My brains! My poor, sweet brains!

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

They're DYING.

Here's why:
I was answering a few relatively simple queries (things even I, who frequently has to ask about the simplest things) when suddenly, I came across someone claiming that rogues- Rogues! Were overpowered.

Here's their initial post to my incredulous "What?" post, tucked away in a spoiler.

Spoiler

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At worst a Rogue has a BAB 5 less than a Fighter. Its really not that much and with factoring in Flanking bonuses, invisibility bonuses, or attacking someone thats flat-footed the targets AC isn't going to be as steep as you think (especially if you're using the feat that makes your next attack a touch attack or a brilliant energy weapon). Also any Sneak Attack Rogue worth his salt will be using weapon finesse (making up for the probable low strength). Also don't forget the Rogues ability to read scrolls/use wands and the spells that allow sneak attack on creatures that are normally immune.

Add it all up and you've got a Rogue that can do crazy damage to just about anything and with a good chance to hit. And thats not overpowered?

At any rate, here was my initial response, which I'm reasonably confident of:

Spoiler

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That's a 25% decrease in accuracy, and nothing to sneeze at.
Flanking isn't as easy to achieve as you seem to think, invisibility is (while a potent tactic) not insurmountable- most foes at the levels where it can be used while attacking have area-effect attacks or some similar means, and many monsters have continual true seeing abilities. Flat-footed opponents are, yes, the Rogue's strength, and that's fine.
Rogues using weapon finesse is no more unbalancing than fighters using power attack; are we to forbid classes from playing to their strengths?
Relatively few spells of the nature you're speaking of exist, there's no assurance a rogue has access to them, so most constructs, oozes and undead are going to get off without a sneak attack.

In addition, the Rogue's sneak attack simply doesn't deal enough damage to be unbalancing, even with its normal, unlimited usage. The Maximum bonus damage dealt by a twentieth level rogue is 60 points.
A Pit Fiend (a typical CR20 challenge) as 225hp; assuming the rogue can attack it through its flaming body, and assuming it can defeat the devil's AC, etc.; even if the rogue does his absolute maximum of bonus damage, the combat is not going to be over any faster than it should be.
Compare it to a fighter, with his very, very high strength bonus, power attack, two-handed weapon, etc.; or, better yet, to the wizard, with his 10d6 fire damage from Fireball, a benefit that arrives some few levels earlier than the rogues, and effects multiple creatures.

Also consider the rogue's hit die; a meager d6. While he assuredly can charge into battle, looking to flank, and so deal some degree of damage, he will almost certainly die in the attempt. He has half the HP of a barbarian, only slightly more than the fragile wizard, and considerably less than the fighter. HP is a resource that limits the wisdom of exposure to combat.

Add it all up and the rogue is an excellent opportunistic combatant, but not the equal of a fighter in a stand-up fight, unable to match the Ranger with his archery due to feat costs, unable to match the wizard in raw damage output. The Rogue is far, far, far, far away from being overpowered. It does a few things; in combat, it does one. It does it well.
That's all.

Now here's the part where my cerebrum started shrieking in endless horror and pain:

Spoiler

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Using power attacks decreases the fighters attack bonus by at least the 25% that the Rogue looses on BAB. At least. And even with the Power Attack a beefcake fighter can do nowhere near the damage of a Rogue. It even beats the Wizard for sheer damage to one target!

Rogue can get to ... 628 damage
96d6 + 52 (best attack bonus @ +28, +30 flanking)
Thats almost a one round kill on 2 Pit Fiends (counting DR)

Power hitting Fighter can do ... 252 damage
15d6 + 162 (best attack bonus @ + 32)
That would be 2 rounds to kill one Pit Fiend (counting DR)

A Wizard using Time Stop and Delayed Blast Fireball ... 600 damage
20d6 five times (Reflex to avoid)

Thats going Core Rules and assuming a 30 on their primary stat by level 20 (14 for the Rogues Strength) and weilding +5 Speed weapons that add 1d6 elemental damage. The Rogue takes the two weapon fighting tree and the fighter does Power Attack (and drops his attack by 5 points to get the extra 10 damage) and the weapon Focus/Specialisation. Both are Human and neither scored any critical hits.


