are these spells any good?

[jlousivy]

are these spells even worth using/useful outside of bizare circumstances(in a party of a fighter, ranger, bard, cleric(non CoDzilla but still doesn't do much spellcasting)

mage's sword?
any of bigby's hands?
reverse gravity?

***my DM is finally saying i can revamp my spell-list since he finally realized how gimped i was with just a ton of nukes.

I don't want to go all polymorph cheeze or the HAHA PARTY I DON'T NEED YOU ANYMORE. Just i want him to kick some ass for once, and have it look cool. (also if the bigby's hands are good i might go that one PrC that specializes in them)

[ken-do-nim]

Mage's sword - ask your DM to look at spiritual weapon. Tell him it is a 2nd level cleric spell compared to 7th level wizard spell, and it allows for
- multiple attacks according to BAB
- has a much longer range
- switching targets is a move action
If the DM agrees to allow mage's sword to work as spiritual weapon does, then absolutely take it.

Bigby's hand spells - there are some great combos you can do, like using the bull rush capability to push someone through a prismatic wall. Obviously the grappling one is nice to neutralize a medium-sized opponent, and if you have a lot of hit points, the clenching fist can keep an opponent busy for a while.

Reverse gravity - or heck, put the prismatic wall up near the ceiling, and reverse gravity on them. They fall up through the wall, then back down through the wall. Great fun at parties. (Edit: not my original idea; I read it on this forum)

[daggaz]

Good, or optimal? I'll answer for optimal..

Reverse Gravity is a total battlefield control spell, no save, no spell resistance. If you can find a place with high ceilings (or none at all), its a pretty good win situation. There are some more useful spells at that level tho, mage's mansion, greater teleport, mass hold person, to name a few. But I'd still put that one up as one of the better battlefield control spells, at least based on the fact there are no saves at all, and it can buy you the time to leave in a hurry.

Mage Sword is a damage spell... Just read the thousands of threads about how that is suboptimal. Still, its got its uses, and could save your ass one day.

Bigbies spells... Hmm... damage (bleh), or they can give cover (usually you can get this other ways), or they can perform various moves like grapple/bullrush (doable by a decent meleer). I've never been a huge fan of this line of spells. Others may disagree, and soon tho.

[Variable Arcana]

At 7th level, the spells that are going to make you incredibly happy are MMM, Greater Teleport, Forcecage, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Scrying... Greater Shadow Conjuration is also a phenomenally useful spell.

With three tanks in your party, you and the bard should be spending most of the combat either buffing (Mass Enlarge and Mass Bull's Strength and Haste, for example) your tanks or providing battlefield control (walling off half the enemies for later, or greasing a section of battlefield, or turning part of the area to mud, or...)

[jlousivy]

forgive me but... MMM? and teleport isn't all that useful. And he does alot of the campaign impromtuso divination is kinda.... useless. Forcecage-- if i can get him to waive the material cost (we get alot of items, but not too much $$$)

yeah i"m wanting to go more battlefield control like im going to get black tentacles (I haven't been allowed this one till about now) that and wall of force. Buffing spells besides enlarge person are lost on them since they already have an enhancement bonus to basicly everything but CHA.

[Ramza00]

Timestop+Reverse Gravity+Gate=Death with no save or sr to any monster that is incapable of flying, isnt' a full spellcaster, and is smaller than 20 feet in diameter.

[ken-do-nim]

forgive me but... MMM? and teleport isn't all that useful. And he does alot of the campaign impromtuso divination is kinda.... useless. Forcecage-- if i can get him to waive the material cost (we get alot of items, but not too much $$$)

yeah i"m wanting to go more battlefield control like im going to get black tentacles (I haven't been allowed this one till about now) that and wall of force. Buffing spells besides enlarge person are lost on them since they already have an enhancement bonus to basicly everything but CHA.

MMM = Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion = improved rope trick. It solves the problems of retreat & safe resting place, and can also be used for ambushes. Plus, it has style!

Back to mage's sword - the big thing is getting that redirect to be a move action. The multiple attacks and range would help too, but if your DM is willing to give you one of the 3, that's the one. Then it becomes a buff spell. It will last for 13+ rounds (since that's what level you are), so you cast it ahead of time, then when you get into combat you can still cast a spell and move it up to an enemy in the same round (if you don't have to move yourself). I know there's a knee-jerk reaction on this forum for damage spells = bad, but in this case it would be completely additional to whatever else you are doing. Also, it is force damage, and that can be extremely useful against incorporeal undead.

[Stevenson]

Not familiar with mage sword, not going to comment.

Since you've already explained you weren't looking for total optimization, I'm gonna say that the other two are good, I think. Reverse gravity is great fun...especially if you previously flew and stoneshaped some spikes on the ceiling.

Bigsby's hands-it's hard to generalize. The pushing one is probably the best, and the clenched fist is also useful, the other one's aren't crap, but aren't super awesome either.

[Morty]

MMM = Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion = improved rope trick. It solves the problems of retreat & safe resting place, and can also be used for ambushes. Plus, it has style!

Style? It's the lamest spell ever. WotC must have been on LSD while designing it. I wouldn't use that spell even if they paid me to, no matter how useful and powerful it is. The only core spell that can compete with MMM in utter lameness is Rope Trick.

