Convince me to Allow Psionics

[Olethros]

Im a DM, no really its true.

I tend to run my games on home-brew worlds, largly so I don't have players insisting that they be allowed to do something because it is available in this splat-book, Novel, suppliment, etc.

One thing that has been a constent in my games is the never-waivering axiom "Psionics Do Not Exist" at any point if it looks like psionics exist, you were wrong, that was a spell-like, extraordinary, crazy monster ability and you cant do it, not even with polymorph.

I have my reasons for this, mostly stemming from a horable experience with a psionic kobold from way back in 2nd ed, and the fact that I don't let playeres use any book I don't own or have continious access too. Also, I have yet to be shown a psionic "concept" that isn't already covered by established core classes.

So for all you Psions out there, convince me Im wrong. As a player, convince me to introduce psionics to my world, so they are available as a playable class. What will it add to the gaming experience of non-psions, how well does it mesh with other classes, how often will I be forced to "figure out" how these two powers work against/with each other, what does it add that is unique and not reproducable by another class?

Please, those are ant-psionics, let the pro-psions have the floor for most of this thread, I have all the sceptisism and bad blood covered.

[Yuki Akuma]

Psionics in 3.5 aren't nearly as broken as they were in second edition. It isn't an entirely new rule set, and meshes well with the magic system. Magic and psionics even overlap by default, so that you can use Dispel Magic to get rid of Animal Affinity, and a Null Psionics Zone will supress a Mage Armour.

Also... it's in the SRD, so you don't need any more books.

[ocato]

In my experience with psionics, if it isn't a psionic campaign with psionic enemies and psionic situations, the Psion lollerskates over everything's face without any kind of challenge.

Lollerskates.

[Yuki Akuma]

In my experience with psionics, if it isn't a psionic campaign with psionic enemies and psionic situations, the Psion lollerskates over everything's face without any kind of challenge.

Lollerskates.

...Why? Psionics isn't very different to magic. If you can handle a mage, you can handle a psionicist.

[Fax Celestis]

Further, psionic powers are weaker than spells in that they don't automatically augment. Sure, you can spend power points to upgrade your powers, but there's a finite limit: your manifester level.

I would suggest looking at the Psionics Myths Thread.

[kamikasei]

In my experience with psionics, if it isn't a psionic campaign with psionic enemies and psionic situations, the Psion lollerskates over everything's face without any kind of challenge.

Did your experience include psionics-magic transparency, or was a lone psion in the party fighting a bunch of monsters with no defenses against him, while he benefited from all the standard magic-defense items and options of the game?

Did the psion have to measure out his power use over the recommended average four encounters a day? Did he abide by the rule that no single power may be manifested with more points than you have manifester levels?

OP: there are lots of arguments to be made as to why psionics shouldn't be banned, but it would be helpful if you indicated just how "new" or "unique" they have to be to be accepted. Would you allow warlocks? Hexblades? Incarnum? Tome of Battle?

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Seriously. Creatures with psionic resistances are necessary to counter psionic players, and that's extra effort on the DM's end. Plus, all psionics have stupid names and smell like poop and I hate them.

Really, psionics can be done well. But the DM needs to reset his ENTIRE CAMPAIGN the moment a player decides to become one.

[Tormsskull]

Coming from an anti-psionic perspective (for various reasons) you don't need to be convinced to use psionics. You obviously want to, so just do it.

If there are specific things you are worried about, list them and then explain why you think they might cause a concern. Then posters can constructively tell you why you may be right or wrong and how to fix it if need be.

[Yuki Akuma]

Seriously. Creatures with psionic resistances are necessary to counter psionic players, and that's extra effort on the DM's end. Plus, all psionics have stupid names and smell like poop and I hate them.

Really, psionics can be done well. But the DM needs to reset his ENTIRE CAMPAIGN the moment a player decides to become one.

Spell Resistance works against psionics. Power Resistance works against magic. There is no problem here.

[Piccamo]

Essentially in 3.5 Psionics are an alternate magic system. This one works well with Arcane and Divine magic, emulating many of the same abilities. They are more spontaneous in casting than sorcerers, but overall their powers are weaker than the spells.

