Thoughts on Thief-Acrobat

[TomTheRat]

So I'm about to hit my 6th level, got 5 of Rogue, and I'm kind of torn as to if I should start up on TA. Losing the rogue levels means losing a BAB, 2 skill points per level, and 2 dice of sneak attack (for the full TA package), but gaining 2*Roll With The Punches, full speed tumbling etc, +2 to AC, Imp Evasion, and some other cool perks.

Anyone have experience with the TA and have any advice?

[The Great Skenardo]

It's a very solid choice if your DM is fond of detailing dungeons or making encounters happen in areas that are more interesting than the standard 10X10 stone room with a door in it.
With a little imagination, A thief-acrobat can be incredible fun to play (especially with the advent of skill tricks).

However, if your specialty appears to be ranged sneak attacks or as a pure Trap-finder and door-opener, then the class might weaken you.

I once played a Monk/Thief-Acrobat that was incredibly fun to play, even if he sometimes had difficulty landing hits.

[TomTheRat]

Actually the character IS a trap monkey at the moment. Survivability has been an issue, and I'm hoping that the extra movement/abilities will give him a bit of an edge.

I have Precise Shot and PB Shot, and I'm considering grabbing Finesse, not so that he can really participate in combat, but just so that he's not useless in melee. The goal for him is to continue being the trap guy, but to still be able to help out in the other areas.

Halfling... of course.

[Fax Celestis]

Thief-Acrobat is good if you want to play the "you can't hit me" type character. Anything else is better represented through Exemplar (which I personally houserule to have 10+Int skill points per level, but that's another point entirely).

[Tach13]

I play a TA in one of my games (bit of an ADD character, a bit of everything is in his plans, lol),and some of his talents are extremely useful. Kip up and the ability to function prone can be a great talent in many circumstances. The AC bonus is really helpful, especially with a weight restricted Halfling. I'm actually looking to make him a bounce around and throw things character (taking Master Thrower when I reach the final pre-requisits), and the mismatch seeming levels are my way of making the character fit how I picture him (one prestige class just couldn't do it).

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I played a 3.0 Thief-Acrobat for a few levels. Back in those days, it was a 10-level class, but the core abilities didn't change much. The Great Skenardo offers some good advice. Though I do want to point out that the flavor of the Thief-Acrobat as a "second story man" does make the trap-finding and door-opening fit thematically. The skills necessary for that remain class skills, too. All you really lose out on if you wish to continue performing that role is the 2 extra skill points and further trapsense (which you'll only miss if the traps you find blow up in your face).

[TomTheRat]

Good to hear positive things about the class.

Fax: Exemplar is the next step, but I can't get that till 11th, so it fits -very- nicely. Especially with TA giving mastry of the movement based skills, and Exemplar letting me get more.

Any suggestions on the feat? Finesse will certainly let me do some damage in melee, but in terms of overall survivability, it doesn't make sense for my character to be wading into combat.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

What feats do you currently have?

I don't know if it's optimal, but Spring Attack certainly fits thematically. And, believe it or not, it can help you contribute to combat while upping your survival rate—spring into a flank, sneak attack, then spring out at least 10 ft. away, denying your opponent any full-attack based retaliation (let alone having issues retaliating without provoking an AoO from your flank-buddy due to its movement). Needs Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites, though.

Might want to look at those feats geared for Tumblers in PH2. You might see something you like there.

[Fax Celestis]

Quick Draw, for throwingness. You'll get good use from thrown weapons with a high dex and evasion.

[TomTheRat]

What feats do you currently have?

Regretfully PBS and Precise Shot. I saw him as an archer before I really understood the flanking rules. He's got a 20 dex, so the Finesse would be a huge boost.

[Fax Celestis]

Regretfully PBS and Precise Shot. I saw him as an archer before I really understood the flanking rules. He's got a 20 dex, so the Finesse would be a huge boost.

Definitely go with throwing weapons then. You could even leveldip Monk to be able to Flurry with Shuriken (and, if you have a decent Wis, get Wis to AC).

[TomTheRat]

Why throwing weapons rather than bows?

