level 20 monk

[brian c]

I don't play much at higher levels, but for anyone who does: is 63 AC for a level 20 monk considered pretty good? and +30 (or maybe a little more) to hit? Looking through the monster manual at CR20s, the tarrasque could hit that pretty easily but most of the CR20 dragons would need a 19 or 20 to hit that with their attack bonus. As for having +30 attack, that should make it almost an automatic hit for the first attack (first 3 in a flurry) and second and third attacks very accurate as well. I'm at work right now so I don't have details on this build but its pretty straightforward Poverty+Peace, I can post it later if people think those are decent for level 20.

[elliott20]

what's your build?

[Gralamin]

I'm pretty sure bonuses don't stack the way you think they do,

[Quietus]

A poverty+peace monk build can do some pretty awesome things, and typically, you won't need to worry about stacking problems, because everything those two feats give will provide no stacking issues, so long as you aren't including anything in your build that costs more than 1 gold peice.

[brian c]

I'm pretty sure bonuses don't stack the way you think they do,

The Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace AC bonuses all explicitly stack with each other. What I didn't mention actually is that this build involves adding the Saint Template (also from the Book of Exalted Deeds, LA +2 and then use LA buyback rules to still get to level 20). The Saint template gives you your wisdom modifier added to AC and it doesn't mention whether or not that stacks with the Monk class feature; if not then my AC is only 52 I think. I see no reason why it shouldn't stack though, I think it's an untyped bonus but I could be wrong, don't have the book in front of me right now to check.

[brian c]

A poverty+peace monk build can do some pretty awesome things, and typically, you won't need to worry about stacking problems, because everything those two feats give will provide no stacking issues, so long as you aren't including anything in your build that costs more than 1 gold peice.

Actually the limit is 50gp (and non-magical), but let me list my equipment for you:

Pants.


Nothing else necessary. Another thing I was wondering about is, if an ascetic character found a Tome of WIsdom +5 (or whatever stat and whatever enhancement), could they use it? They don't have to wear it or even posess it, and it's entirely possible a character would read a book like that and not even know what it does. I know it would be impossible to craft or buy one as an ascetic, but if you just found it (or a very nice ally crafted it for you) would that be okay? My build doesn't include any of that, so it could be stronger if that were allowed.

[Rahdjan]

A monk's wisdom bonus already adds to his AC, why would a template allow it to add a second time?

[Indon]

A monk's wisdom bonus already adds to his AC, why would a template allow it to add a second time?

Well, I imagine it'd depend on the wording of the abilities.

Two classes which have as a feature "Can add Wisdom modifier to Armor Class", I don't think would stack. But, two classes which have as a feature, "Can add Wisdom modifier to Armor Class as a <type of bonus> bonus" might, depending.

The monk's Wisdom to AC is not a bonus; I doubt it'd stack with a similar ability which does not specify it provides it as a bonus.

To show contrast, monk AC from class levels is an untyped bonus, and would stack with an identically worded ability from another class.

I've never seen the Saint template, but I doubt they're worded so that they would stack.

[Khantalas]

About the book: uh, no. A wizard can't borrow a spellbook just to prepare his spells. You will be reading the book much longer every day to gain its benefits. And it also goes against the intent of the feat.

About the Wisdom bonus: yes, they do stack. They're both bonuses of different types (monk's is untyped, as mentioned above). Though really, all you can do is not die, and do that worse than a monk without VoP. Try killing a few creatures of a close CR with that character. I've been shown that you'll have a really, really hard time hurting that flying creature.

[Ramza00]

Monk is an untyped bonus of wis to ac.
Saint is an insight bonus of wis to ac.
They stack (also note the saint template gives wis to ac even wearing fullplate)

[Ramza00]

Armor Class: A saint gains an insight bonus to AC equal to the character’s Wisdom bonus.

[Ramza00]

Lets see your character sheet please?

[Indon]

About the book: uh, no. A wizard can't borrow a spellbook just to prepare his spells. You will be reading the book much longer every day to gain its benefits. And it also goes against the intent of the feat.

