Geomancer

[Kosmopolite]

Hey, all.

I'm currently playing a Sorcerer/Druid Gnome. I'm thinking about aiming for the Geomancer PrC. I've read the rules, and it looks pretty good, but I was wondering what public opinion about it was? Does the class work well, is it worth taking?

Thanks in advance.

[PinkysBrain]

Dual caster builds which don't abuse ur-priest, sublime chord or early entry tricks are poor in general. Trying to get into them with sorcerer makes them poorer due to the slower spell progression compared to wizard.

The geomancer stands out as really atrociously bad among the dual casters though, since it's only single progression yet requires you to get into it with dual casting. In return it gives you abilities only useful for melee combat and poor ones at that. Being a dual caster you are of course in a really good position to make use of that ... not.

So in short, the class sucks ... and so I'm sorry to say does a gnome sorcerer/druid. I could see a single level sorcerer dip as a druid ... but you can't even do that without experience penalties. Ugh.

[Stevenson]

Oh, I love it, but it depends on a few things. Firstly, expect for your play to be unchanged until you hit level 3 in this class, except for the merging of spellcaster types {which is good, gives nice perks}

Ley lines, to be honest, isn't too great unless there's a certain type of area you guys are always battling in.


Drift. Drift is one of the best flavor and game mechanic class feature I've seen. It's a huge amount of choices a level, and you can also use it for some odd interractions. If you think having fur would get you weird look, be sure to invest in a hat of disguise.

[Kosmopolite]

Haha, thanks for that, Stevenson.

Yeah, PinkysBrain, the build is characterful more than it is optimised. I don't really mind if my character will become Jafar or Gandalf. I'm just having fun with it. What I don't want, though, is for my choices to make me completely useless in the party, which is my main worry.

[Assassinfox]

The geomancer stands out as really atrociously bad among the dual casters though, since it's only single progression yet requires you to get into it with dual casting.

Didn't notice that until you pointed it out. All this time I thought it had Mystic Theurge progression. My opinion of the PrC has just plummeted.

[PinkysBrain]

Vampire I think your character has met it's quota of de-optimization ... cut your losses and take an actually good prestige class. Which would be the arcane hierophant.

[Fizban]

Indeed, the lack of dual casting makes gemancer that much more underpowered. If you can get your DM to let you have two casting progressions, it'd be great. If he needs convincing, point him to any other MT style class besides the MT. Arcane Heirophant, Fochlucan Lyrist, Noctumancer, Anima Mage, Jade Pheonix Mage (kinda), and others all get abilities besides the double casting, and are still relatively underpowered because they lack the high level spells of a single class caster. In particular, the continuation of wild shape for the druid theurge classes just amazes me, "Oh, let's just continue the most powerful non spell ability of the druid, just because he's taking a druid themed class, yay!"

[TheOOB]

If you where to combine the benefits of the Mystic Theurge and the Geomancer the class would still be underpowered (barring cheese such as the Ur Priest and Sublime Cord), because having access to better spells is almost always better then having access to more spells.

The only real purpose for the geomancer I have found is in gestalt campaigns, in said circumstance the geomancer acually makes some pretty nasty casters.

[Ranis]

Yeah, PinkysBrain, the build is characterful more than it is optimised.

I would like to applaud you for playing flavor and not optimization.

That said, what book is Arcane Heirophant in?

[marjan]

If you realy want dual-casting class take arcane hierophant. And there is feat in Complete Arcane that allows you to cast one second level spell at first level (though not that easily) so see if you can convince your DM to count it as being able to cast second level arcane spells.

[Assassinfox]

That said, what book is Arcane Heirophant in?

Races of the Wild.

[Ranis]

Races of the Wild.

Thanks. Appreciate it.

[Kosmopolite]

Well, the reason I've gone down this route is the way my character has developed. He started as a sorcerer, and I found him constantly defending a (doomed, as it turned out) wolverine we crossed paths with, so next session I'll be multiclassing into Druid (I assumed that this discussion would take longer, so I said I already had), then I was thinking of his long-term development down the nature root, since his new-found love of nature has had such an affect as to change his alignment from chaotic to neutral (respecting the laws of nature, rather than the arbitrary ones of civilisation). I want to keep developing him in a natural way, but if you think there's a better route (though it's a shame I'll lose drift, which I really liked) then lay it on me.

