How To Balance Casters, v1.0

[Fax Celestis]

I find these changes help balance high-level casters immensely. Certainly, they're still powerful, but they're not the demigods they are normally.

1. Contingency - removed
2. Time Stop - removed
3. Persistant Spell Metamagic - removed
4. Spells of the Polymorph Subschool - removed
5. Wild Shape - replaced by the PHB-II Shapechange variant
6. Clerics - Replaced by the UA Cloistered Cleric variant
7. Divine Power - accessible by War domain only

Thoughts?

[marjan]

That would be nice begining but there are more spells out there that need to be at least balanced somehow.

As for cloistered cleric: I actualy like them (6+int skill points are what I like most) and I don't see that big disadvantage when compared to standard cleric. He does have low BAB but that can be offset by Divine Power (which is maybe one of the spells that should be removed) and while not being able to wear heavy armor can hurt, the mobility you get in mithral breastplate may be worth lower AC.

[Fax Celestis]

Right, I forgot about that. I'll add that.

[Ramza00]

We covered this already. 8 different specialist similar to beguiler, warmage, and dread necro.

and/or

Use psionics for a "generalist"

and/or

Significantly rework the D&D spell list. Axing some spells (shivering touch, timestop,polymorph), significantly modifying others (wrathstrike is now a wiz/sorc 5th lvl spell, creating polymorph light where you select from a list of forms such as a trollshape), and then allowing a wizard/sorcerer to select from the new list.

[Fax Celestis]

We covered this already. 8 different specialist similar to beguiler, warmage, and dread necro.

and/or

Use psionics for a "generalist"

and/or

Significantly rework the D&D spell list. Axing some spells (shivering touch, timestop,polymorph), significantly modifying others (wrathstrike is now a wiz/sorc 5th lvl spell, creating polymorph light where you select from a list of forms such as a trollshape), and then allowing a wizard/sorcerer to select from the new list.

Actually, on that note about Polymorph: what would you say to polymorph only allowing forms available for summoning through Summon Monster I-IX, and breaking Polymorph into several versions (say, a 3rd, a 5th, a 7th, and a 9th)?

[NullAshton]

Perhaps another way to balance Polymorph is for the DM to say, 'You can use this form, you can't use this form.' Possibly with a bit of 'research' time to actually be able to polymorph into a form, and if the DM doesn't like the form that much, he can just say that you failed your research in some way.

[marjan]

Actually, on that note about Polymorph: what would you say to polymorph only allowing forms available for summoning through Summon Monster I-IX, and breaking Polymorph into several versions (say, a 3rd, a 5th, a 7th, and a 9th)?

Resticting Polymorph to just certain forms would probably do the trick, although I'm not sure if Summon Monster list would be apropriate. Some of the monsters are on the list mostly because of their spell-like and/or supernatural abilities so transforming into one of them would be quite useless most of the time unless you need that exact shape and size for some reason.

Edit:^^^ This is what you get for slow typing.

[MeklorIlavator]

Maybe making it similar to the Complete Mage polymorph spells, where each spell applies to only one from, so making it apply to the more exotic monsters would require researching the spell, always an expensive proposition.

And what about making spells that ignore SR higher level than they would ordinarily be, like orb spells, and making spell resistance an actual threat, maybe by letting a caster apply only 1/2 caster level to their caster level check?

[its_all_ogre]

the problem with the research idea in my mind is that an npc lich has had centuries to do nothing but study, remaining hidden and threatening nobody.

then an npc has access to nasty surprises that pcs do not.

unless your world has no liches and elves do not live for hundreds of years and....so on.

[Ramza00]

Ban normal polymorph spells.

