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    Default Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Lately, I've been running a superheroes game wherein there is a notable portion of the general public who express discrimination against meta- and transhuman people (like in X-Men). In the last session that I ran, one of the PCs (a very visibly non-baseline human) asked some paramedics to ride in the ambulance with an injured friend to the hospital. The paramedics refused.

    As the GM, roleplaying this really rubbed me the wrong way. It got me thinking that I've never really done that in all my years of gaming - even in settings where prejudice exists, I can't recall ever really digging into it. When it come down to brass tacks, what it really comes down to is that roleplaying bigotry of that kind just isn't fun. It's not like I'm pretending that it doesn't exist in reality, I would just rather that in my escapism it's not something I have to deal with. But it still feels, I don't know... dishonest?

    I'm curious as to how other people deal with this in games where it is or could be relevant. Does anyone here have any stories of steampunk games that openly dealt with racist motivations for colonialism? Or Call of Cthulhu games that have acknowledged the role of misogyny in 1920s culture? Fantasy games that have dug into the racial strife between elves and dwarves? I'm curious to how it was handled (or conspicuously not handled) or how this can be shown in a game without it detracting from the good clean fun we all show up for.

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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    In general, before you introduce discrimination that also takes place in real life - sexism, racism, etc - make sure everyone at the table is comfortable with that. This includes yourself. If there's at least one person who'd rather not deal with that in their pretendy fun games, then don't include it. Do note that this is about settings, not characters - unless someone is really uncomfortable with that, it's okay to have an NPC who looks down on women, for example, as long as it's obvious this guy is a jerk and the PCs are not supposed to like him.

    You can be more lenient with fantastical discrimination - against mutants, or robots, or orcs - and discrimination that doesn't really exist in real life anymore, like nobles looking down on commoners. Here, the default assumption is that the players are comfortable with that, and you don't have to make sure they are. Still, if someone expresses their discomfort, drop it anyway.

    I never really played any games where real life bigotry was a big setting element, but I did play and run a few with fantastical discrimination. The most notable was a Megaman-inspired game where some humans were suspicious and prejudiced against robots. And everyone in the party was a robot.
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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    I can see how someone of strong moral character could have serious trouble doing that sort of thing. Personally, while I find it reprehensible on a moral and intellectual level, I also grew up in small towns in the deep south where it is stunningly common. Consequently I developed more than a little tolerance as a necessity for getting along in society. Thanks to that and, if I do say so myself, some decent acting skill I'm able to set aside my own distaste and portray it with frightening (to me) accuracy.

    Of course, I also play Evil as pretty damn dark and Good as moral exemplars too. The key, IMO, is being able to set aside yourself and lock into your mind "it is the character's beliefs and outlook, not my own." While that's not an acceptable excuse for players being jerks it's a decent rationalization for the DM if, and this is a hell of a big "if," the players are comfortable exploring this darker aspect of the human(oid) condition. If playing a racist (or any other character of reprehensible outlook) makes you or your players too uncomfortable you should feel absolutely free to white-wash that aspect of -any- setting, your own or a published one, completely out of the game.

    Bigotry, rape, murder, arson, and jaywalking are all things that happen, period. That doesn't mean they are things that have to happen in your game.
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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Quote Originally Posted by gom jabbarwocky View Post
    But it still feels, I don't know... dishonest?

    ...I'm curious to how it was handled (or conspicuously not handled) or how this can be shown in a game without it detracting from the good clean fun we all show up for.
    It's just not who you are. I've heard it said that a person's writing, from what they write about to how they write about it, says a lot about the person. I find it not surprising then that a lot of modern fantasy tends to be a veneer of medievalism draped over modern values; the divine right of kings just doesn't register as a thing of importance to most people these days.