[kamikasei]

You might try running the Fey Druid variant the Giant put together by your DM. It has a feat to let you use Charisma instead of Wisdom for Druid abilities, which would synergize much better with your Sorcerer levels. The specific feat is Fey Blood, which is 1st-level only, and requires you to know the Sylvan language; but if your DM was okay with it you could explain it as your sorcerer meeting some fey in his journey towards Nature, and learning that it's fey heritage that gives him his sorcery.

edit: As others have suggested, there's also the option of asking the DM to let Geomancer progress both classes. Depending how open to homebrewing the DM is, try:
a) proposing the above feat when you class into Druid. Try asking him to let it include, or to allow another feat to grant, Cha in place of Wis as the relevant ability for skills on the Druid class list.
b) asking for the enhanced Geomancer class.
It's a fair few special privileges, but really, the straight Sorcerer/Druid/Geomancer build would be so weak that these concessions would hardly be unbalancing. You'd end up with a Sorcerer/Druid hybrid with less in the way of MAD thanks to the Fey feat, but no access to the highest levels of either class.

[marjan]

If you really like the sorceror/druid idea then it would be best to take Arcane Hierophant. Not the best PrC but still better than Geomancer and it keeps to flavour of your character.

[PinkysBrain]

Even if the geomancer was dual progression it would still be significantly worse than the arcane hierophant ... just take the arcane hierophant and get the natural bond feat.

[AtomicKitKat]

Don't look at Geomancer as a spellcasting class. It's not. It's more along the lines of a feral Dragon Disciple/Acolyte of the Skin/Greenstar Adept. It's a transformative class that happens to advance your spellcasting along the way. If you're the main caster(of either side), avoid it at all costs. However, if you're the buffing guy(eg. Bard), or the secondary tank(eg. Bard, Rogue), it gives you some options(Mostly, the natural attacks would give you extra Sneak Attack chances each round, or even poison).

[PinkysBrain]

How would a rogue even qualify? It has dual casting prerequisites ... you have sunk all your resources into being dual caster before you can even qualify. You might suck at casting at that point, but that is nothing compared to how badly you suck at everything else.

Casting is the only way forward at that point, the geomancer just does not present a good way forward. It doesn't go anywhere but down. It's atrocious ... it's a complete and utter waste of paper just like the war priest.

[Kosmopolite]

Yeah, I'm the main caster, really. There're a couple of secondary casters and a paladin-tank. I'll check out the Arcane Hierophant ASAP. Could someone give me the gist of the flavour of the class, please?

[Assassinfox]

Yeah, I'm the main caster, really. There're a couple of secondary casters and a paladin-tank. I'll check out the Arcane Hierophant ASAP. Could someone give me the gist of the flavour of the class, please?

Pretty much a nature-focuses Mystic Theurge. Gives divine and arcane progression, and lets you combine your familiar and animal companion.

[Kosmopolite]

What book is that from?

[Assassinfox]

Races of the Wild.

Indeed.

[Kosmopolite]

That was for Arcane Hierophant. Are they connected? (Sorry for my ignorance).



Also, Ranis I appreciate the applause. I missed your post the first time around.

[AtomicKitKat]

Ok, replace Rogue with Spellthief then. The point stands that the class is really only useful for getting more attacks(plus some "RP-related" benefits), and in that case, you want more damage on said attacks.

[Kosmopolite]

Yeah, I've taken a look at Arcane Hierophant and it looks really good. Really close to what I'm after: combining the two. It's a shame it doesn't have drift, but that could've been developed more anyway, so I guess it's not really any sort of loss.


So how long do you think I should wait before multiclassing? I'm currently level 3 sorcerer and (will soon be) level 1 druid.

[PinkysBrain]

Go 3/3, take natural bond at 6th then take another level of sorcerer before going into arcane hierophant. Or in other words ASAP.

You won't be much use to your party for about 3 levels (they are looking for scorching rays and invisibility, you are throwing around magic missiles). I'd ask the DM to allow you to rewrite your third level feat to practiced spellcaster BTW.

[Rigeld2]

I would like to applaud you for playing flavor and not optimization.

Because really... its impossible to do both.

[Kosmopolite]

What is natural bond?


Yeah, I didn't really think about what would be most effective. I thought about what race I wanted to be, then I thought about what class I liked, then let the character evolve.

[PinkysBrain]

It's like practiced spellcaster for your animal companion ... you can add three levels to your effective druid level for your animal companion.

[Kosmopolite]

What book is it in, please?