To Kill a DMPC

[...]

I need the DMPC of the campaign I'm playing in killed. Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly fine with DMPCs, I'm just not fine with them being Epic-Level Monks when the maximum level the PCs have is an even prime number. It's practically guaranteed that he won't be raised, and 2 DMs, one without feelings for the DMPC, are in the game, I will have a semi-level playing field plot wise. What do I do?

[SowZ]

I need the DMPC of the campaign I'm playing in killed. Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly fine with DMPCs, I'm just not fine with them being Epic-Level Monks when the maximum level the PCs have is an even prime number. It's practically guaranteed that he won't be raised, and 2 DMs, one without feelings for the DMPC, are in the game, I will have a semi-level playing field plot wise. What do I do?

You kill him OOC by talking to the DM. The kind of DM who won't listen to what makes the game fun for the players isn't going to the kind of DM who allows his pet to be killed.

[...]

You kill him OOC by talking to the DM. The kind of DM who won't listen to what makes the game fun for the players isn't going to the kind of DM who allows his pet to be killed.

I've considered that too. I thought that if I got rid of him OOC, that wouldn't change the DM's opinion of letting a Gary Stu running around in the campaign being fun to everyone except me. The only way to get rid of him permanently is to show the consequences of putting anyone in a D&D game and expecting them to win everything.

[Hyena]

Okay, sit and repeat after me. "I will not solve OOC problems with IC methods."

[SowZ]

I've considered that too. I thought that if I got rid of him OOC, that wouldn't change the DM's opinion of letting a Gary Stu running around in the campaign being fun to everyone except me. The only way to get rid of him permanently is to show the consequences of putting anyone in a D&D game and expecting them to win everything.

It isn't your job to prove anything, or to teach people lessons about how D&D is played. If explaining your issues with the current game to the DM doesn't help, and you talk to the other players and they legitimately have no problem with it, the adult choices are either: A. live with it. B. find another group.

[BWR]

Have to chime in on the chorus: don't solve OOC problems with IC methods.
Have a serious chat with the DM about this and hope that fixes the problem. Don't be confrontational, be deferential. Don't be angry, be apologetic. Don't make it sound like the DM is obligated to remove the DMPC, make it sound like the DM is doing you a favor if he removes the DMPC.

People in general respond so much better if you take a quiet approach and make things seem like they are your fault rather than theirs.

[Dycize]

I've considered that too. I thought that if I got rid of him OOC, that wouldn't change the DM's opinion of letting a Gary Stu running around in the campaign being fun to everyone except me. The only way to get rid of him permanently is to show the consequences of putting anyone in a D&D game and expecting them to win everything.

See bolded parts.
If you got rid of him OOC, that means the DM changed his opinion! Doing it ICly might just prompt him to bring out an even bigger DMPC.
And if everyone else in the group is fine with it... Definitely, definitely talk about it OOC with your DM. If that doesn't chang anything, either live with it, or find another group if it's really a game breaking experience to you.

[Palanan]

Apart from the OP being "not fine" with the DMPC, I'm not seeing exactly what the in-game problem is.

If this is just a question of philosophical discomfort, then that's probably not worth derailing the game and possibly getting your character taken out of the action. If you're just trying to prove a personal point, there are better ways to do it than sabotaging your friends' game, which seems to be the subtext here.

[Sartharina]

... out of morbid curiosity, can we get information about the game, DMPC, plot, actions, and party composition and disposition toward the DMPC?

I know I've seen a few 'Epic-level Super DMPC's that are actually just low-level characters (Not necessarily higher level than the party) that happen to be well-established in the world. As in 'Oh, this monk NPC that tried taking on an entire cult, has two dozen pages paragraphs (Some players can't tell the difference) of background, and a first and last name (That are clearly deliberately thought out, not a Firstname RandomNounverber!) with a reference to having a class get mistaken as high-powered DMPCs by paranoid-enough players.

[Yora]

Killing a level 21+ character with a 2nd level party would be a fun challenge.