I don't play a Psion, but I have DMed for them and am playing a campaign alongside one right now. The Psionics will add new dangers for your players in that they won't be able to prepare for the enemy as well; fortunately as a DM you can prepare for the Psion by using varied monsters against them (really anything good against a traditional caster is good against a psion).

The Psion will add some unique abilities to nonpsions in varied ways to gain buffs and it "costs" less for the Psion to help out the party with a higher level power than it would a higher level spell; this is because psions use basically a magic point system and thus if they need multiple high level powers in a day they can use them, but they will not be able to use many other powers.

You won't really be forced to "figure out" these powers very often because they work almost exactly the same as spells. If you play with Transparency (a term that is described in the SRD) then Spell Resistance works the same for both Vancian and psionic magic.

Psionics do not do anything in particular that another class cannot do, which really goes a long way in helping balance them. Its using a different source than traditional magic systems to fuel that power. Psionics aren't overpowered in 3.5e.

[Logos7]

The Lack of Auto Augmentation is more than Made up with the DC shifting that occurs ( Ie being able to save up your PP for more high level casts)

Will it ruin/break your game, Not any worse than a Wizard. But like any system if anyone in anyclass tries to break something it will break, and that's proably a good thing, otherwise DnD would be this invincable jugernaut of rules and it would be even harder to stop.

That said you obviously don't like/want psionics so why bother looking for excuses?

Logos

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Oh, SR and PR do the same thing? Nevermind then. I always ran it wrong.

But their names still suck.

[Piccamo]

The Lack of Auto Augmentation is more than Made up with the DC shifting that occurs ( Ie being able to save up your PP for more high level casts)

Will it ruin/break your game, Not any worse than a Wizard. But like any system if anyone in anyclass tries to break something it will break, and that's proably a good thing, otherwise DnD would be this invincable jugernaut of rules and it would be even harder to stop.

That said you obviously don't like/want psionics so why bother looking for excuses?

Logos

You won't be able to get off that many high level casts that do much. You will run out of PP long before you run out of encounters.

[PinkysBrain]

The psion can nova more effectively that Vancian casters, so if you only have 1 encounter a day they might be a bit stronger ... it's not a huge difference though.

Also the Psychic Warrior is significantly better than the fighter ... now to most of us that isn't a problem, we call that balanced. Some people call it power creep though, if you are one of those people who are wrong (ie. those people who think martial base classes should be balanced against the fighter) then psionics is probably not for you.

[Enzario]

Ah, 2nd ed psionics... so primitive...

The 3.5 version of psionics does not use the "psionic combat" rules, i.e. "You're now unconcious, and there was hardly anything you could do to stop me. Coup de grace, anyone?". In 3.5, psionics are simply another form of magic that may or may not overlap partially or completely with magic (DM's choice, but if you have a campaign with very few psionic monsters/challenges, I would go with full overlap for balance reasons). Think of a psion as a sorcerer that uses a point-based magic system, is more dependant on feats than a sorcerer (feats are used to expand power [think: "spell"] selection, obtain a psicrystal [think: "familiar"] and other goodies, like metapsionics and such) and has a slightly more limited selection of powers/spells than a sorcerer.

Also, many players like the idea of a person that generates amazing powers through force of mind rather than through a science that allows them to harness an existing power. People like being in control.

:edit:
Gah, so many people getting ahead of me!

@ PinkysBrain
Yes, the psychic warrior is in general better than the fighter, but look at its BAB progression. A fighter is going to be able to hit something a lot more than a psychic warrior.

[jlousivy]

Psionic characters have a set number of powers. This helps prevent a 'spell/psionic caster' from having a counter to everything.

Basicly it's a 'mana' styled sorcerer. He can use weaker versions of his spell to preserve his mana pool. but he can't just unload everything into a single spell so the 'caster level' is still in place.

If you look at the various powers, many of them have spell equivalents, except the spells are generally better.