[Fax Celestis]

Thrown weapons can be used in melee as melee weapons, while bows cannot. Further, they're TWFable, while bows are not. Lastly, they're awesomer.

EDIT: However, if you have access to CScn, you might want to grab yourself a repeating crossbow with a crossbow bayonet, which'd be nifty to the extreme.

[Ranis]

What book is Exemplar in, out of curiosity?

[Amiria]

An elvencraft bow (RoW) can be used in melee without penalty. If it is a longbow (quarterstaff in melee) it can also be used for TWF.

Exemplar is from Complete Adventurer.

[JellyPooga]

I really like the Thief Acrobat myself. The lack of Sneak Attack and 2 less skills is a small price to pay for what you get out of those 5 levels.

I would recommend tyring to get the Elusive Target feat. TA encurages a melee rogue (despite the lack of Sneak Attack progression) and Elusive Target is an almost perfect addition to the TA abilities. You are 3 feats away from it though (I think you need Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites).

I would definitely recommend steering clear of Exemplar. As far as PrC's go, it's fairly pointless. To get into the class, you need to be very good at a skill (including burning a feat on Skill Focus) and all the class does is make that skill better. With TA, you'll have Skill Mastery for a few skills anyway, so all you'll get out of Exemplar is the ability to share your skill with others. Unless the rest of your party is going to need these extra skills (i.e. they have fairly similar characters to yours) in themselves, you're wasting your time.

My recommendation after TA would be to try for Invisible Blade. You already have one of the Prerequisites. If you go for TWF thrower, you'll be picking up the rest of them anyway and the abilities of Invisible Blade dovetail nicely with the sort of character you appear to be developing.

[NullAshton]

Don't forget to get the elusive target tactics in Complete Warrior. The feat is just too good to pass up if you want a 'Can't touch this' character. Stuff such as the first attack from your declared dodge target automatically missing, for example.

[TomTheRat]

I won't argue that Exemplar isn't kind of dorky, but being able to take 10 on Search, Disarm, MS and Hide is extremely pimp. Adding a +4 competence to my Search/Disarm makes my character into the ultimate trap disabling machine, and really, thats what he's there for. I doubt I would get more than a few levels in it anyway.

Where is Invisible Blade?

[Ashes]

I used to great effect along with the Outrunner (or something, the Shifter PrC from Races of Eberron). Great synergy there.

[JellyPooga]

I won't argue that Exemplar isn't kind of dorky, but being able to take 10 on Search, Disarm, MS and Hide is extremely pimp. Adding a +4 competence to my Search/Disarm makes my character into the ultimate trap disabling machine, and really, thats what he's there for. I doubt I would get more than a few levels in it anyway.

Where is Invisible Blade?

Invisible Blade's in Complete Warrior.

I won't disagree with what you say about Exemplar, but the kind of bonus' you have to have on a skill to take the class, makes the class irrelevant. So what if you can take 10 on a search in combat? Outside of combat you're getting at least +13 on the roll anyway (and that's with no Int mod). You're already a master at doing the task, what do you need more for? Trust me, time is better spent elsewhere.

[TomTheRat]

Invisible Blade's in Complete Warrior.

I won't disagree with what you say about Exemplar, but the kind of bonus' you have to have on a skill to take the class, makes the class irrelevant. So what if you can take 10 on a search in combat? Outside of combat you're getting at least +13 on the roll anyway (and that's with no Int mod). You're already a master at doing the task, what do you need more for? Trust me, time is better spent elsewhere.

I guess the reason I'm so paranoid is that it's a ToEE game. I'm suspecting that there will be several metric tons of "disarm or die" style traps deeper in. I want to be guaranteed to dispose of them. Plus, my GM likes to do a sort of DDO style xp bonus for disarming traps and such.

My int of 14 would give me +15 at 11th, Skill Focus: Search brings that to 18, and then having a take-10 in every situation would mean catching just about every trap for free.

[JellyPooga]

Fair doo's

Just out of curiostiy, what are the other members of the party?

