The Mage Slayer!

[JackMage666]

For my next character, I was considering making a Mage Slayer, someone who focuses specifically on killing casters. While very limited sounding, the high BAB and Str should balance him out to make him OK at fighting other things, but he'll really show his colors when fighting spellcasters. Right now, the thigns I've got to build him are -

Human or Dwarf. Possibly Karsite, but it's unlikely (+2 level adjustment scares me, but prove me wrong if you think otherwise)
Starting off as a Ranger with Favored Enemy (Arcanist), from the Complete Mage. This puts a focus on Arcane Casters, but not much of one, and it's better than nothing to start with. I'd like to switch out of Ranger into something else, although I haven't figured out what, considering I need +5 BAB for....
Mage Slayer PrC, as some of it's abilities are quite good for my focus.
The Mage Slayer feat Tree from Complete Arcane, as I cannot see any fault in any of the feats. I mean, cannot cast defensively, their AC buffs drop, AND displacement doesn't work? Can't go wrong with that.
And a Magebane (Complete Arcane) weapon, which of course will be my select weapon for the Mage Slayer PrC's abilities. ALOT of damage to casters.

Anything else I can add to make it stronger? It's ECL 7 right now, with standard wealth, so obviously it won't get anything too strong, yet anyway. I'd like a race with SR, but I don't want the +2 LA that most seem to give for that ability. Am I the only one who thinks SR is overrated and costs way too much? It's basically AC vs. Spells that the Casters has Perfect BAB for.

[PinkysBrain]

A psychic warrior synchronicity abuser (to deal with quickened spells) AoO build with the thicket of blades stance (to deal with anything else). At higher levels maybe even try to fit in double hit and dual strike, so your readied actions and AoOs have a better chance of interrupting.

At high level all you do is manifest a linked synchronicity (next round you can link synchronicity to some cheap swift power) stand next to the caster with thicket of blades active. If he tries to cast a quickened spell you interrupt him, if he tries to cast a non quickened spell you interrupt him, if he tries to move away you make him stand still ... if he doesn't move away you kill him.

[ocato]

I am not familiar with mageslayer but you'll want something with evasion/improved evasion and some good reflexes I'd say. Or you could take a page from the Elder Scrolls classes and make your mageslayer like their witch hunter, ie, have access to limited spells for the sake of counterspelling, dispelling, and stunning (fortitude save stuns like soundburst, shout, or greater shout deal a hunk of damage to low hit die having full casters and that stun could make or break a fight with something squishy.) Granted you could probably acquire the counterspelling via ring or dispelling via wand/scroll (maybe start off rogue for UMD and Evasion) so these are all just ideas. Another good reason to consider a high dexterity class like rogue would be a respectable touch AC. You'd put off getting that Mage Slayer PrC if you need +5 BaB but you'd be pretty rough in a fight versus a wizard or sorcerer.

[silentknight]

I remember a PrC from Complete Warrior called Occult Slayer that might be an option. I don't have the book though, and I don't remember much more than the name.

[Aximili]

Dragonborn of bahamut (with the senses option)
Dragon Wings Feat tree.
Item of continuous Anti-magic field.

That way you get an Anti-magic field, and both Blindsight and Flying to reach those out of reach. That's as close as you can get, and you still won't reach those that dimension door away (which will be 99% of them).
(Yeah, I know Continuous AMF is not something you suggest in a thread, but hey, maybe someone will get to try it).^^

[Darion]

If you can suck up a large LA, Varoot Nera from Fiend Folio gives you reflective spellresistance.

Foehunter (from MoW, 3.0 but still good) allows you to pick a favored enemy (arcanist) to get good benefits against, the best of which is the Favored SR (which explicitely stacks with other SR).

Combining either Nerra or Karsite and Foehunter can give you SR most arcanists can't touch (50ish at level 20), with the bonus of either healing or reflecting. Obviosuly, good casters have tricks that SR doesn't stop, but its a good start. Add in evasion/improved evasion/mettle and a Mind Blank item and you're about as good as a non-caster is likely to be.

[Stephen_E]

I don't have acess to the more recent books, but here are a few points I looked at when I was playing with the concept previously.

