Paladin ability question!

[The J Pizzel]

So my party will be investigating a Paladin of Kord who has been smuggling slaves in the city to sell off. One of my players (a low level pally of Kord) will find out and the ensuing battle should be nice. Here's my problem.

Does the slaver Paladin (we'll call him Barion) lose his pally abilities since he's been slaving? If so, what can I make him to make him pretty scary to the PC's. He'll only be ECL 5 so most PRC's are out.

Thanks in advance,

pizzel

[Fax Celestis]

He will indeed lose his paladin abilities, but you can trade his paladin levels for blackguard levels on a 1:1 basis.

[Assassinfox]

So my party will be investigating a Paladin of Kord who has been smuggling slaves in the city to sell off. One of my players (a low level pally of Kord) will find out and the ensuing battle should be nice. Here's my problem.

Does the slaver Paladin (we'll call him Barion) lose his pally abilities since he's been slaving? If so, what can I make him to make him pretty scary to the PC's. He'll only be ECL 5 so most PRC's are out.

Thanks in advance,

pizzel

Slavery is an Evil act. There's no way in heck he'd keep his powers. Could make him a Paladin of Tyranny, though.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...hterAndTyranny

[NovaSeaker]

Well I would assume that slavery is evil. However you as a DM have final call on that. Is slavery evil in your campaign? If so, then the paladin looses his abilities.

I'm confused, however. Kord is Chaotic is he not? How does he have Lawful devotees? Or are you waving the "worshipers must be one alignment step away" rule for deities?

If you want to keep the paladin a challenge, you could have him secretly convert to a Paladin fo Tyranny (say through an atonement spell cast by an evil cleric), and use the rules for that instead of the PHB paladin. The Paladin of Tyranny variant can be found here.

EDIT: Ninja'd. :(

[The White Knight]

You are in error, Fax. To trade in Paladin levels for Blackguard levels is something that requires 11 or more Paladin levels prior to gaining one's first level in Blackguard. That means you're looking at ECL 12 minimum for this bad boy.

Unless, of course, you just mean using DM fiat to swap the abilities that are equivalent from a mechanics standpoint (Smite Good for Smite Evil, Divine Grace for Dark Blessing, etc) on the basis that they ought to be balanced.

[Fax Celestis]

Or just making him a Blackguard 5. There's no real reason that he can't do that with DM Fiat. It's mechanically sound, uses existing material, and requires a minute amount of fudging on the DM's part, while still remaining within Core material.

Conversely, Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter may be a good option.

[Renegade Paladin]

"Paladin" of tyranny/slaughter is never a good option.

Anyway, this actually depends on several things. In the Forgotten Realms setting, one of the single largest slaveholders in the whole of Faerun, the pharaoh of Mulhorand, is a paladin. But since this guy's been smuggling, I presume he's breaking the law, i.e. is in defiance of the legitimate authorities of wherever he's at. I would call that a gross violation of the code upon taking into account just why he's defying said authorities.

And there remains the question of just why a chaotic good deity (who doesn't have a special exception written in, i.e. Sune) is sponsoring a paladin, much less one who approves of slavery.

[Diggorian]

I agree with the others above, make him a Hextorian Enforcer -- aka Paladin of Tyranny, I just hate that phrase semantically.

[Assassinfox]

"Paladin" of tyranny/slaughter is never a good option.

Why?

Anyway, this actually depends on several things. In the Forgotten Realms setting, one of the single largest slaveholders in the whole of Faerun, the pharaoh of Mulhorand, is a paladin. But since this guy's been smuggling, I presume he's breaking the law, i.e. is in defiance of the legitimate authorities of wherever he's at. I would call that a gross violation of the code upon taking into account just why he's defying said authorities.

Must be a Grey Guard.

[The J Pizzel]

Hmmm, my plot may be difficult to achieve mechanically then. Here it is in short hand...