Pointless, since the DM can instantly replace him, but asuming it's 3rd edition D&D or Pathfinder, the game is so broken than everything can be killed somehow.

[Bulhakov]

I'll join in with all the reasonable voices in this thread - talk with the DM about it. RPGs are not about competition, so lose the "me vs DM" set of mind and openly talk with the DM and other players about what takes the fun out of the game.

[prufock]

How do the other players in the game feel about the DMPC? That's pretty vital information. If everyone hates it, then you have a good case to present to the DM. If you're the only one with the issue, though, you've got a hard row to hoe.

I've had DMs introduce uber-NPCs as well, and it bugs the heck out of me when they become main plot points or plot fixers. But other players enjoy them as characters, so I sit back and let it be. Of course, I did plan for contingencies, so I always had a "how to kill this DMPC" plan in the offing.

[Jay R]

I've considered that too. I thought that if I got rid of him OOC, that wouldn't change the DM's opinion of letting a Gary Stu running around in the campaign being fun to everyone except me. The only way to get rid of him permanently is to show the consequences of putting anyone in a D&D game and expecting them to win everything.

1. You've given no in-character reason for your character to kill him.

2. You are not likely to successfully kill the DM's favorite character.

3. Even if you do, you haven't taught the DM anything except to watch his back. The next DMPC will walk in, and be ready to defend against you.

4. If it is in fact "fun to everyone except [you]", then you're trying to take fun away from everyone else to benefit yourself alone.

Killing him would cause ill-feelings and arguments, is probably impossible, and will only change the name of the DMPC. There's nothing to be gained here.

Talking to people may have a low probability of success, but it is still the only possibility of success.

[Valefor Rathan]

"When in doubt, set something on fire."

In all seriousness, our group has a player that tried GMing a bit a few years ago and we ran into a GMPC that was the main character (...hooray...) and we all just kind of watched as we rode the rails. We tried talking to him about it and he wasn't interested in our input. That game stopped real quick. He got the message real clear when none of us wanted to play in his world anymore.

I think the conversation really needs to happen, with the DM and the other players before the next serious session.

[...]

... out of morbid curiosity, can we get information about the game, DMPC, plot, actions, and party composition and disposition toward the DMPC?

I know I've seen a few 'Epic-level Super DMPC's that are actually just low-level characters (Not necessarily higher level than the party) that happen to be well-established in the world. As in 'Oh, this monk NPC that tried taking on an entire cult, has two dozen pages paragraphs (Some players can't tell the difference) of background, and a first and last name (That are clearly deliberately thought out, not a Firstname RandomNounverber!) with a reference to having a class get mistaken as high-powered DMPCs by paranoid-enough players.

First of all, I do have an IC reason, I was just too lazy to post it. Second of all, the DMPC is an epic-level monk (I know this for a fact) who is not noticeable in the campaign world, but has appeared in a previous campaign, so I knew what was coming from a mile away (and by that, I mean my friend had to remind me). The rest of the party I won't go into for reasons I do not want to explain, but I will tell the reason I want to settle this IC. You see, I get pretty annoyed when a character is included for no discernible reason other than to "Show Off," and I think this is the only reasonable solution to the problem (and by that, I mean the only fun solution). Also, my IC reason is that my character thinks the DMPC is the head of a cult we're investigating.

[Fiery Diamond]

First of all, I do have an IC reason, I was just too lazy to post it. Second of all, the DMPC is an epic-level monk (I know this for a fact) who is not noticeable in the campaign world, but has appeared in a previous campaign, so I knew what was coming from a mile away (and by that, I mean my friend had to remind me). The rest of the party I won't go into for reasons I do not want to explain, but I will tell the reason I want to settle this IC. You see, I get pretty annoyed when a character is included for no discernible reason other than to "Show Off," and I think this is the only reasonable solution to the problem (and by that, I mean the only fun solution). Also, my IC reason is that my character thinks the DMPC is the head of a cult we're investigating.

