Convince me to Allow Psionics

[Fax Celestis]

And Luke Skywalker does the voice of the joker!

That's so awesome.

[Assassinfox]

If we don't use psionics, the Sorcerer Kings have already won.

[Draz74]

Did it ever make sense to you, just once, why a Wizard (Level 15 or so) can't give up two 4th-level spells to memorize an extra 5th-level spell?

Me neither.

This is one of the reasons psionics appeals to me.

Also the way that Psionic Feats let non-casters do supernatural-ish things without it making no sense. (They don't need powers or PP, they just have nice balanced rules to let them do amazing things like run on walls or shatter an object.) It's exactly like the Monk was supposed to be ... except, wait, it's not as confined to Asian-flavor either.

[okpokalypse]

The level lost is supposed to be akin to the level lost in resurrection. Your character level is simply decremented by one, and you cannot restore it. Think of psychic chiurgery as greater restoration, except you can also teach people new powers with it (albeit at a nasty cost).

Technically, a Thought Bottle (Complete Arcane) would reverse it.

Of course, it's all moot unless one of his players is a Telepath.

True, but I've found that Telepath and Shaper are by far the two most common Disciplines taken. Since Greater Metamorphosis got nerfed, no one in their right mind takes Egoist (they just Expand Knowledge to get Fission), and there's enough Non-Kineticist DD stuff to make it rather repetitive - unless you're in it for the Telekinesis. Seer is nice, but tends to slow down the game a lot when their exclusive powers are used - and DM's tend to get annoyed with them quickly (often citing them as "Plot Reveal Devices"). Nomads are also nice, but tend to be more 1-dimensional in their exclusive powers.

[Golthur]

That's so awesome.

It *IS* awesome, and gave me new respect for Mark Hamil's acting abilities.

[headwarpage]

Actually, having only a few classes available can severely limit roleplaying, depending on which classes they are. If players are constantly forced to choose between roleplaying their characters and being effective at what they do, both the roleplaying and the game will suffer for it.

Yes and no. If you don't have classes capable of covering all the major party roles, that's obviously going to be an issue. Beyond that, less so. You can make a few classes suit a wide variety of characters, the problem is that WotC has published so many splatbooks. So there's no reason to make your swashbuckling character a fighter/rogue (or whatever) instead of a Swashbuckler. Trying to play a swashbuckling fighter/rogue when there's a perfectly good Swashbuckler class right there is likely to be frustrating and pointless. But if the Swashbuckler had never been published, playing a swashbuckling fighter/rogue would probably be a fun and rewarding experience.

This is entirely off-topic, though, so I'm going to let it drop now.

[okpokalypse]

Did it ever make sense to you, just once, why a Wizard (Level 15 or so) can't give up two 4th-level spells to memorize an extra 5th-level spell?

Me neither.

This is one of the reasons psionics appeals to me.

One interesting thing regarding PSPs as well:

A Psion gets 343 PSP at L20. A Psion @L20 w/ 40 Int gets +150 PSP.

A Wizard, if you were to convert his Spells at each Level into PSP Equivalents, gets 344 PSP*. A Wizard's Bonus Spells from 40 Int, converted would be +220 PSP.

If you were so inclined, you could easily assign a pool point value for each level based on the amount of converted PSPs the caster has (based on spell allotment) and allow them to free-form memorize spells of whatever levels they want so long as they do not exceed the maximum. I'm actually pretty sure this is a Variant somewhere as well. Unearthed Arcana maybe...

* Specialists get the Equivalent of 430, and if you were a Focused Specialist, that would be the equivalent of 516.

Psion's have the ability to augment their powers, but they have significantly less staying power due to that when all is said and done. Especially when one considers that a Wizard is spending the equivalent of 5 PSP for a 10d6 Lightning Bolt, and a Psion would have to spend 10 PSP for a 10d6 Lightning Bolt.

[Ramza00]

Okay comparing a 10th lvl psion vs a 10th lvl sorcerer with damage spells.
18 Int+2 lvl+4 item=24 Int for Psion
18 Cha+2 lvl+4 item=24 Cha for Sorcerer

Note I am doing psion vs sorcerer for while the psion is a sorcerer+wizard hybrid I feel psion is closer to sorcerer. I could have done wilder but I don't like wilders and in my mind psion is closer to sorcerer than wild is to sorcerer mechanically if not flavor wise.

And yes Damage spells is not what a sorcerer should do (and what a psion shouldn't do unless he is novaing) but I am doing this for its easy mental comparrison.

Sorcerer

[Ramza00]

Note psionic damage spells are mostly comparable to arcane damage spells. In fact psion does more damage and higher dc but it burns up the power points like candy.

Now psion vs arcane spells is very different if you don't use damage spells. Arcane spells are just written so much better, so much more cheesy stuff in core and especially not core with arcane.

Also another thing about metapsionics they require expending your psionic focus. It takes a full round action to recover your psionic focus. (There is a feat that makes it a move action, another allows you to store your psionic focus in your psionic crystal). Sorcerer fullround metamagic casting is a lot faster, and with the new rapid metamagic feat which the sorcerer can get at 9th lvl or the PHB2 substitution option sorcerer is alot faster than psion on applying meta feats.

