Clerics vs Wizards

[Laesin]

Does anyone here agree with me that clerics are significantly more powerful than wizards? They have better HD, better saves (one based off their primary stat),better armour, better weapons, domain granted abilities, more spells per day, access to their full spell list and their spells are comparable in power. If someone can show me a reason this isn't an issue I'ld be grateful.

[Cybren]

Wizards are better for the reason that the cleric domains that get wizard spells are so good

[Arbitrarity]

The wizard is the wizard. He has battlefield control. He has the only safety spells (MMM).

Course, if the cleric loads up with miracles, he can do about the same, but for his 9'th level slots.

Let's see what the wizard has that the cleric doesn't at 9th level spells.

Foresight, freedom, imprisonment, prismatic sphere, disjunction. Refuge, teleport circle, dominate monster, mass hold monster, Power word kill, useless evocation, shades, weird, wish, wail of the banshee, SHAPECHANGE, TIMESTOP.

Cleric has storm of vengeance, miracle, mass heal, and true ressurection.

The cleric is definately better for buffing, but once you get into that level of spells, wizards have way better spell selection. Splatbooks make it worse. Domains can help a bit, but not that much.

[Bears With Lasers]

I will show you a whole bunch of reasons this isn't an issue:

Alarm, Grease, Sleep, Color Spray, Disguise Self, Ray of Enfeeblement, Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Glitterdust, Web, See Invisibility, Shatter, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Alter Self, Rope Trick, Phantom Steed, Deep Slumber, Major Image, Ray of Exhaustion, Blink, Fly, Haste, Slow, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Resilient Sphere, Greater Invisibility, Confusion, Enervation, Fear, Polymorph, Teleport, Cloudkill, Telepathic Bond, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Wall of Force, Baleful Polymorph, Overland Flight, Acid Fog, Greater Heroism, Contingency, Disintegrate, Spell Turning, Magnificent Mansion, Greater Teleport, Greater Arcane Sight, Insanity, Forcecage, Finger of Death, Mind Blank, Prismatic Wall, Maze, Moment of Prescience, Irresistible Dance, Greater Shadow Evocation, Imprisonment, Disjunction, Teleportation Circle, Foresight, Dominate Monster, Crushing Hand, Shapechange, Time Stop.

[Tellah]

their spells are comparable in power

Nope, not even close. Divine spells are significantly weaker in terms of damage (if you're into that sort of thing) and utility. See: Invisibility, Hold Monster, Mordenkainen's Disjnuction, Major Creation, Polymorph, Alter Self, Power Word: X, Ray of Enfeeblement, Solid Fog and a hundred others.

Edit: holy crap it's a bear ninja get in the choppa!

[Cybren]

Timestop and celerity is all the wizard needs though.
infact calling the wizard batman is kind of innacurate since batman had to come up with really complex plans when the wizard pretty much has the same spells that do everything.

[Orzel]

Most of the cleric's advantages over the wizards don't come itno play much shortly after low level. Wizard's can mimic or negate the strengths of other classes better than cleric. The clerics's HD, BAB, and Saves only put them over wizards when surprise is involved. Otherwise a Wizard could cast a few spells and gain decent to excellent defense.

[RandomNPC]

what are you saying the wizard can't emulate other classes? need a fighter? gate in the three from last town over that owe you a few favors, and have them bring a rogue and a monk with them. need a barb? cast rage on the monk. need healing? gate in a cleric! wait... that defeats the purpose.

[Cruiser1]

A Cleric can cast Miracle to duplicate any Wizard spell up to 7th level. That's any spell in existence! A Wizard can only cast spells they've prepared that day, and can only ever cast spells they've bought and scribed in their spellbook. Miracle allows a Cleric to combine the spontaneousness of the Sorcerer with a much greater spell selection than the Wizard.

