thieving paladin

[reorith]

another paladin question

whilst delving the tomb of horrors, our druid recently came across a mysterious gem. he was afraid to touch it, believing that it may have been cursed/evil etc. The paladin offered his services and retrieved it. he pocketed the gem, which turned out to be a gem of Wish, and when asked about it, he did not answer. he obviously wanted the gem for himself, and stole outright from our party, completely disregarding the party contract which he signed. should the lose his paladin-hood over this?

sorry our party has three paladins and uses the default alignment system. as a result we run into these obstacles fairly often.

semi-relevant information.
he is an lg paladin.
the druid was standing in an adjacent square
the thing glows.
after the dm whispered in the pally's ear, explaining the power of the gem, the druid asked "what do you have there?" and recieved a reply of "nothing"
the party charter states that loot is distributed first by party role, second by appraised value and third by the principle of hey who wants this?

[Assassinfox]

I think he should lose paladinhood over this, but you'll probably get pantloads of people saying that he shouldn't lose paladinhood over it, and a bunch of people saying he should be rewarded for his trickery.

[MinMax]

Three Paladins of Virtue? That's a recipe for disaster. Even two is pushing it. Anyways, I supposed motive is the only really relavent factor here. If the paladin was keeping to, for example, keep it out of the hands of those who would make frivolous or evil use of it, 4 stars. If the paladin was taking it to give to others deemed worthy, or perhaps more worthy of the possession, such as a church, then that's good too. For personal use, or for personal gain though, is not right, and in direction violation of the Paladin Code.

Additionally, though these alternatives may have been good, they weren't lawful, if a true contract had indeed been drafted dictating how treasure would be split up. This, despite intent for the reason, is the actual violation of the Paladin Code that is most glaring. Stealing to give to the poor, if I might offer an example, is not Lawful, and something a Paladin of Virtue would not consider without significant reason, but would probably still require atonement

[The_Werebear]

I would say it is a direct violation. While the paladin is primarily good, stealing for a selfish reason and disregarding a legal contract that is not opressing anyone is a gross violation of the Code.

[Aquillion]

Let's quote the code again!

Code of Conduct

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

This was obviously a dishonorable act, so it was a code violation. A Paladin could fall for it, but doesn't have to. (Only a deliberate evil act requires that they fall immediately.)

At the very least, your DM should probably give them a hint that that was not a very Paladin-ish thing to do (the next time they pray for spells, they sense that their God disapproves of them or whatever.) The other Paladins in your party could also talk to him ICly if they know about it, or any Clerics of the same God if you have any. Personally, I'd say he's not fallen yet, but he's on a very, very bad path, and could be in trouble if he doesn't straighten up fast.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Hooorible violation of his code. The court says he shall fall!

[Caledonian]

It's a violation of the code, and without extenuating circumstances, it's a gross violation.

Either his deity begins denying him major aspects of his powers, or revokes them completely. A simple Atonement spell, preceded by the paladin's return of the gem, public apology to those involved, and donation of half of his personal wealth to charity, would be sufficient to set things straight, though.

[Aquillion]

It's a violation of the code, and without extenuating circumstances, it's a gross violation.

I'm not sure I'd call it a gross violation. Gross violations, to me, are more character-defining events, like killing your liege, poisoning your blade in a crucial dual of honor, and so forth. Pocketing treasure is hardly proper Paladin behavior, but it isn't such a monstrous act that it'd get you thrown out of the faith on its own.

[1337_master]

Of course He should lose his Paladin hood! lying, stealing, etc etc.

[SpiderBrigade]

I recommend having a talk with the DM and the player about this before anything happens in-game. If the DM agrees that this action is fall-worthy, I think he should let the paladin player know this, then give him a chance to share the gem. I say this because it's very possible that the player wants the gem, and is metagaming reasons to keep it. A little reminder that paladins are above such thing should give him enough of a nudge to change his tune. If not...well, there might be consequences.

I'm not totally sure that this is an "instant-fall" kind of offense, but it's definitely un-paladinish. If the player persists, he might be one or tow further actions away from alignment shift.