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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    One of my previous settings had fantastical discrimination as a major element. Essentially your socio-economic status in the world is roughly related to how purely human you are, where the majority of people in the setting are hybridized to some degree. Most of those braving the frontier in the setting, including some of the PCs, do so because their prospects in the civilized areas of the continent are fairly grim. Some are trying to find their place in the world, others to send money back to their families which depend on them, and still others simply can't stand the air of contempt city life has for them.

    It's interesting to have when the players are into it and can find relevant ways to incorporate it into their character, since discrimination can shape a person's life and their underlying motivations in innumerable ways even when it's not brazen. In fact, on the whole the characters' experience wasn't too dissimilar from a more egalitarian and harmonious setting, but it was always acknowledged that their immediate milieu existed in intentional contrast to the rest of the world and part of why - however inhospitable and dangerous it may be - it should be cherished and defended.

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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Quote Originally Posted by gom jabbarwocky View Post
    I'm curious as to how other people deal with this in games where it is or could be relevant. Does anyone here have any stories of steampunk games that openly dealt with racist motivations for colonialism? Or Call of Cthulhu games that have acknowledged the role of misogyny in 1920s culture? Fantasy games that have dug into the racial strife between elves and dwarves? I'm curious to how it was handled (or conspicuously not handled) or how this can be shown in a game without it detracting from the good clean fun we all show up for.
    I'm gonna talk for a bit about Exalted, a setting where kung-fu heroes beat up gods.

    Despite the "tyrannosaurs in F-14s" meme, the setting's got its fair share of elements that ground it somewhat in human stories. This includes sexism and bigotry, easy violence and fear.

    It's often not even a "white vs. black" kind of bigotry either - usually "black vs. slightly different shade of black" suffices. It's a setting that hasn't had nationalism yet, or one where a thousand years passed since it died. Adjacent city-states erect walls to protect themselves from raiders, and the notion that "we're all Greeks together!" is outright laughable. The satrapies of the great empire at the center of the world don't feel they owe the Realm any loyalty; they pay tribute because the Dragon-Blooded would wipe out their "barbarian" culture should they refuse.

    The default assumption is that when you sit down to play Exalted, you're playing a once-mortal hero, uplifted by the highest of gods, and turned loose in a world where the greatest empires have demonized you for the last two thousand years.

    So, needless to say, there's a lot of xenophobia and racism and sexism going on. But a bunch of pulp-fantasy heroes have just gotten loose in it, and with their might, these god-kings stand in a position to shake things up. Now is a time for change.

    This is the tale of the Exalted - what legends will they tell of your deeds?
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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Quote Originally Posted by gom jabbarwocky View Post
    , what it really comes down to is that roleplaying bigotry of that kind just isn't fun. It's not like I'm pretending that it doesn't exist in reality, I would just rather that in my escapism it's not something I have to deal with. But it still feels, I don't know... dishonest?

    Fantasy games that have dug into the racial strife between elves and dwarves? I'm curious to how it was handled (or conspicuously not handled) or how this can be shown in a game without it detracting from the good clean fun we all show up for.
    All the times. It is a very defining element of my games. And no, I never ask any player what they think about it. It's rare I even tone it down to make someone not-happy.

    So, first off, it's a role playing game. So it's not like checkers, it has role playing in it. And good and evil and a simulated game world. And even more so, there needs to be conflict. So there will be ''bad'' things.

    Second, you need people to understand that they, the real person, should not react at all to things in the game world. The game world is for the characters. A lot of actors do this....read some biographies. It's amazing how you can watch a actor play a role, but then read in reality how against that they really are in real life. Wonder why they even play the role? For fun (and a paycheck). Want a great example: Steven Cobert.

    Third, when a player has a character react to the game world, they should play the character and not play as themselves. Now it's fine if the character shares a view or two, but they should not be a carbon copy of the player. And even if the player is of such an extreme view that they feel they can't even sort of pretend for a second, they can still play it off as something that simply does not effect their character.

    Fourth, you might note it's impossible to have any sort of conflict in a role playing game that does not bother someone. Nothing. Even the classics like ''a kidnapped princess'' or ''a serial killer on the loose''. But it gets kind of odd how some people cherry pick bad things. Killing is ok, but something else is not......and why?