The low level pally PC (Cypher) will be assigned to gaurd duty at an upper level pally NPC's (slaver Barion) mansion because there's been a rumor that a small force will be trying to take it over. Why would this small force be trying to take it over you ask? Good question. Because the local thieves guilds founding father (an old gnome) who has since retired the operations to someone else has gone and misplaced his "adopted daughter" a 14 year old human girl (think Bruenor and Cattie Brie) and he believes that a pally at the local temple of Kord has been using his "paladinship" as a front for maintaining a slaving ring. My other 3 PC's are going to infiltrate the mansion and find it to be 100% true and now my pally PC (Cypher) has to chose between morality and his elders. Oh, and the pally PC is CG. And yes, slavery is an evil act in my campaign.

Any ideas on how I can have an evil paladin in a CN Church of Kord and still pull off levels of pally.

thanks

pizzel

[Beleriphon]

Why?



Must be a Grey Guard.

No, the Mulhorandi slaves are generally treated better then most freemen in other nations. So the term is largely semantic given that all slaves in Mulhorand are owned by the state religion and rented out to prospective users. This isn't Szass Tam style slavery where you work them until they drop dead and then go capture more.

[Assassinfox]

Any ideas on how I can have an evil paladin in a CN Church of Kord and still pull off levels of pally.

thanks

pizzel

Could make him a Paladin of Slaughter, CE.

Same link as before.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...hterAndTyranny

[The J Pizzel]

I can't check the d20 website till I get home. How could be be a pally of tyranny or slaughter and have been getting by at the temple with all the other CG pally and clerics of Kord. Any ideas. Besides a really good dimpomacy. I'd say he's about 3rd in command of the temple. The leader is a Pally/Shinning Blade of Kord and second in command is a level 8 pally/cleric of Kord. Any thoughts?

[Fax Celestis]

Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location would make his alignment undeterminable.

[bosssmiley]

I'm with NovaSeaker on this one: Paladin of Kord? I presume you allow non-LG 'paladin lites' in your game?

As for the character losing his granted powers: it all comes down to the question of "What's Kord's position on slavery?" If Kord is OK with enslaving cowards or one's defeated enemies (although that sounds more Hextorian to me...) then why would he frown on such behaviour in his chosen warriors?
Anyone got a Dragon back issue with a Kordite "Core Beliefs" article?

PS: Kord's holy warriors would be more likely to be barbarians IMO.

[Renegade Paladin]

Why?

Two reasons:

1.) Gross abuse of the English language.

2.) Thematically, the classes suck. Why give them contagion other than "paladins have it, so they must have the opposite?" Were I designing an evil champion class, the absolute last thing I would do is model it directly from the paladin. The abilities are poorly worded (technically, the auras all give the benefits of aura of courage as well as their stated ones because it states that they in all other ways work as aura of courage but never say that the abilities granted replace those of aura of courage) and so are the alignment requirements. The variant class rules in Unearthed Arcana state that all classes are identical to the base classes presented in the PH except as noted, and they never note a change to the ex-paladin section, so they all fall for not being lawful good...

[Aximili]

And there remains the question of just why a chaotic good deity (who doesn't have a special exception written in, i.e. Sune) is sponsoring a paladin, much less one who approves of slavery.

Second this.

I can think of a Paladin from a Chaotic deity.
I can buy I LG paladin doing slavery.
But nothing can make me understand why a paladin from a CG (the alignment of freedom and good-against-law) deity would be in to slavery.

[hewhosaysfish]

Firstly, I don't see a paladin of Kord as being that unlikely. As long as Kord is firmly Good, the paladin shouldn't get too confused between his oaths and his morals.
And as for the Law/Chaos thing, I'm amused by the mental image of a temple of Kord with a big sign by the door saying "No Lawfulness, by Order of the High Priest" and everyone just wandering in off the street when they feel like it.
The paladin would have to be quite good-natured about the testosterone-fueled jock-ularity of his chaotic compadres, though. Maybe he should make his Most Famous Class Feature out of quite a soft, flexible wood...
But I think Kord would approve of full BAB, d10 hit die and a big sword.

