Pimp my Bard

[Roland St. Jude]

Could someone please give me some advice on optimizing my newest character? He's a Wererat Bard named Lirpa Loof. I picture him as a sort of angst-ridden songwriter who inspires others with his moody lyrics and hard jams on the mandolin. I can make him ECL 8 and use any WotC material

My rolls are 18, 14, 12, 14, 11, 9.

I was thinking
STR 9
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 11
WIS 12
CHA 18

And for feats:
Weapon Finesse
Power Attack
Shock Trooper
Eschew Materials
Karmic Spike

I'll max out Perform (mandolin) and Diplomacy, Bluff, etc. Do I need a seperate Perform (lyrics)?

What would be some better choices here? I don't make bards much.

[AmberVael]

You don't need perform lyrics, persay, to use your mandolin, but if you want him to sing and play, then he will need it.
Mechanically it becomes handy in situations where you loose or leave behind your instrument. Can't loose your voicebox too easily.

[Bears With Lasers]

You have no need for Eschew Materials.

Power Attack/Shock Trooper (which requires Improved Bullrush, by the way)/Karmic Strike go with a two-handed weapon, *not* weapon finesse.
They also


What do you want to do? Your feats imply melee, but, you're, well, a bard. Dipping Paladin (of Freedom) wouldn't suit you; without a lot of CHA synergy, you won't be a good melee type. I suggest focusing on Inspire Courage: get Song of the Heart (ECS; you can trade in one of your kinds of bardic music for it if you'd like), Words of Creation (BoED), the Inspirational Boost spell from the Spell Compendium. You can then pick up archery--or melee if you absolutely must.

[storybookknight]

You actually need a 13 strength to even qualify for Power Attack. You currently have a 9.

As to optimization: What is he being optimized for?

[Zincorium]

Um, power attack really seems like it will get very little use, since your BAB is going to be pretty pitiful between the bard levels and LA, so I'd wonder if something like Arcane Strike wouldn't be a much better bet for additional damage, since if you're in melee combat saving spells would not be your biggest concern. Also, and this is a big deal, you don't have the prerequisites for Power attack (13 str) and Shock Trooper (several additional feats), and thus couldn't have either of those without rearranging things, and it is just plain not worth it.

Weapon finesse is sound, as it reduces the need for strength, but you're going to be a mediocre melee combatant as it is, Snowflake Wardance from Frostburn will give you some bonuses for wielding a one handed weapon so that you aren't sucking too badly, but since you're a spellcasting and support character ranged attacks are going to be a better bet.

Eschew materials is essentially saving 5 gold, because that's what a spell component pouch costs and it does the exact same thing. The only time eschew components has more value is if you are in the habit of getting all your gold and equipment stolen. Pick another feat and you'll get a lot more out of it.

Perform (sing) is almost always going to be a better choice than Perform (stringed instruments) because you can justifiably use it while wielding a sword or bow in combat, and you don't want to smash your precious lute using it as an improvised weapon. Get both if you've got the skill points and like the flavor.

[Townopolis]

If you want to attack things effectively as a bard I advise the following. You will do 0 damage but help out a lot, which is what bards do.

Bards, like rogues, start out with proficiency in 1 exotic weapon. This means that there is 1 weapon you can use that your fighters can't without using a feat.

Meet the bard of weapons, the whip.

Whip deals pitiful damage, and can't damage opponents with armor on, furthermore, you provoke AoOs and can't make AoOs of your own. What makes it worthwhile is the ability to trip and disarm (witha +2 bonus) anyone within 15' of you. Move one of those 14s to Int and take Expertise, Improved Disarm, and Improved Trip.

Spend you life happily tripping & disarming your opponents. Your fighters will love beating on prone opponents and your spellcasters will thank you for keeping those longbows out of those orcish archers' hands.

[Bears With Lasers]

That's a terrible idea. With that strength he'll never trip anyone. With his low attack rolls, he's not very likely to disarm anyone, either.

[Solo]

Maybe he should focus on buffing his allies or something?

Pumping diplomacy until the game stinks of cheese is also a strategy.

[Jannex]

My first thought is, if it's at all in keeping with the character concept, you'll want a higher Int--even if it's just switching it with the 12 you have in Wisdom; one of the Bard's strengths is his skill points, and I figure you may as well make the most of that. Of course, feel free to take that advice with a grain of salt; I tend to be a huge skillmonkey. It comes from starting out in White Wolf, I think.