Flanking is easy for a Rogue. A few Tumble checks and they are in position. The DC isn't even that hard - 15 (25 if you actually want to maneuver through an enemies square and not just the threatened area). A 5th level Rogue can do it with no chance of failure even with no skill focus feats. 5th level. Bad terrain will open up a margin of error but you can still add ranks after level 5 and be a Tumbling feind.


The AC isn't going to be that different. The Rogue will undoubtedly use Bracers of Armor +8 and apply its full Dex bonus (a whoping +10) and include Two Weapon Defense while the Fighter will end up using armor (Probably Mithral Full Plate +5) and an animated tower sheild +5. Rogue ends up with an AC of 29 and the Fighter with an AC of 35. A 6 point difference is notable but not insurmountable one especially when you consider the Rogues Armor costs 75% that of the Fighter as it stands.


As for the Wizard or Sorceror, yes they can do 10d6 to an area but they are limited to how many times per day they can do it. High level Wizards are the most deadly class in the game ... until they run out of spells and by the time you get that high in levels it isn't too hard for the monsters (or anyone else) to make the saving throws.


Average HP per level of a Fighter is 5.5 and a Rogue has an average of 3.5. Thats a 2hp per level difference. Using the example of the Pit Fiend it means the Fighter can take two extra claw attacks. Also using that example Pit Fiend, the Rogue will most likely not take any damage from its at will Fireball ability, can you say the same for the Fighter? Survivability in combat is more than HP and AC, especially at high levels.

As far as I can tell, very little of this makes any sense at all- not necessarily nothing, but very little, though it took a real effort of will to read past the " 96d6 + 52 (best attack bonus @ +28, +30 flanking) " apparently pulled from the magical universe of Dz'unt mek'senz.

Help! Please! My cerebrum is burning!

[jjpickar]

He may be multi-weapon fighting with a thri-keen and since every attack gets to apply sneak dice. It seems a bit much though.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

But still- where the heck did she get +28 BAB? Or a +30 flanking bonus? The flanking bonus is +2. That's all, as far as I know.

And even assuming it's a Kreen, attacking with all four arms, and hitting with all of them....it's a ridiculous set of optimized assumptions, is all I can figure.

[brian c]

However he's finding that 96d6, there's going to be something equally cheesy for a fighter or a wizard.

At any rate, you can't measure wizards by how much damage fireball does; every wizard fan here will tell you that evocation sucks, and that Save/Die spells are the best.

[Just Alex]

Can you use TWF, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF with Multi-attack?

Assuming you can, then using a shortsword and assuming a hit on all attacks, I think 96d6 is right. Of course, the "all hits" is pretty sketchy and the average damage is only gonna be 336+ strength.

I think the bigger question is "what the hell kind of power gamer uses damage as the basis for how broken a character is?"

[Cybren]

Rogues aren't overpowered, yeah. They're really what everything else should be balanced to be in line with. There's no point in arguing with that person. There wasn't much point in posting it here either.

[jjpickar]

Well it is a lot of damage... Don't sneeze at damage and if you do; "gesundheit!"

[Arbitrarity]

10d6 sneak attack, elemental damage,


Just a sec, +5 elemental speed weapons?!

Ok, the attack action looks like: (15+10(dex)+5-2(TWF))

So 28/28/28/28/23/23/18/18 with greater TWF. Stupid double speed weapons.

8 attacks * 12d6 (weapon, elemental, and sneak attack) is 96d6.

Yeah, it's legal, assuming he spent HALF his RWT on weapons.

Now, the fighter, using leap attack, shock trooper, and multiclassing to psychic warrior, psionic lion's charges, making 5 attacks with HIS +5 speed weapon, making a 36/36/31/26/21, dealing 3d6+107 per hit. Bitch. Better to hit, consistient on all hit average of 585 damage.

