Am I a whiny player?

[Tyger]

Okay, we're playing in a great D&D campaign, the GM is fantastic, game's great, players are all great etc. I'm playing the sole wizard in a group composed mostly of warrior types (ranger, psychic warrior, crusader, cleric, scout and me) and we get occasional downtimes in between our adventures, which is great. For every three weeks of DT that you don't have anything specific planned, the DM has a random table of minor adventures you go on all by your self. They can be very lucrative. One player, over his two "adventures", earned about 2k gold, a suit of enchanted full plate, an ioun stone and a wondrous figurine... which is almost as much magical loot as the entire party split after our last adventure. Note that there is no RP or playing of these DT adventures, the GM just tells you what happened and then gives you the spoils.

However, as an arcane caster, I spend pretty much all downtime researching spells. The DM does not allow buying scrolls, and didn't care for the DMG researching rules, as they didn't factor in skills, access to libraries, etc. So he and I came up with a system (it's in the spoiler for those who'd like to know).

Spoiler

Show

Spells require a number of "points" to learn.

Level one: 3
Level two: 6
Level three: 9
Level four: 15
Level five: 30
Level six: 60
Level seven: 120
Level eight: 240
Level nine: 360

Points are earned thusly:
1 / five ranks in Spellcraft
1 / five ranks in Knowledge Arcana
1 / day spent in research
1 / 100GP invested in materials of research
1 / 100XP spent
1 / 1000GP value of library used for research
1 / 1000GP value of alchemical lab used for research

Minimum time to research is one day.

I am currently level 7, with 10 ranks in both Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana. Thus I have a base of 5 points automatically (2 for ranks in Spellcraft, 2 for ranks in Knowledge and 1 for the base day spent) so level 1 and 2 spells basically take a day or two tops. A level 4 spell on the other hand will take 11 days of research unless I want to spend gold or XP or have access to libraries.

As a general rule, I will not have access to libraries, as the DM wants me to build my own collection.

In a nutshell, level 1 and 2 spells take almost no time, but anything above that takes a week or more (level 9 spells will take months). And then I have to pay to scribe the spells into my book.

After this most recent adventure, I came out of the DT with less gold that I went into it, having added 6 level one spells, 3 level two and 2 level threes. I am currently level 7. I have yet to get a magic item. One of our warriors (the psychic warrior) snagged a Ring of Protection +2, a masterwork mighty bow, a masterwork longsword, and then got the aforementioned ioun stone, figurine and suit of plate (which he sold to the cleric).

I know that wizards are always going to have money sinks as we learn spells, and I can accept this, but it just seems that I am being forced to choose between advancing my spellbook or advancing in any other way. Am I just being petulant, or is this a legit beef?

[kamikasei]

Downtime is downtime. If you have to use that time to learn new spells and the others are getting free loot instead, you're already being gimped. If it's also been made harder/more expensive for you to learn those spells, you're doubly gimped.

I would say it's a legitimate beef, especially given that there is no way it's fair for a player to be getting rewards for downtime without playing through it with commensurate risk. Adventuring for any reasonable amount of treasure is meant to be risky. If you want to get money during downtime without needing to go on a dangerous adventure, make a profession check.

[Zincorium]

Well, you're not being petulant but you do seem to be somewhat obsessive about gaining more spells as opposed to actually adventuring. I can see a few legitimate reasons why the DM would want things to be this way.

One, he wants to restrict the number of spells you have to a reasonable level that he can remember you have and thus adequately plan for.

Two, he's aware of the stupidly high level of power wizards have by around level 13-15 and is trying to slow you down a bit so you don't outshine everyone else.

Three, he doesn't want you to spend all of your downtime scribing spells, as you have been, so he made it a less-attractive option on purpose. Have you gone on any of the adventures? I can't say much about the magic items bit, that seems either an oversight or nerfing, but if everyone else is getting good rewards, he may be attempting to convince you to go on a few.


Also, being able to buy any magic item is by DM's discretion, while there are guidelines for what should be available, they're not hard rules and they're not for player's use anyways. If you can't buy scrolls, are they available through adventuring? If not, that is a gimp, or possibly they're on all those side quests you haven't been going on.

[Krellen]

OTOH, he's a wizard in a group full of non-spellcasters, and has reached the level where wizards start "winning"; it could be the DM is one of the folks that don't think wizards should dominate high level play and is "gimping" the spellcaster purposefully to accomplish that.