On the subject of the slavery plot, the 'paladin' would have to be evil and hiding it quite well. Perhaps he was evil from the start and infiltrated an order of paladins to provide the perfect alibi (probably LE for the planning and discipline to pull this off). Or perhaps insisted on being so lawful and by-the-book because he was afraid of his own darker nature (DUN DUN DUN!) but under the influence of his Chaotic faith, he began to rely less on the paladins' code and more on his own judgement, the judgement he had previously considered suspect....



In the first case, he could be mechanically anything: evil paladin variant, Ftr/Rog/Blackguard, Rog/Spymaster, Doppleganger Spellthief/Ur-Priest, Brb/Hulking Hurler... ok, maybe not the last one...
In the second case, he should start as a paladin and go to Blackguard. It reuires a bit of jiggering with the backstory to get that peaceful contact with an evil outsider (and quite a turn-around from pure paladin Good) but it's the only way to avoid being a below par fighter.
If you can't accept the Law/Chaos clash in a pally of Kord, make him a Brb/Divine Crusader or a Ftr/Holy Liberator or a Swordsage/Pious Templar or something. Either don't give him that many levels in his divine PrC so he doesn't lose much or have him hook up with an evil (or evil-leaning neutral) cleric and atone. Apostate!

[The J Pizzel]

Ok, let me elaborate some more. He doens't have to be a pally. I just want everyone to think he's a CG Pally. I can stat him as a level 5 fighter or hexblade or whatever. But how can I have him as the 3rd to highest ranking "pally" in the temple of Kord and be getting away with it. So, to clearify the whole "how does a CG deity like Kord support this??? He doesn't. I just want me evil bad guy to look like a pally in the church of Kord. Any ideas on classes and items.

pizzel

[Fax Celestis]

Aha. There's the rub. Perhaps make him a Hexblade, Duskblade, or even a Crusader.

[Grey Watcher]

I was about to suggest that you not get so hung up on class requirements determining rank in an in-game order. No reason a Fighter who seems good and honorable and all that shouldn't be able to rise in a knightly order, even one that tends to be dominated by Paladins.

As for how he got in, perhaps he WAS a Good Guy when he joined the order and for most of his rise in the order, and having gotten involved in the slavery relatively recently (say, the last year or two).

As for magic items, yeah there are various items out there that can help you out. The only downside is then tend to be pricey. Even a Ring of Mind Shielding is 8000 GP. Still, if this is a custom setting, no reason you can't make up convenient rules for why members of the Order can't scan each other's alignment.

[Diggorian]

Yeah sure. Ring of Mind shielding, plus high Charisma, plus ranks in Bluff & Knowledge religion (to reflect knowledge of Kord's traditions) could pull it off for any melee class that can be dressed up like a paladin.

[PMDM]

I'm with the minority here. I think a paladin of tyranny is a good choice. It's the quickest fix you can get if you're in a bind. If you only have the core books, and the SRD, the paladin of tyranny is a good call for low level play. High level play, though, is much more interesting with blackguard.

You could always make your own class too. That's usually the best fit, because you know exactly what you need.

[Starbuck_II]

Well I would assume that slavery is evil. However you as a DM have final call on that. Is slavery evil in your campaign? If so, then the paladin looses his abilities.

I'm confused, however. Kord is Chaotic is he not? How does he have Lawful devotees? Or are you waving the "worshipers must be one alignment step away" rule for deities?
(

You do know only Clerics must within one alignment.

[mikeejimbo]

1.) Gross abuse of the English language.

I always considered it Poetic Irony. When you get to be a high enough level Writer you get the Poetic License class feature.


(It comes sometime after Pun-making )

[The J Pizzel]

For those who care:

I made him a Hexblaxe/Warlock. Not an optimal build I know, but the flavor was perfect. He eldritch blaste(ed) when they were away from him and falchion(ed) them when they were close. He "hexbladed" the damage dealer and all his hired gaurd kept the PC's busy so he could blast them. Oh, and I gave him lots of gear and feats pertaining to bluff, diplomacy and I gave him a ring of mind shielding. All in all, it was perfect. Thanks for the help.

pizzel

[Diggorian]

Glad to help.