Lesee. If you make him thri-kreen (nonpsionic), he does 36/36/31/26/21 3d6+121, incrementally better (thri-kreen str boost fixes -1 BAB.) Average, on all hit, damage of 675. If you include his bite, it gets incrementally better.

Now, thri-kreen rogue, multiclassing full BAB for 2 levels to make up for lost BAB, to get GMWF, is 30/30/30/30/30/30/30/30/25/25/25/25/20/20/20/20, dealing 10d6+5 per hit. That's 16 attacks, for a total of 160d6+80

Revised, 13 attacks, only 130d6 :( 520 average damage, on all hits.

He spent his entire RWT on those weapons.

And the speed weapons do stack, as he has more than one, judging by the text,

When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it

With the weapon. So if I have more than 1, I can make more than 1 extra attack.

On the other hand, the later

(This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

Suggests the opposite. Odd. Likely doesn't stack then, making my thri-kreen less unreasonable.

[Rigeld2]

28+2=30 So 30 with flanking, not in addition to the 28.
Hes figuring on 8 attacks using the 20d6 from the Rogue class, and 2d6 from somewhere else (I thought it was Craven, but that adds damage, not dice.)
3 base, 1 haste, 3 more TWF gives 7... probably counting speed weapons as stacking (which they dont) so that lowers damage some right there. The possibility that all 7 attacks hit is low enough that it might as well be 0.

[Variable Arcana]

1) It's worth pointing out that the odds of getting 628 damage out of 96d6+52 is about 5x10^74 to 1 against. Average damage is a much, much, much more reasonable measure of damage.

2) I'd love to know what kind of uber-cheese they're using to get that rogue build, and why they're using such ridiculously poor builds for the fighter and wizard. I mean, seriously. Fireball? Even DBF is a silly choice. Their 20th level wizard got a Time Stop off and failed to do a single point of damage to the Pit Fiend. That's just silly.

Edit: actually... not doing any damage isn't that silly. The silly thing is failing to kill/dismiss/otherwise defeat it. An optimal wizard action probably wouldn't cause the Pit Fiend any damage either. :tidE

3) Getting a full attack from flanking position against a creature with at-will Greater Teleport and more intelligence than a typical Chess Grand Master is sufficiently difficult that such a rogue deserves full xps for killing the Pit Fiend. Just ask them to explain how the rogue did it.

[ocato]

Well, he seems to be being fairly specific about gear. "Watch my rogue with very specific magical items be better than a fighter with seemingly fewer or less specified magic items"

[jjpickar]

He didn't specify what creature he was attacking though.

[Gralamin]

Rogue can get to ... 628 damage
96d6 + 52 (best attack bonus @ +28, +30 flanking)
Thats almost a one round kill on 2 Pit Fiends (counting DR)

First of all, hes saying when he flanks the total is +30 (as worded badly as it is). I wonder how he gets the 28 though.

Next (Warning mistakes might be in here, I'm not sure I understand the entirety of the rules for sneak attack and two weapon fighting):
Assuming he is two weapon fighting with all three feats, he has 6 attacks. Assuming each of these attacks are with a weapon that deals an extra 1d6 damage each (As he said), +7 damage per attack (14 strength and a +5 weapon), his 6 attacks, all with sneak attack result in 72d6 + 504, for an average of 756 if everything hits.

Please tell me I made some mistake in there

Simued with well thought out posts, carry on

[Arbitrarity]

Remember, his off hand is 1/2 str.

Fighter no care about flyingness. Fighter say fighter use magics, i.e. 60 ft flight speed, i.e. chargeable :D

Fighter wonder about dive attack + charge + shock trooper + etc.

[jjpickar]

Still you have to credit him with getting twf to stand up to power attack. Kudos from me at least.

[The_Snark]

The Pit Fiend has Flight and a killer fear aura, too, though if we're assuming max on all possible rolls I guess that last one doesn't matter. Here are my objections, many of which have been covered somewhat already.

First, I'm fairly sure (though I may be wrong) that two speed weapons doesn't give two extra attacks, as per the rule that multiple Haste-like effects don't stack.