You should probably talk to him about it, see what's up. It might be you should just ask to play a different character, if he really doesn't like wizards and other full casters enough to hamper their development.

[Tyger]

With regard to the 'maybe he's trying to rein in the power of wizards' category, it's quite likely. We've had talks about the Polymorph spells (which I don't have as of yet) and he's limiting them a bit, which is great. He's moved Teleport to level 8 and added an XP cost to cast it, and Greater TP to level 9 with an even higher XP cost (comparable to Wish). So yeah, he's got some limits there, which I happen to agree with. Some of those spells are game breakers. And he really likes to have the journey to the actual adventure as a big part of it, thus the nerf to TP, again, which I agree with.

As for finding scrolls, so far, we've found one scroll. A scroll of Planar Binding. We're holding onto it for now, until either a) and emergency or b) I can afford to buy it from the party to scribe it into my spellbook.

[marjan]

Well your DM obviously thinks Wizards need nerfing. But by the way you describe it it is a little too much. I mean however you want to count your points he practicaly counts 1XP worth 1gp which is kind of insane if you ask me. And if I understood the guys who "go" on those solo adventure get magic items at no risk of anything bad happening to them. You should speak with your DM about this a bit. If he wants he can let the other guys "go" on these adventures while you scribe spells into your spellbook and it will give them a little advantage over you.
And wizard at lvl7 without magic items is usualy not as near to other party members.
If your DM for some reason doesn't want to change those rules you are better of as sorceror. Nerfing casters a bit is good to keep balance and help other party members shine, but nerfing them too much hurts them more than it helps.
BTW does this sort of thing only apply to Wizards or do Clerics have some nerfing too?

[lacesmcawesome]

I think you're being rather reasonable, and that the DM shouldn't be so harsh on your class. Not whiny at all.

On the other hand, the game is for the most part at the DM's discretion, and his rules go. Yea, that doesn't mean he should abuse his power, but I also think he's probably got reasons. If you ask him what's going on, or why you can't do some of the stuff, he'll, in all likeliness, answer you.

[Logic]

When a wizard needs nerfing, you don't punish him by not leting him get anything, you remove spells that you find troublesome from the game, before anyone decides to play a wizard.

What your DM has done is unfair.

[Tyger]

BTW does this sort of thing only apply to Wizards or do Clerics have some nerfing too?

Wizards only at this point. Our cleric hasn't been effected as far as I can see.

[marjan]

That probably means that he has bad experience with wizards only but it is not realy excuse for this kind of nerfage. Buy reducing some of the most game breaking spells effectivness he has done good amount of balancing wizards. But you are not the only one capable of breaking game with your spells and the way he does things you realy won't be able at all to do it. Talk to him and see reasons behind this. Balancing game can be done without nerfing wizards if the player who plays it is reasonable about using spells.
And paying an XP cost all by yourself just to cast teleport and save your party members is bit too much.

You already said that you like traveling without using spells if possible so I don't realy see why he does that kind of nerfing to spells you obviously won't use anyway.

[clericwithnogod]

If someone came into the forum and wrote, "My DM cuts the players with a steak knife to simulate the wounds our characters receive in combat. I don't want to complain, but I'm getting a little lightheaded lately and almost passed out on the way home from our last session..." we'd see at least one each (and likely several) of the following:

1) Your DM has a good reason for it.
2) It's the DM's game and he can run it anyway he wants.
3) It's your fault for your character getting hit so much instead of...

[marjan]

If someone came into the forum and wrote, "My DM cuts the players with a steak knife to simulate the wounds our characters receive in combat. I don't want to complain, but I'm getting a little lightheaded lately and almost passed out on the way home from our last session..." we'd see at least one each (and likely several) of the following:

1) Your DM has a good reason for it.
2) It's the DM's game and he can run it anyway he wants.
3) It's your fault for your character getting hit so much instead of...

That's pretty nice interpretation but unfortunatly not correct.

1) Not every DM has good reason, although most of them do.
2) It's not DM's game it's everybody's game.
3) I won't even say anything about this one.

[Tyger]

With respect Clericwithnogod... what's your point? Are you suggesting that I a) suck it up, b) quit the game, c) cut someone with a steak knife? :)

I'm sure there is sarcasm and irony in your post, but that doesn't come across well in an electronic medium. If you have an opinion on the actual question though, I'd be happy to hear it.

[asqwasqw]

I say talk with the DM about this situation. Could you lower the days needed to research a spell or research more spells for the same number of days?

