Ray of enfeeblement neutralizing power attack?

[ken-do-nim]

Since you need 13 strength to use power attack, would you agree that an 18 strength fighter ray of enfeebled for 6 points would no longer be able to use power attack?

[Khantalas]

Well, um, probably not. After all, he's weaker than he once was.

However, ray of enfeeblement is a penalty to strength. Not damage or drain. Maybe that makes a difference.

I have no idea, honestly.

[Variable Arcana]

SRD says:

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.

So, I'd say, yep.

Ray of Enfeeblement -- the gift that keeps on taking.

[The Valiant Turtle]

I'm trying to find a reference in the SRD or on Wizards site. I can't find one at the moment, but I do believe you are correct.

^ looks like somebody found it.

[ken-do-nim]

I'm trying to find a reference in the SRD or on Wizards site. I can't find one at the moment, but I do believe you are correct.

^ looks like somebody found it.

Right but the question is, does a penalty mean you no longer meet the prereq.

[Quietus]

Yes, albeit temporarily. Just as you can qualify for a feat by using items that give an enhancement bonus, you can lose qualification for it by taking a penalty.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Right but the question is, does a penalty mean you no longer meet the prereq.

Indeed. The penalty actually makes your example character's Strength 12 for the duration of the spell. The prerequisite is a Strength of 13. The character no longer meets the prerequisite.

[Aximili]

Right but the question is, does a penalty mean you no longer meet the prereq.

Well, it always sounded odd to me, but you can meet Stats prerequisites by using magic items that give you a bonus to that stats. So the reverse should be true with a penalty.

[KoDT69]

Yes, albeit temporarily. Just as you can qualify for a feat by using items that give an enhancement bonus, you can lose qualification for it by taking a penalty.

This is one of those big oversights that WotC let slide through. Not only is using magic items to qualify for feats cheesey, but it doesn't make sense at all. Same thing with the Ray of Enfeeblecheese having no saving throw and being 1st freaking level. WOW let's just hand wizards a win button just for picking the wizard class. None of my players would even consider pulling that crap with me. And if it's a penalty, not a drain, I would say that it does not actually change the score, and therefore unable to "unqualify" you for your feat selection. But why would the fighter be power attacking with 10 less STR now anyways? Can't be a good option

[Variable Arcana]

So... does that mean that fatigue (-2 penalty to strength and dex) can make feats like Power Attack and Rapid Shot go away temporarily??

[ken-do-nim]

But why would the fighter be power attacking with 10 less STR now anyways? Can't be a good option

It's really not for power attack. There are a whole horde of feats that it is the prereq for: cleave, leap attack, improved sunder, improved bull rush, etc.

So a little ray of enfeeblement action, and a fighter's entire feat chain could be history. I don't like it. I think it is simple enough to decide that penalty does not equal drain, but it would be nice to know what the official rule is.

[Zherog]

Same thing with the Ray of Enfeeblecheese having no saving throw and being 1st freaking level. WOW let's just hand wizards a win button just for picking the wizard class.

Funny you should mention this. My third level wizard fired off one of these at the raging barbarian this evening. And missed.

There's no save because it requires an attack roll. And if the attack roll misses, the spell is wasted.

Yes, touch ACs suck horribly. But so does a wizard's BAB.

[ken-do-nim]

Funny you should mention this. My third level wizard fired off one of these at the raging barbarian this evening. And missed.

There's no save because it requires an attack roll. And if the attack roll misses, the spell is wasted.

Yes, touch ACs suck horribly. But so does a wizard's BAB.

That reminds me. Last year, someone posted a house rule they used for ranges for ray spells. I thought it was pretty good and a long overdue rule. I can't find it via searching though. I remember there were close, medium, and long varieties. I think the close range increment was 40 feet. Anyway, if anyone has rules for this or can find the old post it would be much appreciated.

[Innis Cabal]

touch AC's suck...but a high dex fix's all.....they balance...a level 10 sor/wiz should not miss the large dragon...thats just bad form

[Suzaku]

pfft if the dragon worth its age would learn scintillating scales or have a ring of it. If that dragon doesn't it deserves to die a horrible death >.>. Btw it's just a second level spell...

[Vik]

If the dragon has a CR according to PC levels, then a mere Dispell Magic will be enough to remove all his spells (dragons have CL offset by about 7 to 10 regarding their CR). Ray of enfeeblement is one of the very best 1st level spells, that's for sure, even if rays might prove trickiest to land than one could think - Dex is your 3rd stat, creatures are often in melee with your meat shield (so you're at -4 and they possibly have cover), and so on.

[its_all_ogre]

i personally would make them not use power attack while their STR is reduced.
i personally would not allow stat boosts from items to allow grabbing a feat, i honestly did not know this was the rule, and i certainly do not want to let it slide.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

So a little ray of enfeeblement action, and a fighter's entire feat chain could be history. I don't like it. I think it is simple enough to decide that penalty does not equal drain, but it would be nice to know what the official rule is.