The tomes are one-time use items. If I recall, a character with a Vow of Poverty can still use magical potions provided to him for the express purpose of using them. So it's not quite the same as, say, borrowing a spellbook.

On the other hand, the tomes and manuals are on a much larger scale than, say, a potion of Cure Light Wounds.

[Ramza00]

It takes 48 hours of study (6 days) to read a tome. Most DMs will not allow you to use a tome to give an inherent bonus. Now a friend casting wish 5 times is another matter.

[ravenkith]

You cannot use or own anything with a cost of over 1 gp, no matter what, according to vow of poverty, if you want to keep the benefits you get from it...ever.

[Ramza00]

About the book: uh, no. A wizard can't borrow a spellbook just to prepare his spells. You will be reading the book much longer every day to gain its benefits. And it also goes against the intent of the feat.

About the Wisdom bonus: yes, they do stack. They're both bonuses of different types (monk's is untyped, as mentioned above). Though really, all you can do is not die, and do that worse than a monk without VoP. Try killing a few creatures of a close CR with that character. I've been shown that you'll have a really, really hard time hurting that flying creature.

Take Leadership and get a lvl 17 sorcerer cohort With the right spells being cast on a monk he can become very useful.

[brian c]

The a "maximum AC" build on the WotC forums that uses the Saint and Monk wisdom bonuses, stacking.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=305263

When I'm off of work I'll look up the saint template and make sure that's okay, but no one questioned it on that thread so I'm pretty sure it works.

Lets see your character sheet please?

As I mentioned at first, I'm at work and I don't have the full stats with me right now. I get off at 5, so I'll post it sometime after that.

You cannot use or own anything with a cost of over 1 gp, no matter what, according to vow of poverty, if you want to keep the benefits you get from it...ever.

I don't recall that phrasing of it; I know its a 50gp cap on all your items, and you can't have magic items. You can however have spells cast on you and drink potions, many of which I believe cost more than 1gp. I'll read it when I get home but I don't think you're right, nothing personal.

[PinkysBrain]

Vow of Peace requires really like minded players ... that would never work in my group.

[Khantalas]

A dragon will still fly faster though. And, unlike the monk, a dragon can have Fly-By Attack.

I'm not saying it's bad. My latest character was a Vow of Peace and Poverty Monk / Cleric. Mostly because the game wasn't focused on battle and because of the Diplomacy bonuses I got. And besides, the character was a priest of Ilmater - the feats were built for that character.

[brian c]

Try killing a few creatures of a close CR with that character. I've been shown that you'll have a really, really hard time hurting that flying creature.

Lots and lots of ranks in Jump (and tumble; or is the synergy the other way around?). Agile Athlete, use Dex for Jump and Climb checks? Leap of the Heavens, no running start required and +5 if you have one? Run gives a bonus to jumping too. It's not perfect, and I'm not suggesting this is some sort of ultimate character or that it can beat anything solo, I was just looking at the dragon AC and attack bonus to get an idea of how hard this build would be to hit (and how it does hitting things). Oh, just in cae anyone's wondering about the +30 attack, most of that is from wisdom, Intuitive Attack (Ex) lets you use wis for attack rolls. Very handy for a monk. There aren't really many exalted feats that are good for a monk, so if I actually played this I would hope for a lenient DM to let me take general feats instead of exalted (not combat oriented feats; True Believer and faith feats are ones I like, from Complete Divine)

Edit: I should also note that as a monk, I can and will deal nonlethal damage without penalty, adhering to the Vow of Peace (explicitly states that nonlethal damage is okay).

[PinkysBrain]

Jump DCs go up way too fast.

At high level a monk should be begging for an air walk buff ... even then a dragon is a bit too fast.

[Khantalas]

Still, the thing is flying faster than you move. And has range.

[brian c]

Still, the thing is flying faster than you move. And has range.