[kamikasei]

Seriously. Creatures with psionic resistances are necessary to counter psionic players, and that's extra effort on the DM's end. Plus, all psionics have stupid names and smell like poop and I hate them.

Really, psionics can be done well. But the DM needs to reset his ENTIRE CAMPAIGN the moment a player decides to become one.

Your first statement is false. Your other statements are... really not what the OP was asking about.

To the OP: check out the SRD for rules on psionics and threads like this (to counter specific concerns you may have) and this (to answer your general questions). If you have a player who wants to use psionics, he can presumably work it out himself, and you can use those resources to keep him honest.

Note also these articles on the Wizards site: here, here, here and here, and this column all about psionics.

In general, your misgivings sound unfounded. From what I hear psionics were unbalanced in 2nd edition, but that's not really relevant to 3.5. Claims that psions can tear through monsters and nothing can touch them are based on a variant rule, poorly handled. None of this can convince you that you ought to add psionics to a campaign, but you shouldn't be reluctant to allow a player to use them. It won't break your game and you won't have to alter the whole campaign to accomodate it. Throwing in a fair share of psionically-relevant loot, and the odd psionic monster, is the most you'll need to do.

[NullAshton]

Psionic characters have a set number of powers. This helps prevent a 'spell/psionic caster' from having a counter to everything.

Basicly it's a 'mana' styled sorcerer. He can use weaker versions of his spell to preserve his mana pool. but he can't just unload everything into a single spell so the 'caster level' is still in place.

If you look at the various powers, many of them have spell equivalents, except the spells are generally better.

There is some instances where the powers are better. For one, Psions have limited healing. In addition, Temporal Acceleration is a target for psionic contingency, thus you can have it go off whenever for 6 free rounds.

[Ramza00]

Oh, SR and PR do the same thing? Nevermind then. I always ran it wrong.

But their names still suck.

Under the XPH it gives two options. The highly recommend option is make them same thing, psionics affect magic the same way magic affect psionics.

The other option is make them different, it recommends against this for its so much more work for the DM (and even after the work is done it just doesn't work).

[Olethros]

Coming from an anti-psionic perspective (for various reasons) you don't need to be convinced to use psionics. You obviously want to, so just do it.

Actually, I don't want to use psionics in my game world, but my reasons are potentially biased and based on erronious experiences/information. In the intrest of fairness to my players I am opening myself up to the possibility of having my mind changed. By discussing it here I don't reviel the process to my players, I try to maintaine the mystery wherever possible.

To respnd to the request for more info. My bad experience revolves around what seemed to be the concept of, if your not a psion, you have no defences against psions (particularly a Kobald psion nearly killing a paladin with some "brain-freezing" power) this was 2nd ed. where a character with an AC of 0 had a mental AC of 10 and no way to augment it, and I am lead to believe that this has been fixed, but I would like some examples.

As for how different would it have to be. The warlock, hexblade, other "add-on" base classes mentioned, use the same rules-set/magical concepts as the core classes. The warlock is an Arcane caster, doing arcane caster things, its a slightly different flavor, exists is a slightly different party role, but doesn't require an additional metaphysical system to impliment, so I don't mind the overlap (same way I don't mind sorcere and wizard overlap). Im a completionist, so for psions to be added to a game world, I would have to atleast rough out how they fit into society, peoples reactions to them, there organization, etc. To justify that, I would need to believe that they offer something that can't be provided within the framework of the existing metaphysics.

[Ramza00]

Compare the list of 9th lvl spells with 9th lvl powers. Do the same for 8th lvl and then 5th lvl, 3rd, and 1st.

Powers are weaker than spells there are a few exceptions to this, but the time there are 10 times as many times arcane is super oh my god better than psionics.

[Ramza00]

Actually, I don't want to use psionics in my game world, but my reasons are potentially biased and based on erronious experiences/information. In the intrest of fairness to my players I am opening myself up to the possibility of having my mind changed. By discussing it here I don't reviel the process to my players, I try to maintaine the mystery wherever possible.