[Zincorium]

If someone came into the forum and wrote, "My DM cuts the players with a steak knife to simulate the wounds our characters receive in combat. I don't want to complain, but I'm getting a little lightheaded lately and almost passed out on the way home from our last session..." we'd see at least one each (and likely several) of the following:

1) Your DM has a good reason for it.
2) It's the DM's game and he can run it anyway he wants.
3) It's your fault for your character getting hit so much instead of...

Well, that's because it's impossible to hear both sides of the story from just one person. If we could ask the DM questions, we might be able to say something concrete, but until then supposition is all we can do.

And your example is kind of extreme, but honestly, if someone is cutting you with a steak knife and all you do is go on a forum to ask people's opinions, you're beyond help.

[Tyger]

Yeah, given the feedback here, I am going to talk to the GM about it. I probably should have included this in the original post, but the reason that I posted this at all was not because I am incapably of making my own decisions, but because I haven't played D&D since the Expert set (remember that shiny blue book!? ) so wasn't sure if it was considered normal that wizards would really be expected to concentrate most, if not all, of their time and resources on getting their spellbooks up.

For the record, I have a whooping total of 8 second level spells, 6 third and 2 fourth in my spellbook... its not like I am trying to get the whole Compendium into the book.

[clericwithnogod]

With respect Clericwithnogod... what's your point? Are you suggesting that I a) suck it up, b) quit the game, c) cut someone with a steak knife? :)

I'm sure there is sarcasm and irony in your post, but that doesn't come across well in an electronic medium. If you have an opinion on the actual question though, I'd be happy to hear it.

With the same due respect, if you're a native speaker, you're being deliberately obtuse in your interpretation of my post. But I'll spell it out. It's apparent that you are quite evidently getting the shaft from your DM, Regardless of that, quite a few people are going to come up with excuses for your DM and would regardless of how badly your DM was treating you.

[Artemician]

Going from what you're saying, no , I don't think you're being whiny at all.

Your DM has made things comparitively more difficult for you than the other players, and while some people would whine and complain, you have tried to see things from his point of view. Bravo to you!

In this situation, I feel that the DM may be coming down a bit too harshly on your character. You could, as suggested above, try to talk to your DM about reducing the nerfs on your character or allowing for more access to libraries. In any case, you should not throw a temper tantrum about a reduction in power loss. But from what you're typing, you haven't been, so good for you.

[Tyger]

With the same due respect, if you're a native speaker, you're being deliberately obtuse in your interpretation of my post. But I'll spell it out. It's apparent that you are quite evidently getting the shaft from your DM, Regardless of that, quite a few people are going to come up with excuses for your DM and would regardless of how badly your DM was treating you.

Without getting into a flame war... its not obvious. As noted, that could well have been a different kind of sarcasm.

But thank you for clarifying.

[clericwithnogod]

Without getting into a flame war... its not obvious. As noted, that could well have been a different kind of sarcasm.

But thank you for clarifying.

No flame war, but what other kind of sarcasm?

[Tyger]

Ahh. It could have been taken as a "gee, suck it up, and quit your complaining, we hear these every day" or a "why not grow a spine and talk to your DM who is obviously screwing you hard with a corkscrew!" sort of thing. Turns out is was sort of the second variety, without the... metaphors.



Again, thanks for clarifying.

[PnP Fan]

Tyger,
Yeah, I don't think you're being whiny. Your GM is actually taking away one of your class abilities (2 new castable spells per wizard level) in his adjustment to the game. Probably because he's had problems with wizards in the past. I'd sit down and talk with him away from the table.

[Tyger]

Oh, I should qualify that. I am getting my two freebies each level. Those spells gained remain unaffected.

[Zincorium]

Tyger,
Yeah, I don't think you're being whiny. Your GM is actually taking away one of your class abilities (2 new castable spells per wizard level) in his adjustment to the game. Probably because he's had problems with wizards in the past. I'd sit down and talk with him away from the table.

If the DM is taking away the 2 castable spells per level, that would be seriously gimping. But Tyger hasn't mentioned the DM doing that, as far as I can see, so he should still be getting them.

The problem is that the DM is not making scrolls available, is allowing the wizard to make up for that using a system where the wizard can copy down spells from a library or something from a nominal fee, and it's using up downtime. Meanwhile, the other PCs are getting more loot. This is a problem, but it's not the same as what you're talking about.

