do it? Its work that we are paying for, right? Yeah. So that is the problem.

[Ramza00]

To the original poster the story is Complete Psionic was canceled a month prior to is expected release. Even though it was canceled unfinished copies of this work hit the internet and few hard copies that could be located at second hand stores. Because it is unfinsh a DM is going to have fill in the blanks and edit some stuff out (it would have been edited out anyway but the project was canceled prior to completion)

(A common joke about CPsi )

[Assassinfox]

No one has tried to make Arcane casters who derived their power from gods

Some PrCs and feats have tried, but not very well.

or Divine caster's who cast without any sort of outsider/deity/causal support.

Archivist.

[Fax Celestis]

Some PrCs and feats have tried, but not very well.



Archivist.

Or Ur-Priest.

[Assassinfox]

Or Ur-Priest.

That's still getting power from a deity, though. Just not with permission.

[ravenkith]

The biggest problem with complete psionic?

It just doesn't stack up when compared to books like complete arcane and complete divine. Arguably it's the closest to complete scoundrel, but even that book managed to bring in some new & interesting things, what with the luck feats & the tricks.

[okpokalypse]

In terms of Base Classes, I've played all 3 and they are rather balanced and well laid. The Divine Mind is actually really good for groups at high levels. Unfortunately, the flavor of them just stinks. They've gone way too far to have "Divine Psionics" and it just lacks a lot.

There's actually a 4th Base Class at the end of the book (after the Racial Classes) - the Erudite. It's the Wizard version of the Psion (kinda-sorta). They can learn as many Powers as they come in contact with, and automatically gain 2 per level as well. They however are limited in the amount of unique powers they may manifest per day. They gain the same PSPs as a normal Psion, and they may learn Powers from other class lists as well - provided the Power learned is one level lower than current max. Not bad really.

For PrCs, few are worthwhile. Anarchic Initiate is great for Wilders. Soulbow is a nice flavor for Soulknives. Zerth Cenobite is fun flavor for Psionic Race Monks. That's about it. There aren't nearly enough full Manifestor progression PrCs - which is a shame.

As far as Feats go, yeah, most are not very useful. The few General ones I find nice are the Energy Feats and the Mantle Feats. The Xeph Celerity racial feat is nice as well. And the MetaPower feat is a must-have - often multiple times.

The real strength of the Book though comes from the new Powers within. There's a lot of very good (some quite overpowered) powers in there. Some are:

Anicipatory Strike (Accellerate your turn - Immediate)
Claws of Darkness (Similar to Claws of the Beast - Extendable to 10' Reach)
Damp Power (Minimize Power/Spell Used against you - Immediate)
Stygian Bolt (Augmented, Maximized, Empowered bestows 12 Negative Levels)

[Bears With Lasers]

i'm not a fan of psionics in general. every psion i've seen played is totally broken and way too powerful.

Are you kidding me? That's ridiculous. Psionics is like arcane magic only less good at anything except for blasting.

It only becomes "broken" if you ignore the rules (were these psions spending more PP on a power than their Manifester Level? Hmm...)

[Fizban]

I liked the Erudite, and maybe 2 feats. The rest of it sucked, for reasons detailed by Fax and storybookknight. I like the Eruidte because it's the only spontenous caster that can learn more than his base allotment of spells. The only downside is that I'd have to convert my favority arcane spells into powers, but that's not hard. The feats I liked were the kind of must-have feats that everyone would take.

I disliked the deity/planar psionics enough to mention it personally: the whole point of psionics is that is comes from your own personal brain. Anything else should be relegated to a PrC, or forgotten because it violates the point.

[Ranis]

The problem with CPsi is the fact that it's psionics, and they are always bad.

Period.

[Jack Mann]

Care to explain that? I mean, I could say that the problem with Complete Adventurer is that it has stuff for rogues, and rogues always suck. But unless I backed that up somehow, people wouldn't take me seriously. And people won't likely be taking your post very seriously either.

[Assassinfox]

The problem with CPsi is the fact that it's psionics, and they are always bad.

Period.

Kinda ironic coming from someone with a mindflayer for an avatar.

[broderickdruce]

The problem with CPsi is the fact that it's psionics, and they are always bad.

Period.

I don't know why people say this, I wish they would at least explain, and if this opinion is based on 3.0 psionics...*shudder*

I agree that psionics is more balanced than wizards and definitely more so than druids and clerics. For example it took 2 level 6 psions (Kineticist and Psycoportive) to take out a CR 8 Dragon and it took most or our PP and HP.

On topic: I mainly like it for a prestige class or two. the powers are definitely under powered. One example i can think of is Energy Arc (or something like that) which is a few levels higher than energy missles but can't do as much.

[Aquillion]

One of the big things: IIRC, there are no psionic PRCs with full power progression. None. That's a pretty major game-balance improvement when compared to arcane and divine casters, who have PRCs that give them massive new abilities completely for free out of the wazoo.

[Druid]

No, one of them does. the anarchic initiat I think.

[JackMage666]

Doesn't the Cerebremage as well? Yeah, you have ot sacrifice a few levels for some wizard levels, but that's not so bad, is it?

[CockroachTeaParty]

I agree with everyone so far that Complete Psi was lackluster. However, I still use it quite a bit, in conjunction with the various Mind's Eye stuff from the WotC site, and I've even hungrily devoured third party psionic rules. I love psionics, I do I do.

Complete Psi irks me in many ways, but it is passable if you treat its wounds. I know that we shouldn't have to do this, for we payed for the blasted thing, but here's what I do anyway...

-Ardents and Lurks are fine. Flavor-wise, I change Divine Minds into crusading Ardents with a more martial bent, and I give them a fighter's BAB progression.

-I ignore the Astral Construct nerf, as well as the Ectopic Adept PrC (the Constructor from the Mind's Eye is much better).

-The previously mentioned fluff alterations to Stygian and alignment-based powers are similar enough to how I explain them.

-The 'Touch of Health' power from the Life mantle I change, so that it heals 3 hp per PP spent, especially if it's a game void of divine magic.

If you do this, and ignore the more awful feats (Ectopic forms...), the book can add a lot of depth to a psionic-themed game. However, if you use Complete Psionic as an afterthought or simple add-on to a normal game of D&D, you'll probably just end up looking silly.

Why couldn't it have been more like Complete Arcane or Warrior? Just a shatload of PrC's and new powers... For Pete's sake, I haven't even read all the PrC's in Complete Warrior yet! I get tired! What the heck does Purple Dragon Knight do?

Well, if you crave psionics like a black tar heroin addict, you've probably already purchased Complete Psi, like me, and you cry crystal tears into your ectoplasmic pillow every night, because you are a thrall to the big, squishy, spooky Elder Brain that is WotC... If you are free, child, and breath the clean air of the surface world, then cherish your freedom, and stay away from the darkness....

[Merlin the Tuna]

Bam.

These words included because the board said I needed more.

[Marius]

I have to agree with Fax but I did liked the Soulbow, it's a great pcr for the underpowered Soulknife.