To respnd to the request for more info. My bad experience revolves around what seemed to be the concept of, if your not a psion, you have no defences against psions (particularly a Kobald psion nearly killing a paladin with some "brain-freezing" power) this was 2nd ed. where a character with an AC of 0 had a mental AC of 10 and no way to augment it, and I am lead to believe that this has been fixed, but I would like some examples.

As for how different would it have to be. The warlock, hexblade, other "add-on" base classes mentioned, use the same rules-set/magical concepts as the core classes. The warlock is an Arcane caster, doing arcane caster things, its a slightly different flavor, exists is a slightly different party role, but doesn't require an additional metaphysical system to impliment, so I don't mind the overlap (same way I don't mind sorcere and wizard overlap). Im a completionist, so for psions to be added to a game world, I would have to atleast rough out how they fit into society, peoples reactions to them, there organization, etc. To justify that, I would need to believe that they offer something that can't be provided within the framework of the existing metaphysics.

Will in the main option Psionics is the same as Arcane. Want to charm some one use psionic charm. SR and Will same as normal, same thing with hold person.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Well, #1. 3.5 psionics are considered to be the first 'balanced' psionic system. In fact, its considered to be far more balanced than 3.5 magic.

I'm just going to go at this one step at a time...

-=-=-=-=-=-

Concept

Clerics, they just pray for powers. They don't neccessarily have a clue how the actual abilities work, but their faith gives them strength to bend the universe.

Druids, maybe a bit better, they feel the life force of the world and alter its flow, send it here or there or remove it from another.

Sorcerers and Wizards I honestly don't understand the concept of that well. It wholey depends on the setting.

Psionics now... it is the power of self. It is a heightened sense of awareness to the point you can see and comprehend things that those of lesser mentalities cannot. This insight and intuition allows them to do their wonders.

A telepath, his mind picks up and broadcasts his thoughts so strongly that they can override those of the actual being. Or he might just understand so in depth his own psyche that he can adjust how own mind with his mind.
A psychometabolist is the same way, but with his body in general. He can control blood flow, super-speed up his metabolism to heal at a phenomenal rate, or even adjust his very DNA itself to metamorph.

A kineticist, he can use psionic energy to feel the very movement of air molecules themselves and exert this power to shake them up so hard they explode outwards. Or perhaps he uses it to lift you up or to alter the physical laws. He in effect has an extra limb that cannot be seen or detected, but capable of crude raw power or incredible finesse.

A psychoporter, he sees the world differently. He understands time and space and his position in it, allowing him to cross boundaries like another climbs a fence. He KNOWS the rules that govern his position in the universe.

Psions do all this consciously, wilders subconsciously, and psychic warriors instinctively. But what it boils down to is this heightened state of wareness, this fundamental understanding allows them to do incredible things through sheer force of will.


Many somehow believe that all this is just sci-fi. For some reason a medeival world cannot have truely enlightened folks. Its the dark age where only ignorance and superstition can prevail. I spit upon this theory.

Incredibly deep philosophy and great advances have happened in our own non-supernatural world far before modern times. It is only now that we have so much accumulated in all aspects that we can retain all we've learned.


The power over one's self. A will and strength of personality that can change the world. is this not the definition of a hero?

This concept is in no way limited to a setting, and those that feel it cannot exist in fantasy haven't opened their minds and imaginations properly to deserve to play the class.

[headwarpage]

That was very... romantic, VT.

I've never played in a game in which psionics featured prominently, but I kind of like the mechanics. The only reason I can see not to include psionics is if you find the fluff totally unappealing.

[kamikasei]

To respnd to the request for more info. My bad experience revolves around what seemed to be the concept of, if your not a psion, you have no defences against psions (particularly a Kobald psion nearly killing a paladin with some "brain-freezing" power) this was 2nd ed. where a character with an AC of 0 had a mental AC of 10 and no way to augment it, and I am lead to believe that this has been fixed, but I would like some examples.

Wow, that sounds sucky. Well, as people have said, the default way to handle psionics is to make it subject to magical countermeasures as arcane or divine magic is: your kobold would have to overcome SR, could be dispelled, etc. I think the specific thing you describe was what they call "psionic combat" and, to my knowledge, it no longer exists.