Race - Pixie it quite strong. Yes, it has a +4 lev adj, but it has DR10/Cold Iron (Cold Iron weapons are rare and expensive to enchant) Flight, Imp Invisibility (yes, I know that see invisibility is a common spell, but mages don't always have it up, and their mooks almost never have it) and a strong SR - 15 + Class levels. Also it give you strong Dex, Wis and Char, with a livable Str penalty - later in my post you'll see the advantages of these.

Weapons - Spiked Chain is very strong. This is because the Mage Slayer feat chain mentioned only works while your opponent is within reach. Against a non-reach weapon the Mage steps back 5' and lets loose (yes, I know you can ready an action, but that only works if you can get adjacent with a single move. Rely on that and you'll have a short career). Another advantage is that you can take a level in Exotic Weaponmaster and gain the ability to deliver Stunning attacks via your Spike Chain. Also with a reach weapon, you can against a ground based mage fly 10' high and threaten his square and all adjacent squares while been out of his reach. This is useful against a Mage whose Concentration is good enough that he figures he can cast, sucking the AOO, and balst you with a touch spell.

Feats: You've already mentioned the Mageslayer feat tree, but it is important to remember that if you use the ability to remove AC buffs, it remove AL spells that increase AC in any way, even if the total effect of the spell is no change, so long as any part of the spell increases the AC the spell goes (Righteous Might, Polymorth, Haste, Cats grace, Owls Wisdom if they have Monk levs) and if you can convince your GM by fast talking or another feat that it includes spelllike/supernatural effects you can drop Druids out of Wildshape (I've never seen a Druid Wild shape inot something that didn't increase his Dex, NAC or decrease his size, all of which are AC boosts) Stunning fist is useful because it's a Fort Save. Not the best save of Wizards. Nothing like watching a Mage say "to hell with it" suck the damage from the AOO and make his concentration ck, only to fail the Fort save and spend the next round going "duh......". Getting it through two levels of Monk is useful in that it also give you Evasion, Combat Relexes and a good touch AC. The Flyby Attack and Great Flyby (Savage Species) tree is nice if you take a Pixie becuase it allows you to be useful in general as well as a antimage (fly in a straight line for upto 1 moves distance, attacking a numer of targets you pass within reach off upto your Dex bonus. No AOOs from those you attack). If that move leaves you within reach of a Mage, that's just to bad for the mage. Power Attack is nice because if you strip the AC buffs off a mage via the Mage Slayer feat tree, you'll probably have BAB to burn, and making it harder for the concentration check caused by AOOs is a good idea.

Classes. - Occult slayer from Complete Arcane has already been mentioned. I just pointed out the strengths of Monk. Hexblade is also worth a dip for Mettle (Evasion for Fort and Will saves) and Arcane Resistance (Char bonus to saves vs spells). If you can pick up further Save boosts via Char it is worth it if if the prereq requirements aren't too steep. Blackguard is one possibility, but I beleive there are others. In general dipping/multiclassing is a good idea. No base class I know of it designed for mageslaying, but many have useful features that are accessible by a quick dip.

BAB: A decent BAB is important, but don't stress to much about losing the occasional level. With the Mageslayer feat tree alowing you to ignore and strip mage AC boosts, a huge BAB isn't critical.

Stephen

[marjan]

You can also dip in one lvl of Pious Templar. It will give you mettle and has good fortitude and will saves.

[Stephen_E]

If you go Spiked Chain a 1 lev dip in Swashbuckler for Weapon Finnese means you can reduce your MAD. If you take the Pixie route a further 2 levs of Swashbuckler will give you your Int bonus (and Pixies have a +8 Int stat) as precision damage, making Strength largely irrelevant beyond the 13 needed for Power Attack. Note that the Peirce Magical Concealment from the MageSlayer Tree means the Mages use of concealment to stop precision damage fails.

I'd not recommend the Psychic Warrior route unless your GM is defining Psionics and Magic as completly unrelated. Otherwise your Mageslayer Feat tree makes your psionics useless (the -4 CL will translate to a -4 to the psionic equivalent of CL)

Remember regarding LA + races, that there are rules for buying off the LA at higher levels. It is always worth doing this if the GM allows it.