[Caledonian]

Pocketing treasure is hardly proper Paladin behavior, but it isn't such a monstrous act that it'd get you thrown out of the faith on its own.

Violation of a contract made in good faith without extenuating circumstances. Avarice. Betrayal. It's a major Chaotic act that doesn't serve Good - that's bad news for paladins.

And I didn't say thrown out of the faith. Denied paladin powers, yes. Major sins are grounds for that - there are plenty of Lawful Good people who don't qualify to be paladins, and they're good and decent people. Theft? Disqualification, right there.

If he'd felt bad and gave it back, it'd be mostly okay. But repeatedly refusing to discuss it and continuing to possess the gem? Bad news. If he wants it for a Good purpose, he can make restitution to the party for its value (he actually acquired it, so I'd consider him to have first dibs, unless the contract says otherwise). But that's not what he's doing.

[Person_Man]

Well, he never lied. He failed to answer a question.

He never stole. He found the gem in a dungeon. It didn't belong to the Druid before the Paladin found it, and maybe he has a better purpose for it in mind.

I'm not sure of the wording of the contract, so I can't say whether or not he broke it. But even if he did break a contract, that's still only an maybe an unlawful act. If he's outside of a country then no one has the legal jurisdiction to enforce it. So maybe its technically allowable, even though its a jerk move.

Look at Miko. She's an excellent example of a Paladin who treated people poorly all the time and actively thwarted the Good and legally sanctioned actions of others, and never lost her Paladin abilities until she did some hugely over the line. By the same token, a Chaotic Evil Blackguard could love orphans, buy them all gifts on Solstice, be a really fun drinking buddy, and be totally honest to his friends - but the rest of the time he focuses on the genocide of all Elves everywhere. Chaotic Evil, but nice sometimes. Just like a Paladin can be Lawful Good, but selfish sometimes.

Unless the Paladin has some sort of very strict code, being a mean jerk is not enough to lose Paladin abilities. You only lose your abilities if you commit a blatantly Evil act. And while you are required to follow your code of conduct, the PHB is purposefully vague about what that code is (unlike the Knight, which spells it out for you) and how you choose to best uphold it. You don't lose your abilities for straying from your code a little now and then, as long as you are Good and your true motivation is to uphold your code when possible.

[Assassinfox]

Yay, Miko

Should we trust the word of someone who supports the elder gods' political campaign?

Wordplay like that is the kinda thing Baatezu do. Might as well have the paladin murder someone and say "I didn't kill him. My sword fell on him and just happened to slice through his neck."

[Eighth_Seraph]

Frankly, I hold Paladins to a very high standard (rightly so, IMO); and this is the sort of thing that people would be disappointed or outright furious for a the party's fighter to do. Person Man made some good points, but stealing is against the universal moral code for sentient creatures. If the contract states anything to the effect of the gem being the party's shared property, then the paladin needs to be reminded. If he does not immediately give it up, he will be stripped of his divine abilities until he makes proper restitution and Atones.

[Nerd-o-rama]

stealing is against the universal moral code for sentient creatures.

It is? I'm all for objective morality in D&D, but to my estimation, stealing generally falls into the Chaotic spectrum.

Now, screwing your friends out of treasure for entirely selfish reasons is in the Evil section, and is definitely dishonorable enough to be un-paladinlike. He should probably be asked to explain his actions to the DM out of character, if nothing else. Why ninja your party's loot? If the answer is "finder's keepers", then yeah, this definitely falls into dishonorable, if not Evil.

[Ramza00]

Sigh the code of conduct is one of the reasons why I hate traditional paladins, better to make a paladin of freedom+crusader

[Zincorium]

Unless the Paladin has some sort of very strict code, being a mean jerk is not enough to lose Paladin abilities. You only lose your abilities if you commit a blatantly Evil act. And while you are required to follow your code of conduct, the PHB is purposefully vague about what that code is (unlike the Knight, which spells it out for you) and how you choose to best uphold it. You don't lose your abilities for straying from your code a little now and then, as long as you are Good and your true motivation is to uphold your code when possible.