As for how different would it have to be. The warlock, hexblade, other "add-on" base classes mentioned, use the same rules-set/magical concepts as the core classes. The warlock is an Arcane caster, doing arcane caster things, its a slightly different flavor, exists is a slightly different party role, but doesn't require an additional metaphysical system to impliment, so I don't mind the overlap (same way I don't mind sorcere and wizard overlap). Im a completionist, so for psions to be added to a game world, I would have to atleast rough out how they fit into society, peoples reactions to them, there organization, etc. To justify that, I would need to believe that they offer something that can't be provided within the framework of the existing metaphysics.

Well, Vorpal Tribble goes into this. It depends a little on how fleshed-out the role of arcane or divine casters already is. Psions could be treated as just another sort of mage, or they could have their own tradition and role, but to be fair you probably ought to think about how arcane and divine magic "work" in the world, too - the metaphysics behind them. In specifics, note that psions can't be counterspelled, and use no material components, which lends a different flavor to their "magic"; past that, it would also depend on how common they are in the game world. The obvious, least-effort way to explain psionics is to say that they, wizards, and clerics all manipulate the same basic thing (the stuff the world is made of), with clerics and druids accessing powerful forces like gods and nature itself to do it for them, wizards utilizing little hooks and mechanisms in the world that they learn, and psionicists doing it through direct application of force of will.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Uniqueness

There are many things you can do with psionics that you cannot do with magic. Many things overlap or are paralleled, but they are different.

For one, psionics tend to be far more flexible than most magics. Instead of having spell slots or spells known for the day, you have a set ammount of powers you know. They can be manifested any number of times per day, no matter their level, limited to your power points.

You do not have quite as many actual powers known as mages however, which is one balancing factor.

Another is that powers do not automatically scale. A 5th level wizard casting fireball can do 5d6 points of damage or whatever. A psion manifesting a similiar power will only do 1d6 points of damage at 5th level. To ramp it up to do 5d6, he'll have to spend additional power points, called augmenting. Its sort of like applying a metamagic feat to it to make the 1st level spell a 5th level one.

However, with only a view exceptions, this power does does not become a 5th level power. The DC does not increase. To do this requires even more psionic power points.

-=-=-=-=-

Then there is Psionic Focus. Its a state of mind only reachable by psionicists or those that have taken the Wild Talent feat. Basically you have your mind in a heightened state, ready to be directed.

While you are focused your mind and body are in a state of calm readiness.

To use most psionic feats you have to be 'focused'. The use of one of these feats generally requires you to expend this focus. Such as a karate master takes a deep breath and focuses all his energy into a single brutal blow that allows him to crack a stack of bricks as tall as he. To regain that focus he must go through his mental exercises once again.

This can allow for everything from a phenomenal jump, to having such poison you can run along the edge of a wall, putting your foot in just the right place to propell yourself, sensing the minute differences of facial expression to sense their thoughts, to focusing your mind to prolong or expand or alter your psionic energies and powers.

Nothing like this in magic.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Autohypnosis is also a fun difference, a new skill that lets you attempt to ignore fear and pain, keep yourself from dying, memorize, and the like. Its not quite so supernatural but more alike to the disciplines of the monks of the east.


Also, most psionic powers don't have magical counterparts and wouldn't really fit into the magic concept or practice. Seriously, I've tried to adjust psionic creatures into magical ones for contests and the lik and there are just places where the two systems don't even touch upon.


Personally though the theme itself was enough to win me over. Its so much more satisfying for power to come from yourself than to be borrowed from the gods and nature or merely borrowed from the universe such as with the mages.

The psionicists relies on him/herself.