Use the polymorph sub school with a couple caveats. Then make spells based off the polymorph subschool. Do not allow the form to get the form's spellcasting/psionic powers (such as if I do an illithid I am a 9th lvl telepath), or if you do allow it make it so you can cast only one spell or something. Second do something similar to the spell like abilities and any special su/ex ability that will give a dm headache. (Most monsters are like that in CMage/PHB2 which use the polymorph subschool, like you can only use one eye with a beholder per round and each eye only once)

Remember with the polymorph subschool you become the monster. You can't use items (well you can if you aren't wearing them when you cast the spell you then have to put the items back on, a short duration/or a dm saying no fixes this), you can't use your feats, spells, or class options (since those are your innate qualities), its pretty much a 1 to 1 switch with the monster excep you have far less hps than the monster. Then by allowing which forms you can access by a rough spell level to cr you fix most of the problem with polymorph, effectively you have created something similar to how the PHB2 did druids and shapeshifting.

[Ramza00]

You can read the polymorph subschool rules free here as an excerpt.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...060501a&page=5

[MeklorIlavator]

the problem with the research idea in my mind is that an npc lich has had centuries to do nothing but study, remaining hidden and threatening nobody.

then an npc has access to nasty surprises that pcs do not.

unless your world has no liches and elves do not live for hundreds of years and....so on.

Well, to research the spell, you would have to have several of the creatures, so the lich would have to leave his liar for long periods of time, plus the fact that the spell doesn't automatically work, and the fact that most of the favorite choices would be either level 9 or epic, the chance of making a working spell would be pretty hard. Plus, I have always viewed Polymorph as a very tricky set of spells, and so the accidents would likely out weigh the benefits, and that would also answer the question of why there are so few of these spells around. If theres a good chance that you'll be permanently change into one of these things, there will be a lot less incentive to play on.

[Ramza00]

And with the polymorph subschool I would allow the forms you can roughly assume be like this.

Spell Level 1=Cr 1/2
Spell Level 2=Cr 1.5 Forms
Spell Level 3=Cr 3 Forms
Spell Level 4=Cr 5 Forms
Spell Level 5=Cr 7 Forms
Spell Level 6=Cr 9 Forms
Spell Level 7=Cr 11 Forms
Spell Level 8=Cr 13 Forms
Spell Level 9=Cr 15 Forms

[Ramza00]

Note if you do the polymorph subschool idea with about 50 different transmutation polymorph spells I would also make a "arcane specialist" that focuses on these such as a beguiler who has all of them on his list. His speciality is the transformation aspect of transmutation, plus a few of the other transmutation spells as utility spells.

In effect make something more like a full base class master of many forms/shifter but far more balanced and regular (either I am weak or I am super strong)

[marjan]

And what about making spells that ignore SR higher level than they would ordinarily be, like orb spells, and making spell resistance an actual threat, maybe by letting a caster apply only 1/2 caster level to their caster level check?

Nerfing spells that don't allow spell resistance would be good, but I think that some of them are nerfed already and there is no way to nerf others (like forcecage). Applying only half CL to spell penetration check would nake no SR spells better so it would mean you need to nerf some of them even more. And some monsters would need their SR lowered too. For example Balor has SR 32 so if you roll caster level check this would mean that you add only +10 to it (no way to beat it) if you have Greater Spell Penetration you need 18 too beat it and with Assay Resistance you'll need 8 (which considering that you spent 2 feats 1 4th lvl spell slot 1 standard action would mean that it isn't even worth it).
Besides most game-breaking spells don't even allow SR.

[Gavis]

Ok so this is crazy no matter how much you limmit casters or shapers short of removing thier spellcasting/shaping ability all together you arent going to stop a spell casting class from being "over powered" learn to make a character that is effective is the answer to this problem.....if you have a serious problem with casters in your campaign (especially against non caster types) try looking at the mage slayer feat or the occult slayer prestidge class then get right in their faces with a nice melee weapon mage slayer makes it so casters can't cast defensively while you threaten them so if they choose to cast they provoke an attack of opportunity.....in short wizards of the coast makes a counter to basically anything you can make if you are smart about it and take the right feats/ build your character right

[marjan]

while you threaten them so if they choose to cast they provoke an attack of opportunity

5 foot step.
And you won't get close enough (at least not alive).

[Ramza00]

5 foot step.
And you won't get close enough (at least not alive).

May I remind you of this comic
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html

After you reread the comic, read this.