And I have dimensioni door 1/day, spell resistance 30, improved evasion... I don't plan on taking a dragon 1-on-1, just looked at them to see how good my AC was compared to CR20 monsters.

Another interesting thing to do with this is to get an Permanent Enlarge person, for the higher jumping size (if that makes sense, how you add height to high jumps) and unarmed damage. That would lower AC a few points, but it might be worth it.

[PinkysBrain]

If you have fly or air walk you can ready action an abundant step as it moves, you get one attack of oppurtunity (it has to keep moving due to it's low maneuverability) to try to stun it :)

[brian c]

Okay, here's the information that I have for this build. I looked up the definition for Vow of Poverty, and it says "you may not use any magic item of any sort, though you may benefit from magic items used on your behalf" The description for a Tome of Understanding from the DMG says that you "read" the book, it does not say that the book is "used". The description of Wondrous Items gives a 68% chance that the item "indicates no special qualities", which I take to mean that a Tome of Understanding just looks like a big book. If my character finds a very large book and wants to take a few days to read it, he shouldn't be punished if it turns out the book was actually a magic item. That's my view anyway, but this build is without any wondrous items used in that way.



human monk saint ECL 20 (monk 20, saint +2 buyback)


starting stats:

14 str
16 dex
14 con
18 wisdom
15 int
14 cha


level advancement: +4 to ability scores (wis, wis, wis, wis)

Ascetic: +8/+6/+4/+2 to abilities (wis, dex, str, int)

Saint: +2 con, +2 wis, +4 cha

modified stats:

str 18 +4
dex 22 +6
con 16 +3
wis 32 +11
int 17 +3
cha 18 +4


speed 90 ft
unarmed damage 2d10 + 9 (flurry 2d10 + 7)
monk AC bonus +4
ascetic AC bonus +10

AC= 63, 57 flatfooted, 51 touch

hp = 8 + 19d8 + 12(before sainthood increases CON) + 52(after) (average 157)

BAB: +15/+10/+5
flurry: +15/+15/+15/+10/+5

attack modifier (wis + exalted strike) = +15 : attacks at +30/+25/+20 or flurry at +30/+30/+30/+25/+20

base saves: fort/ref/will +12/+12/+12

saves: +18/+23/+26

+8 fort vs poison, +4 vs drugs, +4 vs disease/death effects
+2 vs enchantment

Initiative: +10


- (1) sacred vow (+2 to diplomacy checks)
- (1) vow of poverty (ascetic bonuses listed below)
- (3) Lightning Reflexes
- (6) Endurance (+4 to fort to resist nonlethal)
- (9) Diehard (conscious at -1 to -9, partial action)
- (12) Snatch Arrows
- (15) Improved Initiative
- (18) Prone Attack


--bonus exalted feat (1): Intuitive attack (WIS instead of STR for attack rolls) (BoED)
--bonus exalted feat (2): Nimbus of Light (BoED)
--bonus exalted feat (4): Vow of Nonviolence
--bonus exalted feat (6): True Believer (+3 to a save 1/day)
--bonus exalted feat (8): Vow of Peace (BoED)
--bonus exalted feat (10): Holy Radiance
--bonus exalted feat (12): Exalted Spell Resistance (+4 SR vs evil spells)
--bonus exalted feat (14): Vow of Abstinence
--bonus exalted feat (16): Vow of Purity
--bonus exalted feat (18): ??
--bonus exalted feat (20): ??

--peace benefit: calm emotions aura
--peace benefit: +6 AC (2 natural, 2 deflection, 2 exalted)
--peace benefit: +4 diplomacy

-monk bonus feat (1): stunning fist OR improved grapple
-monk bonus feat (2): deflect arrows
-monk bonus feat (6): improved disarm

I haven't listed all the saint and ascetic abilities, i'm too lazy. Also, there aren't many good Exalted feats for monks Probably take something to improve stunning fist, or sanctify ki or some crap like that.