[Quietus]

I happen to love MMM - I don't use it in the middle of an enemy pit, just because that's in poor taste, but my character does keep one memorized every day. We houserule that it's the same mansion time after time, so I can keep all of my various things in there, such as an alchemy lab, my altar to Wee Jas, and all that sort of stuff.

[Person_Man]

I have never used Mage's Sword, Reverse Gravity, or any of Bigby's spells, unless you count 2nd edition versions, and they're not on anyone's optimal list that I'm aware of.

Even Reverse Gravity, which is quite nifty, isn't that useful. By the time you get access to it you already have a dozen other excellent battlefield control spells, so your 7th level slots tend to be filled up with Greater Teleport, Banishment, Forcecage, Greater Arcane Sight, or metamagic versions of lower level spells.

[Kantolin]

I dunno... of that list, Reverse Gravity at least seems extremely useful. No save, no SR, you win?

[Amiria]

I rarely used any of these. Imo Modenkainen's Sword is the weakest of the three.

Reverse Gravity can be awesome under the right circumstances - but they are much too rare. Don't memorize the spell, get a scroll for those rare circumstances. No SR and no save spells are good for scrolls.

The Big B spells are funny. I like them. It is force damage. The lower level ones can seriously hamper an opponent. But my favorite is Big B's Clenched Fist (8th level). It stuns an opponent (Fortitude save negates).

[Person_Man]

I dunno... of that list, Reverse Gravity at least seems extremely useful. No save, no SR, you win?

No save, no SR, and not much of an effect.

If your enemy hits the ceiling, they take falling damage, which isn't very much in most cases. Then they just hang up there on the ceiling or floating in space for 1 round per level, and then they fall again much when the battle is over 13+ rounds later, taking a little more damage. While up their, they're pretty easy to pick off. And you've won. Right?


Wrong. First, it allows a Reflex save to if you have something to hold onto.

Next, Reverse Gravity is useless against enemies that can fly or levitate, and it deals no damage against creatures who are ethereal. So its useless against many types of enemies.

And against everyone else it deals a little damage if you're indoors, and then puts them on the ceiling. Whoopee. If they have ranged weapons or spells they're still free to attack you. If not, you've won.

Except that by the time you get access to Reverse Gravity around ECL 13, the melee types you're using it against can already be defeated by much lower level spells.

So, while its nifty, in most cases I would never bother memorizing it. There are much better spells out there.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Reverse gravity - or heck, put the prismatic wall up near the ceiling, and reverse gravity on them. They fall up through the wall, then back down through the wall. Great fun at parties. (Edit: not my original idea; I read it on this forum)

Unfortunately, you must read the description of the Prismatic Wall to realize that this actually won't work.

Prismatic wall creates a vertical, opaque wall—a shimmering, multicolored plane of light that protects you from all forms of attack

It has to be vertical, and thus you cannot send anyone flying through it with Reverse Gravity. You *CAN*, however, make a Prismatic Sphere over someone and Reverse Gravity them into it. However, by the time you hit 9th level spells, it would be a LOT easier to just Time Stop then 5x Delayed Blast Fireball on target (unless they have insane Ref saves, in which case, Otto's Irrestable Dance or just plain Disintegrate) to do 100d6.

Bigby... I've never used 'em, always saw more important things to get.

MMM... I just use Rope Trick. By this time, it's around for more than eight hours, so the whole party gets a free uninterruptable nights rest that cannot be ambushed, and I don't blow a 7th level spell on it.

Mage's Sword, also known as Mordenkainen's Sword in the PHB, is a good idea, but poor execution. It can't be used to flank, and you can summon far more powerful minions with Summon Monster VII at the same level.

[ken-do-nim]

Unfortunately, you must read the description of the Prismatic Wall to realize that this actually won't work.



It has to be vertical, and thus you cannot send anyone flying through it with Reverse Gravity. You *CAN*, however, make a Prismatic Sphere over someone and Reverse Gravity them into it. However, by the time you hit 9th level spells, it would be a LOT easier to just Time Stop then 5x Delayed Blast Fireball on target (unless they have insane Ref saves, in which case, Otto's Irrestable Dance or just plain Disintegrate) to do 100d6.

Well it just goes to show you can't believe everything you read on the forum. Btw, that time stop and delayed blast fireball trick was my idea! You actually need a greater rod of maximize to do it well though. If you read time stop, you'll realize that the DM rolls secretly how many rounds you get. So if you've actually only got 3 rounds, and you make a delayed blast fireball in each round lasting 5, 4, and 3 rounds (hoping the DM rolled a 4), then each of those fireballs will hang around for 2 rounds while your foe hustles it out of there. That's why I tacked on Otto's Irresistible Dance to the combo to make sure (a) they don't hustle away and (b) take a -10 on the save against the fireballs. Unfortunately Otto's doesn't work on targets immune to mind-affecting stuff like undead, constructs, etc.

[JellyPooga]

The Bigby's Hand spells are great! They're an excellent excuse to carry around several fancy outfits - check out the foci for them...leather glove, fancy gauntlets and more!!!

If you can't handle the weight, get your party meat-head (there's always at least one) to carry your wardrobe on the excuse that you need the whole outfit to cast the spells...when you cast it using only the glove, use your superior intellect to persuade him otherwise!

Whoever heard of a badly dressed Wizard? (Even if they are actually badly dressed, who's going to bring them up on it when they have the fear of all that arcane power? Same reason for Wizards never being late/wrong/ugly/[insert negative trait here])