    Fifth, you take the good with the bad. You can't really have good without bad. If good guys defeat bad people that do nothing bad....it's a pointless, hollow victory. You can't have a great good character, unless that character defeats real evil.




    I'm way, way, way over the top on any sort ''bad'' that can be done in games.....but I've never had a person walk out of a game because of it and only a couple complaints from time to time(and, oddly, people are more bothered by the little things like a drow slave taking non lethal damage from a hot iron poker, then things like having a poor soul good mad when his mind is ripped apart.)

    Though I'm a card carrying member of the free pass guild too........

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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single setting where discrimination didn't occur. It's kind of a genre staple for fantasy games. In my experience, having a fantastic, fictional conflict at the center of a setting tends to divert attention from and reduce impact of those conflicts that also occur in real-life. As noted, "Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green."

    That said, I've played games where actual, really existing lines of discrimination were center to the plot. Those tended to primarily be historical or hard sci-fi games (such as Twilight 2000). In such games, I would've been more offended by lack of discrimination, as for those genres the attention to detail trumps all appeals to political correctness. I've had fun playing the daughter of conservative French family in the 17th century.
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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Fourth, you might note it's impossible to have any sort of conflict in a role playing game that does not bother someone. Nothing. Even the classics like ''a kidnapped princess'' or ''a serial killer on the loose''. But it gets kind of odd how some people cherry pick bad things. Killing is ok, but something else is not......and why?
    Because there are people who had unpleasant experiences with stuff like sexual harassment or bigotry, and many of of them would rather not deal with that **** in their fun escapist games. Is it that hard to understand? You're lucky enough that your group is comfortable with everything you throw at them (except those few complaints you mentioned - did you listen to them and stop putting such things in your game, or did you decide "**** it, I'll do what I want, the players should toughen up"?), but not all players are.

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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    I can see how someone of strong moral character could have serious trouble doing that sort of thing.[snip]
    I'm sorry, but what? It's not real, it's make belief, what does real world morality have to do with make belief? Is it evil to draw a picture of murder? Is it evil to depict murder in a movie or book? Is it evil to have murder in an RPG?
    Evil in the same way that murder is evil in reality that is. Thinking it is not evil in the same way as doing it.

    You can think it's not fun all you want, that's your prerogative, but it's not immoral to depict immoral things in an RPG.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu_temp View Post
    Because there are people who had unpleasant experiences with stuff like sexual harassment or bigotry, and many of of them would rather not deal with that **** in their fun escapist games. Is it that hard to understand?
    This is a point that's been brought up in multiple previous threads, and yes, it IS hard to undertand in addition to coming off as being a stick in the mud.

    Why? It has to do with nature of humor. Jedipotter is, for once, completely right. In order for there to be comedy, in order for there to be any sort of fun or interesting story, there needs to be that tinge of discomfort. The humor emerges from realizing the barb is said with good intent - in other words, the sayer is "not really meaning it".

    Well. The premise of RPGs is that you're a) doing it with your friends and b) it's a game, hence from the get-go "not real". The barb is aimed by fictional people at other fictional people in order to drive a story - this is the default assumption.

    There's also the fact that humor is a coping mechanism. Plenty of people with unpleasant experiences make fun of said experiences via, say, RPGs, to make their own existence more tolerable. So when someone goes "I'd rather not deal with that" or worse, throws a hissy-fit, it's majorly awkward for everyone else involved. It robs everyone else of the potential catharhic experience.
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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Quote Originally Posted by gom jabbarwocky View Post
    Lately, I've been running a superheroes game wherein there is a notable portion of the general public who express discrimination against meta- and transhuman people (like in X-Men). In the last session that I ran, one of the PCs (a very visibly non-baseline human) asked some paramedics to ride in the ambulance with an injured friend to the hospital. The paramedics refused.