A Wizard can cast Wish to duplicate a Cleric spell up to 6th level, but only if that spell isn't from a prohibited school, and also casting that one spell costs the Wizard 5000 XP! Lame! The Cleric can duplicate spells with Miracle for free. Clerics are better than Wizards, because a Cleric can be a Wizard, but not vice-versa.

Clerics can heal, Wizards can't. Clerics have hp, Wizards go down easily. Clerics have the highest will saves, Wizards have merely ok will saves. Clerics can be tanks, Wizards have to hide behind them. Clerics get all their spells for free, Wizards have to hunt them down and pay for them. Clerics have armor, Wizards wear dresses. Clerics pwn Wizards!

[Bears With Lasers]

A Cleric can cast Miracle to duplicate any Wizard spell up to 7th level. That's any spell in existence! A Wizard can only cast spells they're prepared that day, and can only ever cast spells they've bought and scribed in their spellbook. Miracle allows a Cleric to combine the spontaneousness of the Sorcerer with a much greater spell selection than the Wizard.

...except that he's only going to ready, what, four Miracles? That just isn't up to snuff.
Not to mention all those levels BEFORE 17th.

Yes, Miracle is great.
A 16th level or under cleric doesn't have it. A 20th level cleric is going to be memorizing a Foresight or two, a couple of Miracles to emulate the Wu Jen's Giant Size, leaving him all of a couple free Miracles.
Sure, the cleric can be a wizard... for a couple of spells a day. Doesn't count.

Clerics can heal, Wizards can't. Clerics have hp, Wizards go down easily. Clerics have the highest will saves, Wizards have merely ok will saves. Clerics can be tanks, Wizards have to hide behind them. Clerics get all their spells for free, Wizards have to hunt them down and pay for them. Clerics have armor, Wizards wear dresses. Clerics pwn Wizards!

All of this is balanced out by the fact that wizard spells are just that much better at every spell level. I gave a list above.

[Orzel]

If you hit a wizard with any weapon or spell, they lose.
But you actually have to hit a wizard with the weapon or spell.

I could buy WotC and rename it to OMG Monkeys!
But I actually have to get the mony to buy WotC.

[JaronK]

Well, a Cleric with the right domain (animal I think) can cast Divine Persitant Shapechange and turn into a Black Ethergaunt, and thus become a Wizard, so that's worth something...

[PaladinBoy]

...except that he's only going to ready, what, four Miracles? That just isn't up to snuff.
Not to mention all those levels BEFORE 17th.

I agree with that. Just because the cleric gets miracle doesn't make him better than the wizard.

Sure, the cleric can be a wizard... for a couple of spells a day. Doesn't count.

...........

Okay...... the wizard can only do what he does for as long as he has spell slots, just like the cleric.

Doesn't even really matter because a cleric's job is not to be the wizard. The cleric heals and tanks.

All of this is balanced out by the fact that wizard spells are just that much better at every spell level. I gave a list above.

Depends on the job.

If you need a healer, all those "better" wizard spells are not going to be much good.

[Seatbelt]

Wizards wear dresses. I think this proves it right there. :P

[Cybren]

I agree with that. Just because the cleric gets miracle doesn't make him better than the wizard.



...........

Okay...... the wizard can only do what he does for as long as he has spell slots, just like the cleric.

Doesn't even really matter because a cleric's job is not to be the wizard. The cleric heals and tanks.



Depends on the job.

If you need a healer, all those "better" wizard spells are not going to be much good.

Well in a party situation yeah sure. In the context of 1 on 1 comparison though the cleric isn't as powerful.
Rogues aren't as powerful as either of them, and people, even powergamers, still like having them in groups

[Bears With Lasers]

Paladin: the point is the cleric can only do the wizard thing for as long as he has Miracles, which is like two to four. It's an important point, at least when someone says "Miracle duplicates wizard spells, so clerics can be wizards!"

No, wizards can't heal. Although a wizard could teleport you to a temple where you could purchase healing pretty cheaply, I suppose.
Nevertheless, the wizard spell list is vastly more powerful (except in that one area).