For your feats, other people have already pointed out that Str 9 and a smashy-smash Power-Attacking fighting style don't really mesh. I'd go either for archery, or Dex-combat. In the latter case, I find that the Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack feat tree is utterly wonderful. Your BAB won't be so impressive that your iterative attacks will be terribly useful, even when you get them, so you're probably best off getting your single stab in, and then getting out of range again. Maxing out Tumble is a good way to go, if you take that route.

Eschew Materials often ends up as more of a flavor feat than a practical one, but you know your DM better than we do; if there's any likelihood that your belongings might have a habit of being taken from you or otherwise disappearing during the course of your adventures, Eschew Materials isn't a bad insurance policy. In a similar vein, having decent ranks in Perform (vocals) or the equivalent is a good insurance policy against being separated from your stuff. It helps if your character needs to have a hand free, as well--but the mandolin fits your character, so if you've got the skill points available, keep that up as well.

Ultimately, what I'd do is put the 12 into Con (it's still a bonus, if not as much, and the idea here is not to get hit in the first place, rather than soaking damage), put that 14 into Int, and slide the 11 into Wis. You'll get two more skill points a level, and be able to take Combat Expertise (which falls in line with the idea of Not Getting Hit, and opens up options like Improved Feint, which, with your maxxed Bluff, is a good option if you end up cornered). Wisdom isn't key for a Bard, and there's little roleplay difference between an 11 and a 12. You'll still have a decent Will save, and you don't want to find yourself in the position of making Fort saves, regardless. Those are my suggestions.

[Townopolis]

Trip spellcasters, disarm archers (they get a -4 if the item isn't a melee weapon). If he really wanted to be effective though, you're right, the strength would need to go up.

[Townopolis]

But in all honesty, I agree with Solo. Do the normal bard skill dance, learn a bunch of (if not all) languages, and take feats to boost your skillmonkeying and buffing.

Negotiator
Extra Music

[brian c]

For your feats, other people have already pointed out that Str 9 and a smashy-smash Power-Attacking fighting style don't really mesh.

Aren't allowed to mesh, by RAW, so you're right in saying that's straight out. If you want to play a melee lycanthrope, honestly Bard isn't a very good class to do it with. I'd say do this as a fighter instead, or give up the damaging business and just be a support/buff/skillmonkey. You could do the whip route, but as a bard you'll have fairly low attack rolls, even with weapon finesse.

[PinkysBrain]

What would be some better choices here?

Don't make a lycanthrope at ECL8 and never make a lycanthrope as anything except a highly focused melee character (it's a high LA template and not a great one at that, any character with it needs focus to not end up a gimp).

BTW, since you only have 5 HD you only have 3 feats (assuming you are human) and 2 bonus feats from the lycanthropy (weapon finesse and iron will).

[Townopolis]

Actually, as BWL pointed out, a whipmeister would want to have high STR rather than high DEX for the purpose of trip attempts. Also, it would allow you to wear a chain shirt and a little gear without going into a medium load and slowing down.

[Jannex]

Actually, as BWL pointed out, a whipmeister would want to have high STR rather than high DEX for the purpose of trip attempts. Also, it would allow you to wear a chain shirt and a little gear without going into a medium load and slowing down.

Mithral halves the weight of armor. And why you would ever wear a chain shirt that wasn't made of mithral is utterly beyond me.

[argentsaber]

Could someone please give me some advice on optimizing my newest character? He's a Wererat Bard named Lirpa Loof. I picture him as a sort of angst-ridden songwriter who inspires others with his moody lyrics and hard jams on the mandolin. I can make him ECL 8 and use any WotC material

My rolls are 18, 14, 12, 14, 11, 9.

I was thinking
STR 9
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 11
WIS 12
CHA 18

And for feats:
Weapon Finesse
Power Attack
Shock Trooper
Eschew Materials
Karmic Spike

I'll max out Perform (mandolin) and Diplomacy, Bluff, etc. Do I need a seperate Perform (lyrics)?