IIRC a 20 lev Mageslayer build a drew up once was 3 Swashbuckle, 2 Monk, 3 Hexblade (this alows you Wand use) 1 Exotic Weaponmaster, 5 Occult Slayer Pixie +4 adj (I can't remember the last 2 levels. Might've been Fighter for the feats)

Remember the creed of Mageslayers -
"NOTHING that is to the detriment of spellcasters is Cheese!"

Stephen

[JackMage666]

Well, a pixie LA isn't really wanted, as then I'd have only 3 class levels, and, thus, be very, very squishy.

However, I do love the idea of a Hexblade. The build I'm thinking of now is a Karsite Haxblade/Monk, as it'll give me Mettle and Evasion, as well as a good save stat for all three stats. It will make getting into the Occult Slayer PrC more dificult, as well as remove my (weak) favored enemy bonus, but I think I like that build alot better.

[JackMage666]

Scratch that, I just remembered a few things, and I'd go with Rogue instead of Monk. Saves'll be worse, yeah, but more skills and such will prove infinitely more useful, especially because the Occult Slayer needs a signiture weapon (and it can't be fists).

[Stephen_E]

Regarding a signature weapon, you need both reach and adjacent AOO capability.
This means either Spiked Chain, Reach weapon + Spiked Gauntlents or Reach + Unarmed attack,

Frankly, without reach you simply aren't going to be effective.

You also need to have a way of getting past the mooks and getting to the Mages. If you don't take a race with flight you need some other way. Relying on Tumble won't really cut it unless your GM is been VERY kind. The speed loss combined with the probable need to tumble through multiple enemies, means until you can reliably make 30+ checks AND have 60'+ movement you won't really cut it.

Stephen

[melchizedek]

If you aren't too opposed to casting spells yourself, you might go with the Spellthief from Complete Adventurer. Even if you were unwilling to cast the spells yourself, just being able to steal them would be a huge benefit. Unfortunately, if you wanted to take any prestige classes, you'd probably never be able to steal higher level spells. Even so, merely going up high enough to get your +5 BAB (Level 7) would give you a number of very useful abilities against spell casters and the ability to steal up to third level spells.

[brian c]

Feats: You've already mentioned the Mageslayer feat tree, but it is important to remember that if you use the ability to remove AC buffs, it remove AL spells that increase AC in any way, even if the total effect of the spell is no change, so long as any part of the spell increases the AC the spell goes (Righteous Might, Polymorph, Haste, Cats grace, Owls Wisdom if they have Monk levs) and if you can convince your GM by fast talking or another feat that it includes spelllike/supernatural effects you can drop Druids out of Wildshape (I've never seen a Druid Wild shape inot something that didn't increase his Dex, NAC or decrease his size, all of which are AC boosts)

I call shenanigans.

The description of the feat Pierce Magical Protection says (emphasis mine) "If you deal damage to your opponent, you also instantly and automatically dispel all that opponent's spells and spell effects that grant a bonus to Armor Class."

The way it's worded (that grant a bonus) it should only effect spells that directly give a bonus to Armor Class. It will not dispel Cat's Grace, because although the increase in Dex may lead to an increase in AC, the spell itself does not "grant a bonus to Armor Class". Same thing goes for Owl's Wisdom, Polymorph and Wild Shape. Righteous Might and Haste actually say that they increase AC (it's a direct effect of the spell) so there's a bit more leeway with that but you still might run into a DM who wouldn't allow it.