    As the GM, roleplaying this really rubbed me the wrong way. It got me thinking that I've never really done that in all my years of gaming - even in settings where prejudice exists, I can't recall ever really digging into it. When it come down to brass tacks, what it really comes down to is that roleplaying bigotry of that kind just isn't fun. It's not like I'm pretending that it doesn't exist in reality, I would just rather that in my escapism it's not something I have to deal with. But it still feels, I don't know... dishonest?

    I'm curious as to how other people deal with this in games where it is or could be relevant. Does anyone here have any stories of steampunk games that openly dealt with racist motivations for colonialism? Or Call of Cthulhu games that have acknowledged the role of misogyny in 1920s culture? Fantasy games that have dug into the racial strife between elves and dwarves? I'm curious to how it was handled (or conspicuously not handled) or how this can be shown in a game without it detracting from the good clean fun we all show up for.

    I make very strong distinctions between fantasy bigotry (which can be fun) and real-life bigotry (which is not fun).

    Discrimination of nonhumans? Absolutely okay, and a nice opportunity to explore how real-life racism works without really replicating it. Also, it can be fun, if it is far enough removed from real life.

    On the other hand, I have no desire whatsoever to roleplay a victim of misogyny. I AM already victimized by misogyny in real life. It is not escapism if it reminds me of real life. Also, even kicking the asses of bigots ingame gets old very soon, when the bigotry is realistic, because in that case you can't win. (Unless you roleplay a revolution, that is.)

    I once had a GM who didn't get that roleplaying bigotry is not fun, and tried to insert misogyny into a setting where it had no place, and finally railroaded our characters into the part of the setting where misogyny did exist in that setting. Needless to say, I was not amused.

    If you want to use discrimination as a setting element, ask the players. All of them, and preferably via separate e-mail, so that no one ever knows who the "spoilsport" was ... although in a group with only one woman, it may be kind of obvious who voted against the sexism. Still.

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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Fourth, you might note it's impossible to have any sort of conflict in a role playing game that does not bother someone.
    If, and only if, you don't talk about exactly these sorts of issues with the players beforehand. As it so happens, if you know what your players' triggers are, it's pretty damned easy to avoid setting them off.

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    But it gets kind of odd how some people cherry pick bad things. Killing is ok, but something else is not......and why?
    They probably had it happen. One's opinion on something can very well change after experiencing it oneself. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but am I accurate in presuming that in your life, your experience in being the direct victim of sexual assaults, domestic abuse, kidnappings, grievous injuries, robberies/muggings, et cetera., is minimal?

    To whit, "you just had to be there."
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2014-12-19 at 11:05 AM.
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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Racism is a pretty big element in Hackmaster; two of the races (half-orcs and half-hobgoblins) are pretty discriminated against in civilized areas, and another (grel) only avoid it because they can be mistaken for elves or half-elves.
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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Escapism can mean different things to different people. One female might want to avoid the topic of sexism altogether, another woman might want to be a powerful warrior who easily beats up any lechers. Again, ask the players individually first.

    I wouldn't mind seeing discrimination done to NPCs as flavor, such as watching an dwarf get made fun of by elves, or a sprite getting bullied by a larger race. The real problem would be having it done to PCs, and restricting what they can or cannot do.

    If racism is to affect the PCs significantly, it would have to be written well, to pose a good challenge to the players. However, if done badly, it could be too difficult and convulted, making the PC feel as if he* was getting railroaded hard. Also applies to sexism, of course.

    *'He' refers to males, females, sexless, etc, and is not meant to be sexual discrimination.

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    Ehhh, I think it's less that some players can handle ____ as a setting element and others can't, and more that some GM's can make ____ as a setting element tasteful and others can't.
    It always amazes me how often people on forums would rather accuse you of misreading their posts with malice than re-explain their ideas with clarity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    I'm sorry, but what? It's not real, it's make belief, what does real world morality have to do with make belief? Is it evil to draw a picture of murder? Is it evil to depict murder in a movie or book? Is it evil to have murder in an RPG?
    Evil in the same way that murder is evil in reality that is. Thinking it is not evil in the same way as doing it.