Penalty does not equal drain, but that does not change the fact that the RAW has already been supplied whether you like it.

Boost your Strength or touch AC if you worry greatly about it.

[AtomicKitKat]

This, kiddies, is why Ray of Enfeeblement coupled with Ray of Exhaustion rock.
Just tack on a Power Word Weaken and you're set. ;)

Edit: Because Fatigue is stuperior to Exhaustion, duh. Replace with Sicken for even more bagging.

[Indon]

It strikes me that you're unlikely to drop the strength of a power attack-specialized warrior/barbarian/whatever below 13, since strength is likely to be their highest stat if, well, they're spec'ed to power attack.

Maybe with a lucky roll on Ray of Enfeeblement at like, character level 2 or 3, but stat bonuses to strength (well, assuming a stat point every 4'th level going into strength), magical items, and just plain adventurous rigor will probably keep the strength of such a meleer above the threshold required to drop him below 13 even with magic availible at that level.

Now, two-weapon fighting (edit: with some kind of dex penalty spell that is), on the other hand...

[KoDT69]

I houserule that temporary effects can not affect skills or feats already learned. Sure you can't power attack now, but does that make you less likely to score a critical hit? Seriously, think about it. Just because it's a feat required doesn't mean you must use it. Does Devastating Critical only kick in on rounds when you also use Power Attack? Not even close. So for my games, Ray of Enfeeblecheese can't make the Barbarian unskilled. He's still coming to get that pesky hedge wizard. Hope he's got more rays prepared! I seriously doubt that WotC even for a second put 2 and 2 together on feat requirements and ray of enfeeblecheese to realise even a touch AC with no save is totally unbalanced if it can also deny you your trained combat skills. Blech

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Note that just because you lose or does not meet the prerequisite and cannot use the feat you still have it for the purpose of qualifying for other feats, so unless these feats have the same prerequisite that you just lost you can still use those feats.

[KoDT69]

But if you lose Power Attack, you also lose all those that required Power Attack to gain right?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

But if you lose Power Attack, you also lose all those that required Power Attack to gain right?

No. You still have Power Attack. You just cannot use it.

Of course, most feats that have Power Attack as a prerequisite also have Strength 13 (or higher) as a prerequisite, too. Pretty much any feat that has another feat as a prerequisite has the second feat's prerequisites as well.

So getting your Strength reduced to 12 or lower eliminates your ability to use your Cleave, but it has nothing to do with your inability to use Power Attack and everything to do with your reduced Strength.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

No, only if they also have the same STR requirement.

Take Improved Sunder (and many others) as an example.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack.

It has both Str 13 and PA as prerequisites. If you were to be reduced below 13 in STR you would NOT lose the benefits of Improved Sunder because you lost access to PA.
However, you would lose access because of the reduction in STR.


Most feats inherits the base prerequisites of the first feat in the chain, but this is not the case for all of them.

EDIT: Combat Brute is an example of a feat you can still use even if your Str is reduced below 13 and it has both PA and Imp. Sunder as prerequisites.

[kamikasei]

But if you lose Power Attack, you also lose all those that required Power Attack to gain right?

You don't lose Power Attack. You still have the feat. You lose the use of Power Attack, temporarily, because you no longer have the strength to pull it off.

Power Attack is a prerequisite for Cleave, but you don't have to Power Attack in combat in order to use Cleave.

[KoDT69]

So this ability to deny feats, an intrinsic bonus for the mage, still seems unbalanced for a 1st level spell...

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Power Attack is a prerequisite for Cleave, but you don't have to Power Attack in combat in order to use Cleave.

You still need STR 13 though.

CLEAVE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack.

Combat Brute from Complete warrior is an example of a feat you could still use even though your STR has dropped. It has both PA and Imp. Sunder as prerequisites, but not Str 13.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

So this ability to deny feats, an intrinsic bonus for the mage, still seems unbalanced for a 1st level spell...

It requires a touch attack, uses up half of the 1st level Wizard's 1st level spells, and still requires a roll to determine the magnitude of the penalty.
Chances are that even if you are hit you won't be denied the use of your feats from this spell alone.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

So this ability to deny feats, an intrinsic bonus for the mage, still seems unbalanced for a 1st level spell...

As opposed to being able to kill (magic missile, burning hands, or even, Pelor forbid, acid splash) or leave your opponents at your mercy (sleep)?

And denying the use of a feat is contingent on several factors, none of which are a given:

1. Your opponent has a feat with a Strength prerequisite.
2. You hit your opponent's touch AC.
3. You overcome your opponent's spell resistance (if any).
4. You inflict a large enough penalty to reduce your opponent's Strength below the feat's prerequisite.

Combat Brute from Complete warrior is an example of a feat you could still use even though your STR has dropped. It has both PA and Imp. Sunder as prerequisites, but not Str 13.

Ah, I was hoping someone would find a feat such as this. Nice to know there are a few feats out there that don't have every prerequisite daisy chained in.