And yes, talking to the DM is necessary, and since the researching rules were stated as a cooperative effort, and Tyger is using them as is, the DM might not realize that Tyger still has a complaint with the system. That needs to be brought up.

Edit: Swoosh, the ninja strikes...

[clericwithnogod]

Ahh. It could have been taken as a "gee, suck it up, and quit your complaining, we hear these every day" or a "why not grow a spine and talk to your DM who is obviously screwing you hard with a corkscrew!" sort of thing. Turns out is was sort of the second variety, without the... metaphors.



Again, thanks for clarifying.

Actually, it's neither, so it's not clarified. As, by your post count, you were new to the forums, I thought it worth mentioning that a large number of responses you were getting would be the same regardless of how reasonable or unreasonable your problem was.

If you look at my other posts, you'll see that I don't subscribe to the "suck it up and quit complaining" or "grow a spine" theories. I'm in the "try to be reasonable but don't be surprised if the DM isn't reasonable then decide if it's worth it" camp.

[Black Swan]

You've got a fair bit of patience. More than I. I think you should probably talk with him, reason with him, get him to see that a wide spell selection is the wizard's best feature. Might help to point out that with a wider variety of spells you can do more to help the rest of the party win fights and better help keep them alive. Besides, if he's gimping you like that but not doing anything to the Cleric something's funny. IIRC clerics are more dominant than wizards at that level.

The wizard is really only overpowered, I think, when the player starts to get unreasonable. It's not broken until the player breaks it. I've seen a lot of wizards who were weak and borderline-useless because they were built and played really badly. I think he's being overly cautious. But that's just me.

[Yahzi]

For every three weeks of DT that you don't have anything specific planned, the DM has a random table of minor adventures you go on all by your self.

I can't decide if that's retarded or brilliant.

On the one hand, he's punishing smart players who are careful and engaged.

On the other hand he's helping keep the simple-minded on equal footing.

I mean, it's basically a reward for not playing your character. "You didn't do anything this month? Here, have some random treasure!"

The solution is obvious. Stop researching spells. Spend all your downtime in random adventures. When the party is getting wiped by 9 CR monsters because you're still casting 2nd level spells... you'll suddenly find that your GM is giving you spells as loot for your random side-quests.

[Tyger]

I can't decide if that's retarded or brilliant.

On the one hand, he's punishing smart players who are careful and engaged.

On the other hand he's helping keep the simple-minded on equal footing.

I mean, it's basically a reward for not playing your character. "You didn't do anything this month? Here, have some random treasure!"

The solution is obvious. Stop researching spells. Spend all your downtime in random adventures. When the party is getting wiped by 9 CR monsters because you're still casting 2nd level spells... you'll suddenly find that your GM is giving you spells as loot for your random side-quests.

:)

Actually, I kind of like it. Some of the stuff that came up involved one party member getting a new cohort (his DT adventure had him finding a Knight, turned to stone over 500 years ago, and setting him free.)

The DMs made it pretty clear that he's "helping" us get through the low levels faster, so that we can get to a higher level campaign sooner. Which we're all for. Its been a great game thus far, and I'm hoping its going to continue.

Thanks to everyone for your feedback. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't over reacting to the situation, and like I said, I don't have any D&D experience in this area, so this may have been perfectly normal. Now that I see it may not be, I've sent the DM an e-mail and we'll see what happens from here.

[clericwithnogod]

The solution is obvious. Stop researching spells. Spend all your downtime in random adventures. When the party is getting wiped by 9 CR monsters because you're still casting 2nd level spells... you'll suddenly find that your GM is giving you spells as loot for your random side-quests.

If you happen to get killed in the wipeout, try to come back as a wizard with an aging modifier and random adventures in the downtime of your history...40 years of random rolls on the adventure loot table before you even start.

[Lemur]

I have one question, Tyger, and I apologize for it not quite being related to the topic at hand.

You mentioned that the party got a Planar Binding scroll as loot. Now, maybe I don't understand the loot system your party has agreed upon, but why do you need to purchase it from the party in order to scribe it?

You mention "using it in an emergency" but if you're the only arcane caster, then you'd be the one using it. In the long run, you, by which I mean the entire party, would be better off scribing it to your spellbook. Once you are able to cast the spell, you can scribe a scroll of it, if you really want to make up for it. Also, you're better off trying to learn new scrolls as soon as possible, since if you fail, you'll have more chances to relearn it before you get to a level that you can cast it.

Pardon me for being a busybody though, I just wanted to get that out of my system.