Second, he's assuming the Rogue is, again, managing to strike a creature that can fly and teleport at will. Flank it, actually, since you can't make a full attack in a surprise round. It's also got reach; it has no real reason to stay on the ground.

Third, those iterative attacks are not going to hit. Rogues aren't great, accuracy-wise. All those advantages given to this rogue (invisibility, flanking) can help the fighter just as much, and almost as easily (fighter can't Tumble into flanking position as well, that's all). Hitting with both of your third attacks... is not going to happen. Especially against an AC 40 pit fiend; we're talking "Well, if I get a natural 20..."

Fourth, assuming everyone has the best possible outcome isn't any way to determine balance. That leap attacking/shock trooper fighter will catch up a lot on average damage. And if you're assuming this, you may as well assume that the pit fiend fails its save against the wizard's Finger of Death.

Last, why does the rogue have twice as much equipment as the fighter? Two-weapon fighters have to spend a ton more money on their weapons, and the fighter could easily have put that 160,000 towards buying stat-boosting items.

[Rigeld2]

Still you have to credit him with getting twf to stand up to power attack. Kudos from me at least.

If the Power Attacker can only spend half the money, and if you miscalculate some of the damage, sure, it stands up.

If we were provided with builds, I guarantee it wouldnt.

[Jasdoif]

What's funny is that if we're talking raw damage, using disintegrate would up the wizard's maximum damage to 1200...and using a metamagic rod and a wand/scroll you could actually attain that number

Anyway. That DC 15 Tumble check will generally take you 15 feet, assuming you want to attack in the same round. And to full attack? You've gotta start your turn within 5 feet, meaning your foe has to stay there once you move into position and your flanking buddy has to hang around, too. Yeah, let's watch that happen. Maybe we can see the rogue get crushed by the full attack he's invited upon himself.

As for the damage...I suppose if you had two +5 flaming rapiers of haste and Greater Two Weapon Fighting and 10d6 sneak attack and 14 strength an got an extra attack with each of the two weapons, you could pull it off. All you have to do is survive being a position where your foe could full attack you before your turn (or keep your opponent from moving away), never miss on a single attack even with that -14 penalty on the last two, and your target not have energy resistance or DR.

[Kel_Arath]

so yes, with his broken knowledge the rogue can do ungodly damage (still dont see his math). but take a wizard, send them to another plane (any number of spells) and bam, its set...

[storybookknight]

No, see, he took the "maximize d20 roll" and "maximize d6" feats, and took a prestige class that gave him diminished level adjustments on his metadice feats. He cool, he cool.

[Dark]

You know, if you're looking at maximum possible damage, then the wizard is being shortchanged here. Fireball is an area effect, after all. You should be able to get at least 30 pit fiends in the area of effect if you stack them (pit fiends can fly, right?), so the wizard can do a total of 120*5*30 = 18000 damage.

[greenknight]

I came across someone claiming that rogues- Rogues! Were overpowered.

Rogues are more powerful than Fighters, if they can Sneak Attack. But calling anything short of a full spellcaster overpowered is pushing it a bit.

Also don't forget the Rogues ability to read scrolls/use wands and the spells that allow sneak attack on creatures that are normally immune.

This bit is true. With all the splatbooks, it's possible for a Rogue to even get Sneak Attack damage vs Undead.

That's a 25% decrease in accuracy, and nothing to sneeze at.

Not really. A lot of a Rogue's attack bonus comes from Dexterity, and a bit from a magical weapon. A single classed 20th level Rogue with 32 Dexterity and a +5 weapon has an attack bonus of 31 (32 with Weapon Focus). A 20th level Fighter with 32 Strength, a +5 weapon and Greater Weapon Focus has an attack bonus of 38. The Rogue's 31 is about 20% less.

Flanking isn't as easy to achieve as you seem to think, invisibility is (while a potent tactic) not insurmountable- most foes at the levels where it can be used while attacking have area-effect attacks or some similar means, and many monsters have continual true seeing abilities. Flat-footed opponents are, yes, the Rogue's strength, and that's fine.