    You can think it's not fun all you want, that's your prerogative, but it's not immoral to depict immoral things in an RPG.
    Good thing I didn't say there was anything immoral about portraying racism in fantasy.

    Racism, however, is immoral on a fundamental level and it's not difficult to empathize with someone being uncomfortable with portraying an outlook they find detestable. The fact that it's racism between pointy ears and green skins can mitigate that for some people and the fact that those racial stereotypes are often accurate helps even more but it's -still- racism. It's judging another intelligent being based entirely on outward appearance that hit has no control over.

    It's perfectly understandable how someone could have a problem with that even if you or I don't.
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    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Chambers; 2014-12-19 at 10:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitruviansquid View Post
    Ehhh, I think it's less that some players can handle ____ as a setting element and others can't, and more that some GM's can make ____ as a setting element tasteful and others can't.
    This, although part of "making it tasteful" is knowing how far you can go without crossing the line, which varies from player to player so the two factors do in fact have an important overlap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    But that is like saying Guardians of the Galaxy was a raciest movie. Ronain sure hated Xandar. The Ravagers are always joking about eating just Peter the only human. No one treats Rocket very well through out 2/3's of the movie.

    Or going back to Lord of the Rings is raciest.
    I haven't seen guardians of the galaxy but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see huge amounts of fantastic racism. Lord of the rings certainly had it in spades.

    That doesn't make them racist movies. It -does- mean that a number of otherwise good characters had a character flaw common amongst their settings. I've known a number of people that were decent men and women that had this particular character flaw. Hell, I'm related to a few of them. That doesn't make racism any more morally acceptable.

    The difference between a racist work, a work that has racism as a central theme, and a work that features racism is in how it is portrayed and whether the characters examine it, laud it, or simply accept it. In lord of the rings and, I'll hazard a guess here, guardians of the galaxy, the racism is there but glossed over, at least for the most part, and accepted for being fantastic racism instead of racism more easily related. The characters make a racist comment or two and then it's ignored by just about everyone in the story, or maybe one character has a minor side dialogue or monologue to expand their characterization and relatability to the audience.

    It's much less instinctive to put yourself in the frame of reference of a little racoon dude or an elf than a human of your own ethnicity. As for the racism leveled at the one human character in gaurdians, most people simply write it off as "They're monsters that don't exist. Who cares."

    You want a work that has racism, amongst other things, as a theme, check out Roots. For a racist work, albeit tongue-in-cheek racism, check out Don't be a Menace..., featuring the Wayans brothers. There are too many works with racism in them, but without highlighting it, to even try to name.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    I've recently has the opposite experience. I started a game in which all characters started from the same village. One player wanted to play a half-elf that had been born to an unwed mother after she went out in the woods alone, and the PC grew up ostracized by everyone, especially the village priest. I kept trying to tell him that I already know about the priest, and he isn't evil, but I never really got through. Eventually, I told him that his grandfather kept him away from the priest, and told him the priest hated him.

    Many episodes later, he still believes that the priest was discriminatory.

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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    The difficult thing about including discrimination as a setting element is that its hard to make it feel nuanced. You usually end up with the 'elves and dwarves tease each-other' style, the 'goblins are Always Evil so its okay to kill them on sight' style, or the 'everyone who isn't a PC is a racist idiot' style. As far as immersion, none of those are really going to make the players feel and understand what it's like to come from and live in a society where a particular kind of racism is just taken for granted. So it doesn't actually end up making the game more subtle or nuanced or realistic, it just ends up being a bit of a cliche.