So... what I'm getting from this is: "My DM is including an epic level former character of his to play out a power fantasy. I don't like this on principle, but since no one else seems to be making a fuss I don't want to be seen as someone who complained when everyone else was having fun. Also, it's really boring to just talk to the DM about it. What would be FUN (and cathartic) and therefore my only solution is to kill the DMPC off in-game. That way, I get to screw with the DM and have a power/revenge fantasy of my own while tearing down the DM's! Much more satisfying than talking it out and having people think I'm a complainer."

Did I get that about right? Because... well, see, I can understand and sympathize with that view and attitude. I can easily see myself in your shoes. I still think it's wrong; you need to step back and look at how the situation is viewed by the rest of your group, not just you. Sure, it might be more fun for YOU to kill off the character. But which choice is nicer to the DM and other players? Do you think the DM will be happier for you to kill his character (which he clearly likes) than for you to tell him you'd like the character gone? No? Then maybe consider his perspective and don't just mess with him. (I mean, he's in the wrong from my perspective too, but... still a person you're gaming with, yanno?)

[Sartharina]

Well, it's your funeral.

You've made an IC excuse for an OOC issue. If you think it's the 'only reasonable solution' to the problem, you're the one in the wrong. At least until the DM does something more terrible with the DMPC than happen to be a guy in the setting your party runs across.

[Bulhakov]

Listen to all the experienced players and DMs in this thread.

The only way to teach a DM to improve his game/correct his errors is to maturely talk about it OOC. Pulling in game stunts to piss him off will just show immaturity and produce unnecessary tensions between friends.

You seem fixated on destroying the DM's toy, because he's unfairly taking advantage of his position of power to show it off.

[Jay R]

Based on everything you've told us, you have four options.

1. Play the game as presented, accepting the conditions, and have fun anyway.
2. Quit the game.
3. Talk to the GM about your problem.
4. Commit suicide by trying to kill a character who is there so the DM can "show off". (Your phrase, not mine.)

You are choosing the worst possible option, and the only one that has no possible good result for you. You won't kill it unless the DM allows it. If the monk is there for the DM to show off, then the DM will show off. If for some reason the DM lets you kill him, his brother will appear in the next session, because the DM wants to "show off".

There is no possible result here that you will enjoy.

One last thing: If the monk is there so that the DM will show off, then attacking him serves all the DM's purposes - as long as your character dies trying it.

The Yankees can beat the Red Sox. The Cowboys can beat the Giants. But nobody can beat the referee.

[AMX]

Semi-random thought:
"2 DMs, one of them running a DMPC" kinda sounds like that DM wanted to play on the other side of the screen this time, and only let himself get talked into co-DMing by the promise of "you can totally run a PC, too."
If that actually is the case here, going after the DMPC is a really effective way to make the whole game fall apart, since you're taking away the entire reason for one of the DMs to be there at all, and the other DM presumably had a really good reason for wanting a co-DM.

[jaydubs]

If that was the case though, "I'll run a DMPC that's much more powerful than the rest of the party" is basically the top of the list of "how not to run DMPCs."

I throw my hat in with those that say, try talking to him about it. If he really wants to run a DMPC, suggest that he run one with the same rules and power level as the other players.

[Talakeal]

Does anyone want to help the OP with his goal?

It may not be best for the game, but I really want to see him pull it off.

[Lord Torath]

Is this DMPC adventuring with the party, or setting things up in the background? Does he show up and negate all the party's efforts by doing what they could do better and faster? How many times has he pulled the party's collective butts out of the fire? Is the DM bragging about how powerful this guy is? How critical is he to the plot? Do you know what kind of relationship he has with the BBEG? (eg. best buddies, wants him dead, never heard of him, etc).

Are dice rolled in gaming sessions for his actions that are away from the party?