Skills: 4x(4+2) + 4 at first level, 2nd-18th = 17x(6), 19th,20th = 2x(7)
total of 144 skill points.
Max of 23 for a class skill, you can max out 6 skills and have 6 points leftover. Max tumble, jump, climb, balance, diplomacy, escape artist, then the last 6 in knowledge(religion).

Maybe more than that in religion depending how you RP it; in a combat-heavy campaign less diplomacy, maybe take some tricks from complete scoundrel, or learn to speak Celestial.

Just offhand, you'd have 23 ranks + 4 str + 2 (tumble synergy) = +29 to jumps. Your maximum high jump would be 49 feet above your 8ft reach, so you could grab onto something 5 feet up there (and thats without leap of the heavens or skill focus or anything else).

Also, 23 + 6 + 2 = +31 tumble, +31 balance, 23 + 4 + 6 = +33 diplomacy, etc


So, what do you all think? I like this just as a fun and interesting character to play, almost impossible to hurt but at the same time he doesn't want to hurt you.

[silentknight]

I would think that reading a Tome would mean you own it. After it is read, anyone you "borrowed" it from would no longer have a Tome, they would at best have a book of blank pages.

And although it is was just for comparison, wouldn't the Vow of Peace prevent you from attacking a dragon, period.

[TSGames]

Just offhand, you'd have 23 ranks + 4 str + 2 (tumble synergy) = +29 to jumps. Your maximum high jump would be 49 feet above your 8ft reach, so you could grab onto something 5 feet up there (and thats without leap of the heavens or skill focus or anything else).

Don't forget, there's some obscure rule(I'll try to find it again, I think in the MM), that stipulates a +4 bonus to jump for something like every 40ft of speed, which would add another +8. I'll see if I can locate it again.

[PinkysBrain]

A 49 feet high jump has a DC of 196 ...

[Aximili]

Don't forget, there's some obscure rule(I'll try to find it again, I think in the MM), that stipulates a +4 bonus to jump for something like every 40ft of speed, which would add another +8. I'll see if I can locate it again.

Actually, it's not so hidden as much as written in the skill description. And it''s +4/10ft of movement beyond 30ft.

EDIT: High jumping to reach an opponent, however, is completely out of question. He could get around this by having a race with a natural fly speed (Dragonborn, Raptoran, or Aasimar/Tiefling with a feat that gives you wings (it's in one of the FR books)) or by having a permanent airwalk on him.

[brian c]

A 49 feet high jump has a DC of 196 ...

Yeah, sorry, I mixed up my high and long jumps there. Fixed now, and I also adjusted for monk's improved speed. Settled at 26 feet, which is a pretty ridiculous high jump although not enough to catch a dragon in most circumstances.

I would think that reading a Tome would mean you own it. After it is read, anyone you "borrowed" it from would no longer have a Tome, they would at best have a book of blank pages.

I was thinking of it as, say you're adventuring and happen upon an abandoned long-hidden library with thousands and thousands of books on every subject. You would obviously go through the books, right? If you read one that doesn't mean you own it, and if the place is abandoned then there's no one to stop you from spending a week or more reading whatever interesting books you find. Granted this is a rather specific instance to make it work, but I just want to know if by RAW an ascetic character can benefit from a Tome.

And although it is was just for comparison, wouldn't the Vow of Peace prevent you from attacking a dragon, period.

From Book of Exalted Deeds, emphasis mine:

"You must not cause harm to any living creature (constructs and undead not included). You may not deal real damage or ability damage through spells or weapons, though you may deal nonlethal damage."

Remember, monks can choose to deal nonlethal damage with their unarmed strikes with no penalty to attack roll (or damage roll, or anything else).

But while we're talking about Vow of Peace, here are the two biggies, besides the AC bonuses.

Calming aura, 20ft: Any creature within 20 feet must succeed on a DC 24 will save or be affected as if by a calm emotions spell.

When struck by a manufactured weapon (surely does not include natural weapons, is probably also intended not to include magic weapons), the weapon must make a fortitude save DC 24 or shatter, dealing no damage.