    If you really wanted to do it right - that is, do something that really immerses players in a setting with real discrimination - you'd have to figure out a way to present things so that the players themselves are induced to develop a particular discriminatory outlook without realizing at all that that's what it is. The racists in the setting aren't going to be thinking to themselves 'gee, we're really racist jerks', they're going to be thinking 'That time last spring when three of our kids disappeared, there was a caravan of Silverhairs passing through town.' or 'Those Koryar-folk can absorb a fraction of the remaining years from anyone around them who dies before their time. I heard that one of them killed a bunch of kids down in Tradesport so he could extend his own life.', or they're going to treat 'the holy book says that those who live beneath the earth are evil' at the same level as 'the holy book says that demons are bad', and things like that.

    Out of the three sort of cliche forms, the 'goblins are Always Evil' one is the closest to that if you just tweak it to 'goblins are Always Evil... except when they're not'. But players are going to be very used to that as a cliche (Drizzt, paladins falling for killing goblin children, etc) so it's going to have almost no impact - it's too easily spotted and players are just too used to it. Even if you make there be some demon who is actually a good person, and the whole 'lower planes are evil' is just a giant racist lie, its just going to feel sort of forced because it's too familiar.

    Instead, you'd have to do something a lot more subtle - you have to create the underlying reasons for the origins of discrimination in the game, without ever giving them name or stating them directly. Fear of the unknown, fear of the 'other', shifting alliances leading to people looking for commonalities to cling to, behavioral assumptions that are built into a society but which the 'others' society doesn't follow, etc. And a good dose of ignorance and misinformation.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Have to admit I have run some fairly "mature" campaigns, but I have never really thought about introducing discrimination no.. except in it's more cliche flavors. I guess it is one of those uncomfortable aspects you tend to avoid maybe without realizing it.

    Still, I think as a storyteller it is always good to remember that the best story isn't always the story people want to hear; Anne Frank being a classic example.

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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Good thing I didn't say there was anything immoral about portraying racism in fantasy.

    Racism, however, is immoral on a fundamental level and it's not difficult to empathize with someone being uncomfortable with portraying an outlook they find detestable. The fact that it's racism between pointy ears and green skins can mitigate that for some people and the fact that those racial stereotypes are often accurate helps even more but it's -still- racism. It's judging another intelligent being based entirely on outward appearance that hit has no control over.

    It's perfectly understandable how someone could have a problem with that even if you or I don't.
    Perhaps in the same way that someone who has lost their loved ones in a car accident would have a problem with playing GTA, but that's personal reasons, not because of a "strong moral character". It's because you're still dealing with that pain. Same for discrimination.
    Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal

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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Quote Originally Posted by NichG View Post
    If you really wanted to do it right - that is, do something that really immerses players in a setting with real discrimination - you'd have to figure out a way to present things so that the players themselves are induced to develop a particular discriminatory outlook without realizing at all that that's what it is.
    Sadly, I don't think it's a real challenge to make players develop a discriminatory outlook. I am a bit pessimistic there.

    Try to create a setting where humans, or straight white dudes are discriminated against, and wait for them to realize what it is. I think there is more of a learning experience in that.

    @Mastikator: The difference being that more than half of the population in my country have experienced discrimination, and for the US, the numbers are even higher, so it is not as personal, strictly speaking, like having lost someone in a car accident.
    And not wanting to include discrimination as GM who has not personally experienced negative discrimination is more like not wanting to play GTA against a person whose loved ones you caused to die in a car accident, even if only indirectly, for example by investing in the car company who produced the faulty seatbelts. It can have something to do with a strong moral character. (Of course, you could just belong to the majority or minority that is discriminated against in the setting. Which have less to do with morals, and more with a healthy sense of self-preservation.)
    Last edited by Themrys; 2014-12-19 at 07:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    This is a point that's been brought up in multiple previous threads, and yes, it IS hard to undertand in addition to coming off as being a stick in the mud.

    Why? It has to do with nature of humor. Jedipotter is, for once, completely right. In order for there to be comedy, in order for there to be any sort of fun or interesting story, there needs to be that tinge of discomfort. The humor emerges from realizing the barb is said with good intent - in other words, the sayer is "not really meaning it".