[hewhosaysfish]

Also the way that Psionic Feats let non-casters do supernatural-ish things without it making no sense. (They don't need powers or PP, they just have nice balanced rules to let them do amazing things like run on walls or shatter an object.) It's exactly like the Monk was supposed to be ... except, wait, it's not as confined to Asian-flavor either.

[nitpick]I thought that character had to have a PP reserve to take [Psionic] feats. Checking the SRD I see that actually they have to have be able to manifest powers or have Psi-like abilities to take them.[/nitpick]

[Ramza00]

[nitpick]I thought that character had to have a PP reserve to take [Psionic] feats. Checking the SRD I see that actually they have to have be able to manifest powers or have Psi-like abilities to take them.[/nitpick]

There are a list of feats in xph that you don't need to be psionic for.

• General
  • Antipsionic Magic
  • Autonomous
  • Chaotic Mind
  • Cloak Dance
  • Closed Mind
  • Deadly Precision
  • Force Of Will
  • Greater Manyshot
  • Hostile Mind
  • Mental Resistance
  • Mind Over Body
  • Open Minded
  • Psionic Affinity
  • Psionic Hole
  • Rapid Metabolism
  • Reckless Offense
  • Sidestep Charge
  • Stand Still
  • Wild Talent (Makes you psionic)

[its_all_ogre]

yeah they need power points, so what?
a fighter could take wild talent as a general feat and then access those feats, you just need power points, not any powers to use them you know!
i find that psionics is balanced and generally underpowered compared to arcane/divine casters.
do not know about the psychic warrior, though i use them regularly as bad guys. most of the psi-classes have the ability to dish out large damage in one-off blasts and then suddenly drop in efficiency after one or two rounds.
makes them scary npcs but average-poor pcs, a fighter/barbarian still does more damage than a psychic warrior due to less MAD, but the mobility of the psychic warrior makes him much better for higher level play.
most of the psi-PRc are sucky, none give full caster progression.
at really low levels wilders do tons of direct damage with energy rays, with the choice of doing a few really potent blasts or moderate blasts all day, by using wild surge. at higher levels their few power available let them down though i imagine.

[ocato]

Okay, a lot of my information was based on 3.0 Psionics and campaigns where nothing had any defense against psionics. I see they balanced it a bit.

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, a lot of my information was based on 3.0 Psionics and campaigns where nothing had any defense against psionics. I see they balanced it a bit.

A bit? A LOT. 3.0 Psionics to 3.5 Psionics is like comparing a pound of fool's gold to a pound of gold.

[Khantalas]

Or an ounce of fool's gold to a pound of gold.

[ocato]

okay, sorry.

[Fax Celestis]

Or an ounce of fool's gold to a pound of gold.

I wouldn't go that far. 3.5 Psionics is terrific, but not perfect.

[Khantalas]

No, it is 3.0 Psionics that was terrible. Have you seen the post about what it would be like if Turn Undead was like Psychic Combat?

[Assassinfox]

No, it is 3.0 Psionics that was terrible. Have you seen the post about what it would be like if Turn Undead was like Psychic Combat?

Sounds interesting! Tell me more!

[Douglas]

No, but I'm guessing it's something along the lines of "all undead in a 60 ft radius are paralyzed for the rest of combat". I think even 3.0 was much better than 2e and earlier, but I know from experience that Mind Blast was still way too good and could be gotten way too early in 3.0. Of course, that's still better than my vague memory of figuring out that a 2e psion could get Disintigrate a level or two before he'd have enough power points to actually use it.

[Khantalas]

I have used this model before, but to really appreciate how this "class feature" worked you should see how it would apply if ported to mainstream D&D where they haven't been conditioned to accept inferior mechanics without question. Lets take the big sacred moo, a Cleric's undead turning ability:

DM: "Before we get started, Cleric, I just want you to know that I am instituting some changes in your turn undead class feature that will make your class more different and give it a unique divine mechanic."

Player: "OK. How does it work now?"

DM: "Well, for starters, when you attempt to turn undead you will now have to burn a spell."

Player: "A spell???? What level?"

DM: "Different levels. It depends on what turning mode you want to use. Sanctified Gesture takes a level 1, Divine Dance of Power takes a level 2, High Holly Homina Homina takes a level 3, and...."

Player: "Wait, I assume I will get a bonus on the roll based on the level of spell slot I sacrifice?"

DM: "Sometimes you will. Other times you will get a penalty based on the turning defense mode the opponent selects. Turning and turning defense modes will interact on a table. The table determines the actual DC of the roll, not the level of the spell slot burned. Choosing a given defense mode may actually mean you pay a spell to get a penalty on the save, but it will still be better than being defenseless."

Player: "The undead will get defense modes?"

DM: "Sure, so will you. Each round you will select a turning attack mode and a defense mode. In fact, you will need to select a defense mode against each undead opponent each and every round and each will cost you spell slots."

Player: "Wwwwwwhat????!!!!!! What if I am facing undead who do not cast spells, I assume they won't get to mount a defense?"