The Rogue's main method of being "invisible" is to hide, which True Seeing doesn't pick up on. Actual invisibility can help though.

The Maximum bonus damage dealt by a twentieth level rogue is 60 points.

It does depend on whether the splatbooks are allowed. For this example, I'm going to assume the player is allowed to use Complete Warrior and takes the Invisible Blade PRC:

Human Rogue 15 / Invisible Blade 5. BAB +16. Sneak Attack +11d6.

Dexterity 32 (start at 16, +5 level, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement).

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Weapon Focus (Dagger), Two Weapon Fighting, Impr. TWF, Gr TWF (add 2 more).

Class Specials: Opportunist (add 1 more)

Weapons:
Dagger +1, Speed, Flaming, Shock, Merciful (effective +7 enhancement)
Dagger +1, Flaming, Shock, Merciful (effective +4 enhancement)

At least in theory, I could have added Frost elemental damage, but personally I don't think fire and cold should be used on the same attack (it's just too weird, IMO). Cast Greater Magic Weapon on both weapons to bring them to +5 (from scrolls with UMD, if necessary).

Best Attack Bonus: 35 (33 normally, -2 when using TWF, +2 when flanking)
Attacks per round: 8, +1 from Opportunist.
Damage per attack: 1d4 + 11d6 + 3d6 + 5 (plus whatever Strength modifier the Rogue has)
Total potential damage: 9d4 + 126d6 + 45 + Strength modifier * 9.

That's a maximum damage per round of 837 (plus 9 * Strength). It's not likely to get anywhere near that high though - say about 510 if all the attacks hit, and subtract around 60 damage with each miss.

If I were to drop the Invisible Blade levels, the BAB drops to 15 (1 less attack per round, and best attack bonus drops to 34) and the Sneak Attack damage drops to 10d6. Total potential damage output per round drops to 696.

[SpartacusThe2nd]

how can u flank alone? just with a tumble check?
that's funny.

and im not gonna give you a fulll explanation of what I think about the rogues being overpowered.
that's stupidity.

[Zincorium]

Rogues are more powerful than Fighters, if they can Sneak Attack. But calling anything short of a full spellcaster overpowered is pushing it a bit.
This bit is true. With all the splatbooks, it's possible for a Rogue to even get Sneak Attack damage vs Undead.

Agreed fully so far.

Not really. A lot of a Rogue's attack bonus comes from Dexterity, and a bit from a magical weapon. A single classed 20th level Rogue with 32 Dexterity and a +5 weapon has an attack bonus of 31 (32 with Weapon Focus). A 20th level Fighter with 32 Strength, a +5 weapon and Greater Weapon Focus has an attack bonus of 38. The Rogue's 31 is about 20% less.

As a portion of a d20 roll, you're 7 points lower. While the numbers change at the high and low ends, that's going to most of the time be a 35% difference in terms of results. And that's just with the examples you give (and I'm assuming the rogue is using a ranged weapon or has weapon finesse).

The Rogue's main method of being "invisible" is to hide, which True Seeing doesn't pick up on. Actual invisibility can help though.

It actually helps a lot, since a lot of monsters (as opposed to characters) have good spot and listen rolls, making the check for sniping prohibitively difficult. Improved invisibility or blink lasts for the whole lot of attacks a rogue will need to solo something, hide and move silently are generally not worth attempting after combat begins without extenuating circumstances.

It does depend on whether the splatbooks are allowed. For this example, I'm going to assume the player is allowed to use Complete Warrior and takes the Invisible Blade PRC:

Human Rogue 15 / Invisible Blade 5. BAB +16. Sneak Attack +11d6.

Dexterity 32 (start at 16, +5 level, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement).

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Weapon Focus (Dagger), Two Weapon Fighting, Impr. TWF, Gr TWF (add 2 more).

