The 6+ skill points/level campaign

[Shisumo]

Some time ago, in a thread I can't seem to find that involved a campaign that would be heavily sneaky/skills-based, a suggestion was made to limit base classes to those that get 6+ skills per level. For some reason, I've never been able to shake that concept; it just sounds so... intriguing. So here are my questions:

1) What base classes would be on that list?

2) Given the answers to 1), what kinds of potential problems could develop for such a campaign?

The classes that I can think of so far:

Bard
Beguiler
Cloistered Cleric
Ninja
Ranger
Rogue
Scout
Spellthief
Swordsage

[JaronK]

Yeah, I've been toying with that idea for a long time... of the broken classes, only Cloistered Cleric gets in there, so it's a lot more balanced. Some you may have missed:

Feat Varient Rogue
Halfling Substitution Druid (but only level 1)

Also, there's PrCs:

Dread Pirate
Olaam
Folklean Lyricist (you can get in via Halfling Druid, whee!)
and a number of others.

Basically, the problem is somewhat limited tanking and very limited arcane casting, so the overall powerlevel goes down. That said, it's easy for a DM to adjust to that, and the whole game becomes a lot more balanced (plus it's nearly impossible to get spells like teleport).

JaronK

[melchizedek]

It would also be important to make sure that there where ways to use all of the skills that players might pick in the campaign. With a decent sized group, it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect that all of the skills are adequately covered. Put an object in the center of a pond, and make people swim to get it. Make sure people actually have a reason to make checks for all of the skills they picked, and make sure the checks are actually difficult enough to challenge a high level character.

[Shisumo]

Yeah, I've been toying with that idea for a long time... of the broken classes, only Cloistered Cleric gets in there, so it's a lot more balanced. Some you may have missed:

Feat Varient Rogue
Halfling Substitution Druid (but only level 1)

Also, there's PrCs:

Dread Pirate
Olaam
Folklean Lyricist (you can get in via Halfling Druid, whee!)
and a number of others.

Basically, the problem is somewhat limited tanking and very limited arcane casting, so the overall powerlevel goes down. That said, it's easy for a DM to adjust to that, and the whole game becomes a lot more balanced (plus it's nearly impossible to get spells like teleport).

JaronK

I think I'm okay with PrCs that go below the 6 pts mark - it's the base classes that, I think, establish the baseline for power level. If I allow that, the only way I can see to get some of the worst sorcerer/wizard cheese going is, oddly, through the Sublime Chord prestige class - and any setting which makes bards the route to Ultimate Power (tm) is all right with me.

The tanking, though, is something I'm more concerned about. There's only one full BAB class on the list, and only two d8 HD classes - everything else is d6s. This seems like a good campaign to institute the class-based AC bonuses variant, but there still might be some problems with not being able to take hits or dish them out. I could use the Thug fighter variant, and houserule it to be a 6 skills/level class, maybe...

[JaronK]

Honestly, I think a highly skilled campaign is fine with limited tanking. It just means the characters are going to have to be more clever.

I strongly recommend you keep to the 6+ skill points for PrCs, or else some very nasty casters can sneak back in (Ur Priest/Sublime Chord -> Mystic Theurge, hello 9th level arcane spells/9th level divine spells on the same character!).

JaronK

[The_Snark]

I think I'm okay with PrCs that go below the 6 pts mark - it's the base classes that, I think, establish the baseline for power level. If I allow that, the only way I can see to get some of the worst sorcerer/wizard cheese going is, oddly, through the Sublime Chord prestige class - and any setting which makes bards the route to Ultimate Power (tm) is all right with me.

The tanking, though, is something I'm more concerned about. There's only one full BAB class on the list, and only two d8 HD classes - everything else is d6s. This seems like a good campaign to institute the class-based AC bonuses variant, but there still might be some problems with not being able to take hits or dish them out. I could use the Thug fighter variant, and houserule it to be a 6 skills/level class, maybe...

I'd put the Swashbuckler in, too, either as-is or with 6+Int skill points. They still fit the theme fairly well; they're not a tank in the same way that the fighter or barbarian is, but that's probably more appropriate to the setting also. Class-based defense variant also sounds good, as you're not going to want anyone clanking around in lots of armor.

[melchizedek]

It shouldn't be too big of a problem so long as you take it into account in the encounters. Don't force tanking on the characters. Make sure they have opportunities to resolve conflicts without combat, and if it does come to fighting, let the characters use their skills to help them. Give them ways to stay out of range of enemies, plenty of flanking opportunities and lots of cover.