Emphasis mine. Yes, yes they do. They are required by the code to not simply refrain from doing evil, but actively supporting good and law 100% of the time. Loose morals are not a paladin-ish trait.

Firstly, acting honorably. Is there a more honorable thing the paladin should have done? Yep, and they didn't do it. In fact, they did the dishonorable thing. Whether the contract was enforceable or not has no bearing, if the paladin agreed to it, they are obligated to honor that agreement. You don't keep paladin status just because no one is there to catch you.

And while you might or might not lose your abilities for straying from the code, if you do so for a good reason, but there was no good reason espoused here, and willfully and intentionally violating the code that way shows you just don't have what it takes to be a paladin. Maybe you could be a highly religious fighter or the like, but you just don't have the commitment and devotion that are the entire reason paladins are given powers in the first place.

[Felius]

Insufficient information.

With what he knew about his party members, what he expects the druid to do with a wish?

How is his general behavior?

What he did with the wish?

What was his intention when he stole the gem?

Any other aggravating or mitigating factors?

[Ranis]

Obviously a violation of Code 13439B: "Thou shalt not steal whilst playing a paladin or be poked to death by +3 Holy Pointy Sharp Instruments of Death."

[Sardia]

Well, the only reason to do it was personal gain. Quibble about details one way or the other, he was motivated by greed here. Cosmic moral slapdown time, I think.

[Ramza00]

Not neccessary, perhaps the reason he kept the gem for himself is so he can use it for some noble lawfulish or goody thin, a wish is a powerful resource and can make a good side plot/backstory reason.

[Nerd-o-rama]

No, there are other possible reasons. That's the one detail that actually matters: if he "stole" the gem for a (very) good reason, not than personal gain, he might be okay, cosmic-morally speaking.

[Kultrum]

The pally loses his powers, he goes not pass go, he does not collect 200gp

[Kultrum]

Not neccessary, perhaps the reason he kept the gem for himself is so he can use it for some noble lawfulish or goody thin, a wish is a powerful resource and can make a good side plot/backstory reason.

even then he lied about it, it would be ok if he said what it was as he knew then said he would keep it and put it to good use

[Fax Celestis]

Obviously a violation of Code 13439B: "Thou shalt not steal whilst playing a paladin or be poked to death by +3 Holy Pointy Sharp Instruments of Death."

...which happens to be the same penalty for violating Codes 1 through 13438, as well.

[Ramza00]

even then he lied about it, it would be ok if he said what it was as he knew then said he would keep it and put it to good use

Lawful doesn't mean you arent' allowed to lie, it means you aren't allowed to lie frivolously. If the reasons for the lie is an important reason, especially if its connected to a "cause" or "order" he is allowed to do so.

Now if he is lieing for the sake of greed, that is a different matter

[TheOOB]

No, there are other possible reasons. That's the one detail that actually matters: if he "stole" the gem for a (very) good reason, not than personal gain, he might be okay, cosmic-morally speaking.

Since when has the paladin code been about good? Paladins are required to be good, but they lose their paladinhood if they break their code even if they do so for the greater good.

I never liked paladins because their code often forces them to do things that are down-right stupid or lose class abilities, and they abilities they risk losing arn't even good enough to warrent such a balancing factor.

In any case, stealing from the group is grounds for falling, no matter what your intentions.

[Knight_Of_Twilight]

I really don't see how its a question. Its not one big evil, its lots of little small ones put together. He falls, but not dramatically.

If he had some other reason besides personal gain, maybe...

[PMDM]

You could argue that he's trying to "protect" the gem, but that's kind of cheating.

[Caledonian]

Since when has the paladin code been about good? Paladins are required to be good, but they lose their paladinhood if they break their code even if they do so for the greater good.

No, they don't. Paladins lose their status for even a single Evil action, but minor violations of the code don't cause that. Paladins are in fact obligated to break the code when upholding it leads directly to Evil outcomes.

In any case, stealing from the group is grounds for falling, no matter what your intentions.

Not necessarily. You seem more concerned about the social contract between the players than the principles binding the characters.