Spoiler

Show

This is why you have multiple little people you throw at the wizard causing him to waste his 5-foot step and a couple contingency type spells, then you throw the teleporter with the big attack onto him. What Bearded Devils are CR 5 and they have greater teleport at will. Succubus is CR 6 and also has greater teleport at will.

The way you beat a wizard is you overwhelm his defense, he got the big guns, but he can't use the big guns on everybody at the same time when he is "acting defensive"

[Piccamo]

In other words you're saying that wizards are the Death Star, his enemies are flying X-Wings, and his party is tie fighters?

[Fax Celestis]

In other words you're saying that wizards are the Death Star, his enemies are flying X-Wings, and his party is tie fighters?

To totally ruin any semblance of non-nerdity, yes, you could put it that way.

[marjan]

May I remind you of this comic
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html

After you reread the comic, read this.

Spoiler

Show

This is why you have multiple little people you throw at the wizard causing him to waste his 5-foot step and a couple contingency type spells, then you throw the teleporter with the big attack onto him. What Bearded Devils are CR 5 and they have greater teleport at will. Succubus is CR 6 and also has greater teleport at will.

The way you beat a wizard is you overwhelm his defense, he got the big guns, but he can't use the big guns on everybody at the same time when he is "acting defensive"

Nice one. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go I'm expecting some bears.

[Marius]

I banned Rods of metamagic in my games, I think that is a good nerf.

[marjan]

BTW, are we talking about Core-only here? If not the list is gonna be much much longer.

[Fax Celestis]

BTW, are we talking about Core-only here? If not the list is gonna be much much longer.

Whatever you think.

[Morty]

I'll personally seriously nerf all spells that don't allow SR and saves, as well as self-buffs - basically everything that makes wizards so untouchable. Teleportation, too.
As for cloistered cleric instead of normal cleric- that's simple and efficent, but I'll alter the class a little. Like, take away "Bardic" Lore and give something else instead.

[melchizedek]

I don't like wizards at all and am probably going to ban them entirely in my next game. The sorcerer is a far more reasonable Arcane Caster. With a few changes to the spell list, a sorcerer shouldn't be a problem.

[marjan]

Assay Resistance might need to be removed since it practicaly negates the need of (Greater)Spell Penetration feats and lets you beat almost any SR. Contigent Spell feat.

[Emperor Tippy]

Ok so this is crazy no matter how much you limmit casters or shapers short of removing thier spellcasting/shaping ability all together you arent going to stop a spell casting class from being "over powered" learn to make a character that is effective is the answer to this problem.....if you have a serious problem with casters in your campaign (especially against non caster types) try looking at the mage slayer feat or the occult slayer prestidge class then get right in their faces with a nice melee weapon mage slayer makes it so casters can't cast defensively while you threaten them so if they choose to cast they provoke an attack of opportunity.....in short wizards of the coast makes a counter to basically anything you can make if you are smart about it and take the right feats/ build your character right

Incorrect. I can make a wizard that the only way a non caster stands a chance of killing him is with about 10 in game years to prepare and lots of luck. A single mistake by the non caster and he is dead.

[hewhosaysfish]

Why does this thread declare itself to be "v1.0" in the title?
I think you've dropped a couple of zeroes Fax. And picked up an extra decimal point...

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Hm...seems simple enough, which is always a plus, doesn't involve significant amounts of revision (and thus doesn't need to be checked for CR validity).

I'd say this works as a 'fix' for a great many games- but I'm not sure how well just these changes would address the problems with magic's overall flexibility in a game where players have the initiative, experience, and time to use more far-flung source-books- and of course, in a vacuum, the wizard's superior movement options still give him a vast edge.

With an upgrade to fighter combat abilities, this could work for most games, yiss yiss.

Honestly? I won't necessarily use this in this form, so no simple yoink this time (unlike most of your recent works) but I do like some of these things, and some of the elements (such as the shapechange variant) are gaining so much momentum from various quarters as to be de riguer for anyone attempting to balance the magi.
In summary, nice.