    Well. The premise of RPGs is that you're a) doing it with your friends and b) it's a game, hence from the get-go "not real". The barb is aimed by fictional people at other fictional people in order to drive a story - this is the default assumption.

    There's also the fact that humor is a coping mechanism. Plenty of people with unpleasant experiences make fun of said experiences via, say, RPGs, to make their own existence more tolerable. So when someone goes "I'd rather not deal with that" or worse, throws a hissy-fit, it's majorly awkward for everyone else involved. It robs everyone else of the potential catharhic experience.
    Meh. Excuse. Sorry, but when one of your players asks you not to have sexism/racism/etc in the game, because it makes them uncomfortable, in almost every case any response other than "sure, that won't happen again, sorry about that" is being a jerk.

    Also, in that last paragraph, are you really advocating the "if something in the game makes you uncomfortable, just sit there and suck it up so you won't make things awkward for everyone else" stance? Because that's really, really bad advice, man. That's pretty much the opposite of what you're suppose to do. Don't throw a fit, stay polite, but don't sit there and be quiet about something that bothers you, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    This is why I have a fairly strict vetting process for people to join my game. I can spot people that have had ''unpleasant experiences'' and simply not have them join my game.
    That's such a bizarre reason to ban someone from joining your game that I'd have a few harsh words about it, but I get the feeling you're doing these people a favour.

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu_temp View Post
    That's such a bizarre reason to ban someone from joining your game that I'd have a few harsh words about it, but I get the feeling you're doing these people a favour.
    What is even more amazing.....by just saying ''My game does not use the Tome of Battle'', has the people that have something, to simply ban themselves. It's a win win.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    {Scrubbed}
    Are you saying that people who have had bad experience in their life simply CHOSE them? That because of life choices they have made, they encountered those and otherwise they would have surely avoided them?

    You should be ashamed of yourself.

    No, really. I mean it. You should be ashamed of your post in particular and your naively offensive stance on existence in general.

    You have lived a lucky life of not having to be on the receiving end of anything horrible, and you call that luck being smart and making good choices. I call bull****, good sir. Bull****. It was just that, luck. You didn't choose crap. You were just lucky. You think people who are mugged or harassed CHOSE to be?

    Go to someone who suffered from discrimination, racism, sexism, go to a rape survivor or someone who was mugged or forced into prostitution. Tell them that you believe their circumstances were just a result of bad decisions they've made in life. Come on, do it. And then tell me what their response was.
    Last edited by Chambers; 2014-12-19 at 10:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu_temp View Post
    That's such a bizarre reason to ban someone from joining your game that I'd have a few harsh words about it, but I get the feeling you're doing these people a favour.
    I'm actually with jedipotter on this one. If there's a specific sort of game you want to run, by all means tell potential players that if they have a problem with it then their best recourse is to not join. Sure it can come off as insensitive when the sticking point is a contentious theme of some sort and their problem with it is personal in nature, but there's other games out there they'll probably have a much better time in anyways.
    Last edited by Sith_Happens; 2014-12-19 at 07:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Discrimination as a Setting Element

    Perhaps not entirely relevant to the OP's central point, but I don't think the ambulance car situation was a very good example of racism. Maybe it's different in some places, but where I live - in real life -, no friend or family member can travel in the ambulance car, full stop. Which makes perfect sense: an extra traveller would just get in the way inside an already crowded compartment and quite possibly actively harm the situation if they freak out if and when the patient's condition takes a turn for the worse.

    So, realistically, whether the PC was visibly a mutant or not should be completely irrelevant.
    "I had thought - I had been told - that a 'funny' thing is a thing of goodness. It isn't. Not ever is it funny to the person it happens to. Like that sheriff without his pants. The goodness is in the laughing. I grok it is a bravery... and a sharing... against pain and sorrow and defeat."

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