What would be some better choices here? I don't make bards much.

your intelligence will throw you out of any kind of skill monkey role, jsut as your strength will toss you out of melee... leaving casting. you can be a heck of a caster with the Sublime Chord class (complete arcane p60-62). if you have a generous DM, a trip down the Ultimate Magus (Complete Mage) could possibly affect both your bard and sublime chord spells by using the Arcane Preperation feat. You could also consider adding a one level dip into Dragon Slayer and taking the first level of Eldrich Knight or Knight Phantom before entering Sublime Chord (for 2 levels, then back into which ever knight class you took for 8 more) to give you a full casting character with a pretty high (17 i believe) BAB. like an old school Fighter/MU but with way more style. If you go this route, I suggest the feat Battle Caster considering your dex.

PS: you should definately try to get your DM to allow you to use the ECL buyoff from unearthed arcana. This will aid you considerably as you progress.

Good Luck

[greenknight]

Could someone please give me some advice on optimizing my newest character?

....

What would be some better choices here? I don't make bards much.

I see this Bard as more of a practical joker, so maybe you could give the character Perform (Comedy), and use spells like Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Maybe even dress him up in the traditional Fool's gear as the Jester. Bards are pretty good at being dismissed as a joke, after all, so that would be playing to the class strengths.

[ocato]

I'm going to agree with the general consensus. If I were to apply those numbers, they would probably be STR 9 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 11 Cha 18. You're a bard, skills are your friend. Use Magic Device is fun and useful depending on your DM. I know my DM sprinkles wands and scrolls on us almost every time we kill an evil wizard. An evil wizard who didn't expect our wizard to counterspell him while I plug him with that lightning bolt wand.
A good feat that I personally like, but isn't terribly popular on these boards is Varied Performer. You choose 1 kind of Perform and pretty much apply it to a different kind per int modifier, so in the case of 14 int, 2 more. So you rank up Perform (Stringed) and then you get Perform (Vocal) and another that suits you. I like Perform (dance). On top of that, any time you use two together, you get a +2. So any time you sing and dance or sing and play, you get a nifty +2. This is a good way to save skill points in "oh noes I lost my mandolin" moments and a nice little +2 to fascinate and other performances. As for fighting, I'd also agree with the archery concept. My bard started with a little more strength so I went rapier goodness because I liked the idea. But you can still do that, just throw your +1 at L4 into STR to break even. The tripping idea isn't bad but honestly I just use Hideous Laughter or whatever other spell that pretty much works the same. Yes you are limited on spells but it saves a couple whip improvement feats. I also adore Combat Expertise for those cornered moments and Spell Focus (Enchantment) is lovely. Weapon Finesse would be a must for a medium dex low strength rapier bard but the wererat gets it automatically I think someone said. I readily admit I don't know what Shock Trooper, Karmic Spike, or the two Bears said (Words of Creation and Song of heart) because I'm a low to medium amount of books kind of guy. Pretty much you have to realize that bards are really cool, but we're not going to kick in the door with our battle axes and slash people to ribbons. We're standing behind that guy casting haste and good hope on him and laughing at the poor shmucks that are ribbons.

[Leon]

Mithral halves the weight of armor. And why you would ever wear a chain shirt that wasn't made of mithral is utterly beyond me.

Becuase it was made of Obdurium

[PhoeKun]

I don't know what you guys are going on about. Roland's build seems perfectly legal and viable to me.

I mean, if I was going to make a Bard today, that's pretty much how I'd want him to look...

[Jannex]

A good feat that I personally like, but isn't terribly popular on these boards is Varied Performer.

Oooh, good call. And Perform (dance) isn't a bad choice, especially if there's any chance of Shadowdancer in the character's future. And, y'know, I'm not seeing any reason there shouldn't be.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't know what you guys are going on about. Roland's build seems perfectly [u]legal[/u and viable to me.

I mean, if I was going to make a Bard today, that's pretty much how I'd want him to look...

Legal = no. Power Attack has a prerequisite of Str 13, and he's got a 9.

Viable = Other people above have said it better. The stats don't really mesh with a dedicated melee fighter, and the lycanthropy is a rather serious nail in the foot. As-is, this wouldn't be a terribly effective character in combat...he only gets 4 levels of Bard (5 if he's Afflicted Lycan, and that's a horrible choice), so his music won't be very powerful. All he can really do in melee in finesse, and the subpar BAB from the 3/4 bard progression and the lost LA is painful. Bards are designed in a support role, to improve the party as a group, which this will find hard to do ATM.