[Mr Beer]

Is this DMPC adventuring with the party, or setting things up in the background? Does he show up and negate all the party's efforts by doing what they could do better and faster? How many times has he pulled the party's collective butts out of the fire? Is the DM bragging about how powerful this guy is? How critical is he to the plot? Do you know what kind of relationship he has with the BBEG? (eg. best buddies, wants him dead, never heard of him, etc).

Are dice rolled in gaming sessions for his actions that are away from the party?

These are all important questions OP, because as it stands, all we know is that the GM has a character from a previous game who happens to be part of the world. You seem determined to be angry about that, well fine, that's your choice but some objective reasons would be better than what you've provided so far.

Also, as everyone has said, trying to kill the DMPC is pointless, in fact if you succeed in doing so and the DM doesn't immediately replace him with another DMPC, that proves that your complaints are unfounded. If a DM wants to 'show off' via a DMPC, no in-game attack on that DMPC will prevent that from occurring, if anything attacking them is a perfect opportunity to display their awe-inspiring combat coolness.

[Magikeeper]

Regarding actually killing the DMPC, how could we give advice regarding that without knowing the statistics involved (What the party has access to, what books you have access to, optimization level, etc)? Is this monk just a dude with a lot of levels? Hauling around thousands/millions in magical items? Carefully chosen feats? Is he even pure monk? Templates?

What role does the world at large play? Could you orchestrate the DMPC's death through other organizations? Any important house rules?

At the moment all we know is that the DMPC is epic level and that the party is level 2. That is no where near enough information to give killing advice beyond "check out various optimization threads". We don't even know what your PC's class is!

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That said, I agree with everyone else here on this sounding like an OOC issue.

[Exediron]

Regarding actually killing the DMPC, how could we give advice regarding that without knowing the statistics involved (What the party has access to, what books you have access to, optimization level, etc). Is this monk just a dude with a lot of levels? Hauling around thousands/millions in magical items? Carefully chosen feats? Is he even pure monk? Templates?

What role does the world at large play? Could you orchestrate the DMPC's death through other organizations? Any important house rules?

At the moment all we know is that the DMPC is epic level and that the party is level 2. That is no where near enough information to give killing advice beyond "check out various optimization threads". We don't even know what your PC's class is!

None of that matters, though. The sort of DM who makes an epic-level character for himself in a second-level party isn't going to let some clever trick or optimized strategy kill his character. They'd find him either suddenly immune to it, seeing it coming, receiving help from another high-level character who was previously unknown, etc. Can't be done.

I (5th? 6th? Whatever number) the suggestion that the only reasonable solution here is to either just deal with it, or talk to the DM out of character. Don't make everyone else in the group suffer by trying to prove some point, because the only point you'll actually prove is that you can't handle things in an emotionally mature way.

[Magikeeper]

Going to note once more that I do agree with the "solve this OOC issue OOC". Especially if no one else minds the DMPC! Would you like it if one of your fellow players nuked something you like about the game from high orbit because they A) Didn't like it. and B) Weren't willing to even talk to you about it? I'm not talking about the guy with the DMPC (Although you should talk with him too), I'm talking about the other people.

That said,

None of that matters, though.

...the OP did note this game has more than one DM, and that he believes the second DM has no special love for the DMPC and (presumably) won't warp the world to keep it around.

[Jay R]

Does anyone want to help the OP with his goal?

It may not be best for the game, but I really want to see him pull it off.

Nope. I do not want to help him ruin the game and get a reputation as a game-breaker. I want to talk him out of self-destructive behavior and into trying to get along and use teamwork and politeness to solve the problem.

[DontEatRawHagis]

What would the bards say "The adventurer's then killed Hagar the Monk for being too good at killing the enemy and being a jerk about it."

[AMX]

If that was the case though, "I'll run a DMPC that's much more powerful than the rest of the party" is basically the top of the list of "how not to run DMPCs."

True, of course - the bit about the DMPC being imported from a previous campaign could be a factor there.

What was the monk's role there, anyway?
Standard NPC that was appropriate for that campaign?
Already wildly overpowered DMPC?
Character run by the guy who is now DM?