[Morgan_Scott82]

Well since he said he was taking things one step at a time I assume Vorpal is typing up another post as I speak, but I'd like to try to slip my thoughts in here as well. 3.5 Psionics is a significantly better system than any previous editions treatment of psionics. In 2nd ed psionics were godly and if you weren't a psion you were royally screwed, however this is not the case in 3.5. Gone is the concept of a separate mental AC, if the power requires an attack it is a regular attack roll against the targets regular AC (or Touch AC as appropriate just like with spells). In 3.0 there were psionic attack modes, and psionic defense modes, think of this like rock, paper, sissors, where characters used defense modes to counter attack modes, and if you didn't have any defenses you were again screwed. 3.5 did away with this as well, now all psionics are managed through the powers system. Also in 3.0 each discipline of psionics (Think: School of Magic) used a different ability score to determine the Save DC and other ability score variable effects. In 3.5 this is also no longer the case, each class has a primary manifesting statistic (Int for psions, Cha for wilders, and Wis for psychic warriors). So those are the primary way 3.5 psioinics differs from previous editions. Now lets consider how psionics function in 3.5.

In 3.5 each psionic character has a limited number of powers known based on their class level (just like a sorcerer), and a pool of power points, which they expend to use thier powers. Really, they differ from vancian casters in only one important way: that they use points instead of slots. Each power has an effect, as a rule this effect does not scale with Manifester level (A psionic equivilent to caster level) so rather than having Fireball as a third level spell which does 1d6 damage per caster level, you get Energy burst, as a third level power which deals 5d6 damage. As you can see when they ability to cast fireball and energy burst are first gained at Caster/Manifester level 5 They would do the same damage, however if these same two characters were to gain a few levels for the same investment of a 3rd level spell slot the caster is doing 7d6, while for the same investment of power points the psion is only doing 5d6. This seeming imbalance is rectified in the ability of the Psionic character to "Augment" thier powers by spending more power points, up to a limit of thier manifester level (or manifester level plus a couple with the right feats or class abilities.) Continuing to look at energy burst we see that it has a base power point cost of 5 power points, this means that when it is first gained it cannot be augmented (since it can first be gained at manifester level 5 and you are prohibited from spending more power points than you manifester level on a single power) however as he gains levels he can invest more power points in order for the spell to do more damage. So as you can hopefully see a 10th level wizard uses a third level spell slot to cast Fireball and does 10d6, meanwhile a 10th level psion would have to spend 10 powerpoints for that same 10d6 Energy Burst, and for that same 10 power points the psion could have manifested a 5th level psion power.

[Artanis]

Im a completionist, so for psions to be added to a game world, I would have to atleast rough out how they fit into society, peoples reactions to them, there organization, etc. To justify that, I would need to believe that they offer something that can't be provided within the framework of the existing metaphysics.

You could always take Psionics-Magic transparency one step further and just have the setting treat Psionics like another sort of magic.

For an analogy, Sam Hornish and Jeff Gordon are both race car drivers first and foremost, with the fact that they drive totally different cars being largely an afterthought. So in that vein, you can have a Psion and a Wizard be more or less the same thing socially (i.e. "guy who sets you on fire by making funny motions"), despite the fact that there's a lot of differences in what they do.

That way, it would take almost no work at all to "fit Psionics into the setting".

[ravenkith]

Psions just aren't that bad come 3.5.

Especially when you take into account PRCs.

What makes the psion different from the sorceror or the wizard is that he is, in fact, a hybrid of the two.

He gets the bonus feats of a wizard, along with the ability to specialize in a given field of his chosen brand of whacky, and cast as many times a day in a wizard like manner (when boiled down), but has the limitations to powers known and casting style of a sorceror (that is to say, spontaneous).

Wierdly, he also has the capability of wearing armor, if not the proficiency in it, like a cleric.

Psionics thmselves are just another kind of magic, like arcane or divine, in terms of the way they affect the campaign.

Just my 2 cents.

In 2nd ed, psioniics broke the game. But this is 3.5, and psinics aren't the way they were.

Google "d20 online srd" and read up on psionics. It's actually a fairly simple system.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

That was very... romantic, VT.

Hey, what can I say?

Well since he said he was taking things one step at a time I assume Vorpal is typing up another post as I speak, but I'd like to try to slip my thoughts in here as well.

Yeah, you did a far more thorough job of explaining the unique mechanics than I