[The Mormegil]

There isn't much to say after what Stephen have said, but watch this:
...
-Hell!- Can't figure out the names of the feats, you'll hav to guess out them.
However: Spiked Chain is a must. There is also a feat that makes you use it as a Special Monk Weapon. Take also the feat that allows you to unbalance foes at +4 and the feat (guess it's called Throw Down) that allows you to get an unbalance check everytime you deal more than 10 damages. You'll need a hundred feats, but in the end you gain this: 1st round- charge. You use your feats and decrease his AC to minimum. Then you use Power Attack and Swashbuckler's ability (remember Int and Str ADD together, they don't replace each other) to deal more than 10 damages (Power atack alone gets you a +10, 'cause you use a two-handed weapon) and kick down the spellcaster. He tries to get up? Unless he has many ranks in Tumble, you have an AoO. Thanks to Combat Reflexes you'll have more than one in each turn, so if h tries again, you kick him down again. He tries to cast pinned? You get an AoO and persuade him to silence. He tries to move away on the floor? You have reach and can move to get by him next round. Every time he grants you an AoO you throw him down and ruin his spell. Funny isn't it?
Remember, anyway, that spellcasters are always more powerful than other classes. Unless you become a spellcaster yourself, you'll have to face Walls of Force and Dimensional Doors many times, and you're not going to make it everytime. Don't get me wrong: Hexblad and Monk classes are going to help, just don't be overconfident.

In the end: you need Ranger, Monk, Hexblade, Swashbuckler, Warrior, Exotic Master and Occult Slayer.
Personally: Ranger 1, Monk 2, Hexblade 3, Swashbuckler 3, Warrior 4, Exotic Master 2 and Occult Slayer 5.
Play a human: the bonus feat is always useful.

Level by level:
Ranger 1 (I guess skill points are welcome)
-Chosen enemy
-Weapon Proficency (spiked chain)
-Mage Slayer
Monk 1
-Unarmed attack
-Stunning fist
-AC bonus
Monk 2
-Special Monk Weapon (Spiked Chain)
-Combat Reflexes
-Evasion
Swashbuckler 1
-Favourite Weapon (Spiked Chain)
Swashbuckler 2
-Grace +1
Swashbuckler 3
-Accurate Hit
-Combat Expertise
Warrior 1
-Improved Unbalance
Next:
Warrior 2
-Throw Down
Occult Slayer 1
-Power Attack
Occult Slayer 2
Occult Slayer 3
Occult Slayer 4
-Ignore Magic Defenses
Occult Slayer 5
Exotic Master 1
-Stunning
Hexblade 1
-Hexblade curse
-Ignore Magic Occultation
Hexblade 2
Hexblade 3
-Mettle
Exotic Master 2
-Exotic Reach
-Jumping Attack

[The Mormegil]

Hey! Another idea!
Why don't you go in struggle?
In CW there's a PrC just for that (Master Wrestler?)
Spellcasters don't have much of a Bab or even Str modifier: plus the PrC I just suggested has a few abilities that need a Fortitude save to avoid being put asleep or even killed!
A few things for that: you don't need monk class to fight unarmed. There is a feat in the Book of Seven Swords that grants you the damages of a monk of a size lower, without losing Bab. If you think Evasion is worth a point of Bab, take 2 levels of monk and 4 levels of Hexlade. Taking the 4th level of Hexblade allows you to take the marbelous feat in CAd that makes you SUM the two classes in order to get AC bonuses. You'll have good saves, good Bab, good Struggle modifier and a few feats left to get Mage Slayer and so on. I do stick to the idea reach is good, but if you like this best:
Monk2 Hexblade4 Wrestler5 and then Warrior, or maybe Justicer (CW) if you like it (Str damages every non-lethal damage attack, Nail special ability).

[marjan]

In CW there's a PrC just for that (Master Wrestler?)

Reaping Mauler.

[SumGuy]

I thought spiked chains couldnt be monk weapons...yeah, SRD says only club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling

[AtomicKitKat]

Don't forget the Knight. If you can knock them down within your 10 foot radius(assuming you use a reach weapon), they'll have to spend their whole turn getting up, difficult terrain(can't 5 foot step out, I think?) and so on. Look for the Tar Baby Knight thread on wizards' CO board.

[Stephen_E]

I thought spiked chains couldnt be monk weapons...yeah, SRD says only club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling

These are the weapons Monks are proficient with, and can Flurry with.
Nothing stops a Monk taking the Exotic Weapon proficincy feat and using a Spiked Chain. As for delivering Stunning attacks via the Spiked Chain. This has nothing to do with been a Monk. The Exotic Weapon Master has a class ability that allow you to use Exotic Weapons to deliver Stunning Attacks, if you have the Stunning Attack feat. While Monks can choose the Stunning Attack as one of their bonus feats, they don't get the ability to deliver said attack with weapons.