Using a class-based AC variant of some sort would make a lot of sense. It might take some effort to implement, but I really like the way the Wheel of Time RPG incorporates Defense bonus.

If you're going to add skill points to a melee class, you might consider adding them to the Swashbuckler as well as the Thug. Of course, I'm slightly biased as I think swashbuckler's are really cool.

[Shisumo]

Honestly, I think a highly skilled campaign is fine with limited tanking. It just means the characters are going to have to be more clever.

I strongly recommend you keep to the 6+ skill points for PrCs, or else some very nasty casters can sneak back in (Ur Priest/Sublime Chord -> Mystic Theurge, hello 9th level arcane spells/9th level divine spells on the same character!).

JaronK

Actually, I'd rather solve that problem by banning the Ur-Priest, which I just really don't care for conceptually. There are too many other interesting PrCs that might make for legitimate character advancements that I wouldn't want to shut out.

Bard 7/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 1/Sublime Chord 3/Mystic Theurge +7 is a nasty little spell progression in general, though... I'm impressed. Is that one yours?

[Shisumo]

Using a class-based AC variant of some sort would make a lot of sense. It might take some effort to implement, but I really like the way the Wheel of Time RPG incorporates Defense bonus.

It isn't quite as pretty, but I'd probably just use the Unearthed Arcana version instead. Less of a headache.

If you're going to add skill points to a melee class, you might consider adding them to the Swashbuckler as well as the Thug. Of course, I'm slightly biased as I think swashbuckler's are really cool.

That's two-for-two for that suggestion, and I have to admit it makes sense to me as well.

I also like that I can use the swordsage-monk variant to cover monklike characters (though who doesn't do that anyway?).

[Jannex]

As far as calibrating encounters, I'd suggest not having the PCs run up against many constructs/undead/plants, unless you build a work-around into the encounter; many of the more skillful classes rely on precision damage, to which creatures that are immune to critical hits aren't susceptible.

That suggestion aside, this sounds like the most awesome campaign ever. I mean, it's pretty much completely my play style; I'm pretty much fundamentally incapable of playing anything that gets fewer than 6+Int skill points a level. Let us know how this works out for you!

[Vik]

If you want a melee guy, you could consider allowing a human Barbarian with an Int of 12, that's 6 pts / lvl.
The ranger is also a 6pts + d8 + full BAB class. Obviously, you'll have to adapt encounters, but it
ll be already the case as you're prohibiting cleric and wizard.

[Ranis]

You'd need to rework some of the more melee-capable classes to fit this then, to make combat for more than 4 rounds a viable option.

[Thexare Blademoon]

If you want a melee guy, you could consider allowing a human Barbarian with an Int of 12, that's 6 pts / lvl.

No, that's 5 pts/lvl, I think... can't check the SRD right now though, because it isn't loading.

[Shisumo]

If you want a melee guy, you could consider allowing a human Barbarian with an Int of 12, that's 6 pts / lvl.
The ranger is also a 6pts + d8 + full BAB class. Obviously, you'll have to adapt encounters, but it
ll be already the case as you're prohibiting cleric and wizard.

No, the instant I do that, everyone's playing human druids with Int 12 and human wizards with Int 16 and I wind up not having achieved anything. I am cool with modifying some less-popular and skills-oriented classes to make them fit the 6-skills mark, but I don't just want to say, "have 6 skills/level" - it doesn't take the campaign where I want it to go.

You'd need to rework some of the more melee-capable classes to fit this then, to make combat for more than 4 rounds a viable option.

Yeah, as was discussed above, I will probably adapt the thug and the swashbuckler to have 6 pts/level each. Also, the urban ranger variant would also be available. I am a little concerned about the thug, though; the biggest problem with it as a class is that it doesn't do anything at level one. Nothing whatsoever. Who wants to have a class with no class features at level 1? Anybody got any ideas for something that could be added to it to make it worth looking at?

[Shisumo]

No, that's 5 pts/lvl, I think... can't check the SRD right now though, because it isn't loading.

4 for the class, 1 for the Int score, 1 for humanness.

[Ikkitosen]

Yeah, it has to be int bonus notwithstanding, otherwise human wizard with 16 int would be in.

I really like the idea of limited-class games. I wouldn't necessarily use anything so broad-brushed as "must have 6+ skill points" but a limited list, yes indeedy. Flavoursome!

[Variable Arcana]

So long as it's not a combat-focussed campaign, this sounds great.