[SpiderBrigade]

I tend to think you really need Cscn to make the Thief-Acrobat live up to it's potential, mainly due to the skill tricks. Otherwise you rarely find yourself in situations where the limited Slow Fall, Kip Up, and Steady Stance will be useful. Seriously, how often do you have to fight while balancing? Is it often enough to make that class feature better than more sneak attack dice? With skill tricks, you can put yourself in the position to use these abilities every fight. Well, really, it's mostly just Corner Perch.

Also, I find it interesting to note that the Thief-Acrobat illustrated in Complete Adventurer already has a crossbow with a bayonet on it, athough there weren't rules for it yet. I think the whisper gnome in Races of Stone has one as well...

[JellyPooga]

I tend to think you really need Cscn to make the Thief-Acrobat live up to it's potential, mainly due to the skill tricks. Otherwise you rarely find yourself in situations where the limited Slow Fall, Kip Up, and Steady Stance will be useful. Seriously, how often do you have to fight while balancing?

When you have a pair of Sandles of Balancing (or whatever they're called) and are balancing on a vertical surface just above the head of your foe.

[TomTheRat]

Earth Genasi Fighter, Sun Elf Mage, Half-Celestial Paladin (100 on a ressurection roll, DM made a level progression like Half-Dragon for it), Nezumi Monk, and last session our Cleric and Ranger died, so they have yet to make new characters.

Spider: Roll with the punches + Imp Evasion + bonus AC = living rogue.

Aside: Why the hell does Invisible Blade, clearly a melee PrC have 2 ranged attack feats as prerequisites? It should totally be Weapon Finesse and SF: Bluff or something like that.

[Fax Celestis]

Earth Genasi Fighter, Sun Elf Mage, Half-Celestial Paladin (100 on a ressurection roll, DM made a level progression like Half-Dragon for it), Nezumi Monk, and last session our Cleric and Ranger died, so they have yet to make new characters.

Spider: Roll with the punches + Imp Evasion + bonus AC = living rogue.

Aside: Why the hell does Invisible Blade, clearly a melee PrC have 2 ranged attack feats as prerequisites? It should totally be Weapon Finesse and SF: Bluff or something like that.

If you do decide to go throwing ninja skill trick monkey of doom, I'd suggest hitting Master Thrower instead of Invisible Blade. Your existing feats compliment the class, and you'd do well with throwing stuff everywhere.

PS: The Dagger Sneak Attack applies to thrown daggers, hence the ranged prereqs.

[JellyPooga]

Earth Genasi Fighter, Sun Elf Mage, Half-Celestial Paladin (100 on a ressurection roll, DM made a level progression like Half-Dragon for it), Nezumi Monk, and last session our Cleric and Ranger died, so they have yet to make new characters.

coo, big party

Spider: Roll with the punches + Imp Evasion + bonus AC = living rogue.

too true

Aside: Why the hell does Invisible Blade, clearly a melee PrC have 2 ranged attack feats as prerequisites? It should totally be Weapon Finesse and SF: Bluff or something like that.

Because it was originally supposed to be one 10 level class. Where did the other half go? It's called the Master Thrower PrC. (apparently anyway). why it kept the prereqs I don't know.

[TomTheRat]

I tend to think you really need Cscn to make the Thief-Acrobat live up to it's potential, mainly due to the skill tricks.

Cscn?


Master Thrower looks pretty awesome (ranged trips? yes sir!) but I worry about finding enough magical thrown weapons for it to be truly viable. Also, I lose the ability to progress my trapping skills.

[JellyPooga]

Cscn?


Master Thrower looks pretty awesome (ranged trips? yes sir!) but I worry about finding enough magical thrown weapons for it to be truly viable. Also, I lose the ability to progress my trapping skills.

Complete Scoundrel

[throwing weapon] of Returning is the answer.

[Fax Celestis]

Cscn?


Master Thrower looks pretty awesome (ranged trips? yes sir!) but I worry about finding enough magical thrown weapons for it to be truly viable. Also, I lose the ability to progress my trapping skills.

You only need one magical throwing weapon: the returning and teleporting properties are your friends.