Re: AC Bonuses. The feat "automatically dispell all that opponent's spells and spell effects that grant a bonus to Armour Class". Note it does remove "AC Bonuses" which is a specific term, but removes spels/spell effects "that grant a bonus to Armour Class". Because the term "bonus" is not in caps they're referring to ANYTHING that give a positive modifier to your AC, and because the mention "spell effects" it isn't required that the intent of the spell is to give you an AC boost, it's only required that a single effect of the spell increases your AC.

No shenanigans involved.
Besides, remember the motto of the Mage Slayer "NOTHING that is detrimental to spellcasters is cheese!"

One thing I missed for the dedicated Mageslayer.
Take Leadership and get a Beholder Cohort. The Antimagic Eye is a real bonus (remember the motto before responding )

Stephen

[brian c]

He tries to get up? Unless he has many ranks in Tumble, you have an AoO. Thanks to Combat Reflexes you'll have more than one in each turn, so if h tries again, you kick him down again.

This has been discussed before, but when someone is standing up from prone you may not use your AoO to knock them back down; the AoO comes when the character is still prone, and you can't make someone more prone. You get the AoO; whether or not you hit and whether or not you deal damage the action resolves with the character standing up. RAW is very clear about this.

[JackMage666]

I understand that, while nothing is cheese, I don't want my DM to throw me out. As well, I'm not fighting fully optimized casters here, so I don't need to follow up with complete optimization. Spiked Chain use requires another feat, unfortunately, so I'm just going to use the Hexblade proficiency to give me a reach weapon to use, and switch back to being a monk so that I haev a close range weapon. I'm trying to keep the classes down to a reasonable number, and I'm sure my DM would hate me for a 1 lvl dip in any class.

[oddbovine]

The great thing about monks with reach weapons is that you can simultaneously kick a man at short range and stab a man at long range.

[JackMage666]

Never thought of that....

I'll call him - Shanks and Kicks

[Aximili]

Knocking him down with a reach weapon really is your best shot. He can't get away from you without prvoking AoO, and he can't cast defensively.

You still have one big problem, the problem that no melee has been able to get around lately.

Swift spells don't provoke AoO. Which means that, if the fallen mage casts swift invisibility (1st level spell) or just about any quickened retreating spell, he can just DD away or cast that stupid saveless spell (Otto's Irresistible dance, anyone?) that's gonna screw you over.

(Of course, if the game's frendly enough that the enemies don't have such spells in their sleeves, than you're good, and you probably shouldn't worry so much about completely neutralizing spellcasters. Things should be finbe the way they are.)

[PinkysBrain]

No pure melee can interrupt quickened spells, but a psionic gish can with synchronicity.

[Aximili]

Hm...1st level power... Cheap... Effective...

Synchronicity is not a bad idea. Not bad at all.

[Stephen_E]

I beleive you can interrupt Swift cast spells if you have a readied action to hit them if they cast.

But other than that, yes the quickened spells are a Melee Mage Slayers bane.
Depending on how you read the "Peirce Magical Concealment" feat, Invisibility won't let the caster walk away without AOOs, but that still leaves Dimension Door ecetre.

Personally I think they should add a feat to the Mage Slayer tree which allows AOOs on Quickened spells.

Stephen

[Aximili]

Depending on how you read the "Peirce Magical Concealment" feat, Invisibility won't let the caster walk away without AOOs, but that still leaves Dimension Door ecetre.

Yeah, didn't think about that.

Personally I think they should add a feat to the Mage Slayer tree which allows AOOs on Quickened spells.

If one of my players asked for it, I'd certainly allow it.

[PinkysBrain]

Hm...1st level power... Cheap... Effective...

Synchronicity is not a bad idea. Not bad at all.

Well, the concept of synchronicity is using it with quicken or linked power ... manifesting it as a standard action isn't a real benefit over simply readying an action to interrupt a quickened spellcasting.