Lots of persuasion and stealth and skill-rolling... should be fine.

Remember that you get just as many xps for sneaking past a golem to stealthily remove its treasure as you would for killing it.

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah, as was discussed above, I will probably adapt the thug and the swashbuckler to have 6 pts/level each. Also, the urban ranger variant would also be available. I am a little concerned about the thug, though; the biggest problem with it as a class is that it doesn't do anything at level one. Nothing whatsoever. Who wants to have a class with no class features at level 1? Anybody got any ideas for something that could be added to it to make it worth looking at?

Give it a die of Sneak Attack or Skirmish or something.

[Shisumo]

Give it a die of Sneak Attack or Skirmish or something.

That just makes it even more of a dip class than it already is...

[Vik]

No, the instant I do that, everyone's playing human druids with Int 12 and human wizards with Int 16 and I wind up not having achieved anything. I am cool with modifying some less-popular and skills-oriented classes to make them fit the 6-skills mark, but I don't just want to say, "have 6 skills/level" - it doesn't take the campaign where I want it to go.

What I wanted to say is that you can allow some extra classes, like the barbarian, which will fit well in such a campaign - he can be the outdoor man easily, even if he will maybe need a dip into Ranger (to get some ranks in sneaky skills and get Track). You can even give him 6 pts per level as a class feature, if you want so.

[SpiderBrigade]

I'm going to voice a dissenting opinion. The trend of the discussion seems to be towards finding ways to allow a wider range of classes for the campaign, and I think that's not necessary. A skillmonkey game is going to be very different from your regular no-classes-barred situation anyway, and as the DM you control what it ends up being. Yeah, a rogue-based group is going to have more trouble handling, say, an Owlbear, because they don't have a guy who can really dish out damage and take the hits. So you don't make the game heavy on the Owlbears.

[storybookknight]

This could get really interesting, especially if you used Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel.

I think I'll second Fax's notion that maybe you don't want to widen the portfolio too much - but I do say you should throw in Swashbucklers. They fit the flavor of the game, if not necessarily the mechanics.

[JaronK]

Exactly. With that many skillpoints available, it's likely the group will have other methods of dealing with enemies. In fact, needing such other methods is one of the fun parts. The group can't just forcecage their enemies, or Polymorph Any Object into a Dragon, or whatever. They'll have to actually use those skill points. So if the Ranger is the best they can do for melee and the Beguiler or Bard/Sublime Chord is the best they can do for arcane... great!

And do try and keep PrCs to 6+ skill points as well. Otherwise, you can have a Beguiler/Shadowcraft Mage, which is a full powered arcane caster and really loses the whole point. Also options would be Ranger/War Hulk or Ranger/Frenzied Berserker.

JaronK

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'd put monk and mindblade soulknife up to 6 skill points per level and throw them in.

[storybookknight]

I'd put monk and mindblade soulknife up to 6 skill points per level and throw them in.

Agreed; they rarely get enough screen time, and both fill the 'niche' of secondary skillmonkey/secondary fighter in a party of 5 or 6.

[Draz74]

Considering non-Thug Fighters are gone, and Fighter is weak anyway, I bet you could just let Thugs keep their level-1 feat without too many complaints.

This campaign sounds fun!

What will balance be like? The Cloistered Cleric really isn't much less powerful than the Cleric, once he gets Divine Power; he's still ClericZilla. I recommend you ban Divine Power, or at least make it Domain-only.

With that ban in place, the three classes that stand out seem like the Cleric (still a good full caster), Beguiler, and Swordsage. Any minor nerfs we can give those three to bring them down to the level of all the other available classes?

[storybookknight]

Those classes will be standout, yeah, but they won't be able to do the trapmonkey stuff that a skill-based campaign requires - except maybe the beguiler, who will fall down in melee.

[Draz74]

Speaking of trapmonkey focusing, it seems like this campaign would definitely need Dungeonscape as a supplement to make trapsolving more than, "take 20 on Search. Roll Disable Device. Take 20 on search. Roll Disable Device ..."

... Unless, of course, the DM is one of those people (not like me) who can make traps interesting and Dungeonscape-like without actually having the Dungeonscape book to help them.

[thorgrim29]

Now thats interresting, the ninja and courtier from the Rokugan sourcebook would qualify, and I agree you should allow swackbuclers, because they're cool. Maybe modify the barbarian a bit so he fits the bill..... drop the dr?

[Druid]

If you use psionics I'd recomend bumping the soulknife up to 6 skill points a level and adding the psychic rogue.