[redwood]

I like how you've stat'ed Lirpa Loof. Since you've got a high Charisma, you should choose were-squirrel instead of -rat because they're cuter. Then you can easily charm your way to the BBEG and suprise him with a Power Attack bite while he's feeding you seeds and popcorn. If you've got multiple attacks, you should bite off both his thumbs so he can't weild any weapons. Figure out his primary hand and attack the thumb on that hand first.

Oh yeah, you'll definitely want Perform (Lyrics) so you can make cute squirrely noises.

I played a character with the very same name last year. Sadly he was really an intelligent illusion and was killed when one of the other PCs said something like "I can't believe you." after I told a rather corny joke. Oh well, maybe I'll think of something to top your bard next year.

R

[PhoeKun]

Legal = no. Power Attack has a prerequisite of Str 13, and he's got a 9.

Viable = Other people above have said it better. The stats don't really mesh with a dedicated melee fighter, and the lycanthropy is a rather serious nail in the foot. As-is, this wouldn't be a terribly effective character in combat...he only gets 4 levels of Bard (5 if he's Afflicted Lycan, and that's a horrible choice), so his music won't be very powerful. All he can really do in melee in finesse, and the subpar BAB from the 3/4 bard progression and the lost LA is painful. Bards are designed in a support role, to improve the party as a group, which this will find hard to do ATM.

I don't know about that. Bards seem designed to be a Joke class, if you ask me.

Maybe my opinion on the subject will change tomorrow. I'd have to give it some thought...

[The Glyphstone]

I don't know about that. Bards seem designed to be a Joke class, if you ask me.

Maybe my opinion on the subject will change tomorrow. I'd have to give it some thought...

Well, that's what I think they were designed to be. I didn't say the design worked...

[Roland St. Jude]

Well, that's why I asked! Something about the build didn't seem quite right to me. I mean fun, but not quite right. So thanks for your help and keep those ideas coming!

So I could do this:

STR 14
DEX 12
CON 11
INT 14
WIS 9
CHA 18

And for feats:
Improved Sunder
Power Attack
Shock Trooper
Varied Performer (you know so I can sing and dance and joke)

Maybe take some cool weapon like a glaive (remember that movie Krull!)

[Annarrkkii]

Hmm... on the diplomacy front, you're not as useful as a full bard could be, since you've totally wasted 3 LAs worth of skill points and the like, since your lycanthropic benefits are greatest in hybrid and animal form, but those forms are useless for diplomacy and the like. Functioning as an ECL 5 character outside of combat, and ECL 8 in combat is only a marginally good idea, but if that's your flavor, then go with it.

You'd have to burn a proficiency feat to get a glaive, and you're already over your feat limit, so it may not be a great idea to try and expand proficiency. You're also gonna need Improved Bullrush for Shock Trooper, which is a subpar feat for a bard, anyway. Wererats have Dex bonuses, so the original Weapon Finesse plan might be a better bet, sticking to a weapon like the rapier, even as conventional as it is. There's a reason bards are usually stuck with certain roles and weapons—because they work.

As an eternal advocate of the joys and versatility of ToB, I would propose a Wererat Bard 4/Warblade 1, as the Warblade dip would allow up to level 2 maneuvers, and allow you to grab a few nice White Raven maneuvers and stances, and maybe even a Stone Dragon, Iron Heart, or Diamond Mind strike to give you a little more tanking versatility.

[Rama_Lei]

Sounds good. Though you may want to consider switching Con and
dex, since your hybrid form gives a nifty DR 10

[brian c]

I don't know what you guys are going on about. Roland's build seems perfectly legal and viable to me.

I mean, if I was going to make a Bard today, that's pretty much how I'd want him to look...

Power attack has a prereq of 13 strength, which he doesn't have. Karmic Strike has prereq Dodge and Combat Expertise (I don't think Karmic Spike is a feat, so I assume thats what he meant). Shock Trooper requires Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush.

[Merlin the Tuna]

That's a terrible idea. With that strength he'll never trip anyone. With his low attack rolls, he's not very likely to disarm anyone, either.

Disarming isn't necessarily a problem. After all, consider who you would try to disarm - a credible melee threat that uses a weapon. How does one become one of these? Either be a TWF Rogue (hey look, same BAB, penalty to attacks, and light weapons!) or be a THF crusher type with Power Attack (hey look, there goes that BAB advantage).

The locked gauntlet generally gets brought up around here, but honestly, how often do you see locked gauntlets on a character?