Class Specials: Opportunist (add 1 more)

Weapons:
Dagger +1, Speed, Flaming, Shock, Merciful (effective +7 enhancement)
Dagger +1, Flaming, Shock, Merciful (effective +4 enhancement)

At least in theory, I could have added Frost elemental damage, but personally I don't think fire and cold should be used on the same attack (it's just too weird, IMO). Cast Greater Magic Weapon on both weapons to bring them to +5 (from scrolls with UMD, if necessary).

Best Attack Bonus: 35 (33 normally, -2 when using TWF, +2 when flanking)
Attacks per round: 8, +1 from Opportunist.
Damage per attack: 1d4 + 11d6 + 3d6 + 5 (plus whatever Strength modifier the Rogue has)
Total potential damage: 9d4 + 126d6 + 45 + Strength modifier * 9.

That's a maximum damage per round of 837 (plus 9 * Strength). It's not likely to get anywhere near that high though - say about 510 if all the attacks hit, and subtract around 60 damage with each miss.

If I were to drop the Invisible Blade levels, the BAB drops to 15 (1 less attack per round, and best attack bonus drops to 34) and the Sneak Attack damage drops to 10d6. Total potential damage output per round drops to 696.

But, what does using a Prc really prove? Once you open that particular door (complete warrior), the fighter's output increases far faster than the rogue's, if only due to leap attack and shock trooper pushing PA damage through the roof. While I grant that you've made an excellent build, it really has nothing to do with the original claim that so hurt poor shiny's brains.

Basically, the problem is that if you assume a whole bunch of stuff for a rogue, and assume the fighter doesn't have anything like it, then things seem broken. That doesn't mean they are as long as you make things fair.

[greenknight]

(and I'm assuming the rogue is using a ranged weapon or has weapon finesse).

Yep, forgot to include Weapon Finesse in the list.

Improved invisibility or blink lasts for the whole lot of attacks a rogue will need to solo something, hide and move silently are generally not worth attempting after combat begins without extenuating circumstances.

It does, but unless that Rogue's desperate, soloing a creature isn't really a good idea most of the time.

But, what does using a Prc really prove? Once you open that particular door (complete warrior), the fighter's output increases far faster than the rogue's, if only due to leap attack and shock trooper pushing PA damage through the roof. While I grant that you've made an excellent build, it really has nothing to do with the original claim that so hurt poor shiny's brains.

I used Invisible Blade because I consider it to be a HUGE advantage for just about any Rogue build, which can be seen if you read the comparison with a straight 20th level Rogue which I also posted. But even with a straight 20th level Rogue, the total potential damage per round is 696. That beats the 628 Shiny was worried about. That said, it's very important to realise that potential damage doesn't really reflect real world damage. That's likely to be much less, since each hit only causes an average damage of around 53 damage, and even in the unlikely event that all 8 attacks hit (which also requires someone else hitting the same target) it still only works out to be a little over 400 damage.

how can u flank alone?

A Rogue might be able to Summon something with UMD, but the harsh reality is that the class doesn't really work all that well alone. They are much better off flanking, and that means they need support. Which in turn does argue quite strongly against them being overpowered. Even though they can output some pretty impressive damage, the conditions which allow them to do so have to be just right, or it doesn't work.

[iceman]

two words: Heavy Fortification. No more sneak attack.

[Roderick_BR]

...96d6?

... Is he playing with a 192th level rogue?

[Khantalas]

two words: Heavy Fortification. No more sneak attack.

Am I the only person who thinks that Heavy Fortification doesn't give immunity to critical hits, but rather, negates them? As in, you can be sneak attacked, but critical strikes don't affect you?

[SMDVogrin]

Am I the only person who thinks that Heavy Fortification doesn't give immunity to critical hits, but rather, negates them? As in, you can be sneak attacked, but critical strikes don't affect you?

Well, yes, you _can_ be sneak attacked - but the Sneak Attack is negated, so it doesn't do anything:

"When a ... sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the ... sneak attack is negated"
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...#fortification

[Renegade Paladin]

how can u flank alone? just with a tumble check?

The phantom threat spell. Of course, the rogue can't cast it; he'd have to get a magical device of some sort.