DM: "It doesn't matter if you face undead without casting ability because their turning and turning defense modes are free."

Player: "Wait a minute! This is stupid! One of my 3rd level spell slots could be spent on Searing Light which fries undead; why would I ever spend it on an attack mode that might help me on a turning attempt? And why would I ever take a turning defense mode, much less a separate one vs. each undead opponent? I would simply choose to ignore undead or cast spells against them or go at them with weapons. I would have to have brain damage to choose to turn with these rules!"

DM: "If you fail to mount a defense then each unblocked undead gets a special +8 bonus to hit you for having this wonderful class feature and choosing not to use it. They also get to drain your stats if they hit. This will apply also to anyone who adds a level of Cleric; multiclassing will be very flavorful."

Player: "But I am a spellcaster, I need to be able to cast spells. How can I do my job if my spell slots get sucked away every time we run into undead?"

DM: "Well, how can you do your job if you are dead or reduced to a mindless state? You need to use your spells this way or you may not live long enough to cast them anyway."

Player: Head down, silently weeping into his hands.

DM: "I should mention too that you will be able to make turn undead attempts vs. nonundead; if you succeed they will be stunned for a few rounds. Of course, everyone who does not have this feature will get a huge bonus on the save DC. The best part: If you blow a 5th level spell to use High Holy Hokey Pokey then everyone in a large area could be stunned for a long while and they don't get a bonus vs. this one mode -- that makes the entire system usable and balanced."

Player: "They should all be stunned if they ever see me willingly use these rules. This is preposterous! I need my spells to heal and buff and perform all the functions of a Cleric. How am I going to be of any use to the party if I hemorrhage spell slots every time we run into undead?"

DM: "That is the beauty of it: You get to choose whether to use your spell slots as they were intended or save your own hide by using them to turn. Come on and at least give it a chance. It will be a mechanic unique to your class so it must be a benefit. You don't want to be just another spellcaster do you? This will add so much flavor and.... Hey! Get him off of me!"

Player: "How ya like that fist flavor?"

Yeah .

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah, it's pretty much like that.

[Douglas]

Hehe, yeah, that's pretty accurate. Though extending the analogy would lead to most campaigns having almost no undead and the player gleefully using High Holey Hokey Pokey to turn supposedly challenging fights into cakewalks, and doing it several levels before he actually got any 5th level spells.

[Assassinfox]

That was amazing.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Another thing which hits the Psion hard is the fact that using a Metapsionic feat not only costs extra PP (and this counts to your maximum number of PP to manifest a power), but it also blows your psionic focus, which you have to blow a full round action (or a feat and a move action) to regain. This limits the Metamagic Abuse which Wizards are infamous for.

[Green Bean]

Other members seems to have well covered mechanical reasons why psionics should be used, but psions can be satisfying to play from a story perspective as well. I mean a fighter or a wizard are using the same attacks or spells on random encouters as they are on the campaign end-boss (though, admittedly, the wizard will be using more high level spells). With a psion you can do stuff like dropping more of your points into a powerful, last ditch attack, or using overchannel to go beyond your normal limits at heavy cost. To me it just seems very narratively satisfying to be doing stuff you wouldn't do normally because there's more at stake.

[Zincorium]

Yeah .

Just to join in, yeah.

I was somewhat put out when our main DM decided that while we were going to be allowed to use psionics and they would be used against us, which is all well and good, and that we were going to use the expanded psionics handbook (3.5), which is also good, but he was going to use the psionic combat system from 3.0 'because it was so cool' and expand on it to mean that psionic powers all were useless against non-psionic characters because of the 'non-psionic buffer' BS that WotC came up with just for that section. Applying it to all powers, not just ones that affected someone else's brain.

I'm glad I did not have my heart set on playing a psion, because that might have ruined the experience for me permanently.

[marjan]

Convince me to Allow Psionics

You will never make me convince you!!!!!

This doesn't make much sense, does it?

[NullAshton]

Another thing which hits the Psion hard is the fact that using a Metapsionic feat not only costs extra PP (and this counts to your maximum number of PP to manifest a power), but it also blows your psionic focus, which you have to blow a full round action (or a feat and a move action) to regain. This limits the Metamagic Abuse which Wizards are infamous for.

Which is offset by the fact that the extra power points are equivalent to extra levels. That, and all psionic characters should have psionic meditation anyway.

There's also a few interesting differences. For example, Quicken Power. Increases the power points you use by 6, but Quicken Spell uses four levels. It's just... different, that's all.

Hmmm... wilders can at high levels use an assimilate and then a quickened assimilate, for 40d6 damage and some nifty bonuses...

[Ramza00]

Which is offset by the fact that the extra power points are equivalent to extra levels. That, and all psionic characters should have psionic meditation anyway.

There's also a few interesting differences. For example, Quicken Power. Increases the power points you use by 6, but Quicken Spell uses four levels. It's just... different, that's all.

Hmmm... wilders can at high levels use an assimilate and then a quickened assimilate, for 40d6 damage and some nifty bonuses...

Just to further emphasize a thing about psionic. You can only augment or use metapsionics up to your manifester level (just like you can only do metamagic to your maximun spell slot)