[Jack Mann]

But the wizard has enough spell slots to do so pretty much all day long (at least, by the time the cleric has Miracle). The cleric just doesn't have the spell slots to cast that many arcane spells. The wizard has all of his pre-seventh level spell slots to do this, and he has level eight and nine spells to throw around if need be.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Why pit them against each other? A team of four wizards is less savory than a team of three wizards and a cleric due entirely to utility, especially if you aren't high-level yet.

[Laesin]

I'll grant a Wizard with a large spell list is superior in some ways to a cleric, but a 20 wiz vs a 20 cleric has spent a not insignificant potion of his wealth on those spells, wealth that the cleric has spent on magic items to improve his abilities. The cleric has a distinct advantage in that.

[Cybren]

Why pit them against each other? A team of four wizards is less savory than a team of three wizards and a cleric due entirely to utility, especially if you aren't high-level yet.

I dunno a team of four wizards at level 20 is basically godly. One competent wizard usually screws of the DM plenty in a party of four.
Imagine four.
Woah.

[brian c]

Timestop and celerity is all the wizard needs though.
infact calling the wizard batman is kind of innacurate since batman had to come up with really complex plans when the wizard pretty much has the same spells that do everything.

wizard = batman is because of utility; the only downside to playing a wizard at high level is that your spells prepared are limited, you can't just use any spell at any time (but you know more spells than the sorceror so are usually still much more powerful). Not to say that wizards aren't still a Win button when played well, but playing that well ain't easy to do in terms of spell selection. Very much possible though.

[Emperor Tippy]

I dunno a team of four wizards at level 20 is basically godly. One competent wizard usually screws of the DM plenty in a party of four.
Imagine four.
Woah.

Its actually a fun game if you can get the DM to give you a use activated item for healing. But you should expect the party to do really, really epic things. Like destroy whole empires on Monday and end the blood war on Tuesday.

[The_Snark]

I dunno a team of four wizards at level 20 is basically godly. One competent wizard usually screws of the DM plenty in a party of four.
Imagine four.
Woah.

Four wizards means that the DM will be throwing a lot of flying golems, antimagic fields, and ridiculously executed stealth attacks. (As in, chronotyrn assassins who can somehow Plane Shift into the Magnificent Mansion.)

Clerics and wizards do different things. In the areas of debuffing, save-or-lose, and general control, the wizard's spell list is superior. For healing, the cleric's list is better, and it contains some fairly good spells in other categories. Buffing, the two are actually close to even—except when you count in the cleric's better proficiencies, HP, and such.

I wouldn't say the cleric's more powerful than the wizard, but either can give the other a whole lot of trouble.

[Orzel]

A team of 4 wizards means higher level wizards as enemies means lots of rerolling PCs.

[iceman]

This is why you go with the Mystic Theurge. You get the best of both worlds.

That being said the cleric has better, and more "built" in defenses than the wizard. These being the good saves to fort and will (with wisdom being the primary score for clerics), the ability to wear armor, better HD, the ability to step back and heal. While the wizard does have the better spell selection, hands down. But, the wizard still has to cast those spells before the cleric pulls out one of those fort save or die spells on the wizard.

[Bears With Lasers]

This is why you go with the Mystic Theurge. You get the best of both worlds.

No, you don't go mystic theurge. If you do, you don't get the best of either world.

That being said the cleric has better, and more "built" in defenses than the wizard. These being the good saves to fort and will (with wisdom being the primary score for clerics), the ability to wear armor, better HD, the ability to step back and heal. While the wizard does have the better spell selection, hands down. But, the wizard still has to cast those spells before the cleric pulls out one of those fort save or die spells on the wizard.

The wizard has defenses against those spells.

[Variable Arcana]

This is why you go with the Mystic Theurge. You get the best of both worlds.

Two parties face off in a great arena.

Party 1: Four Mystic Theurges

Party 2: Two Wizards and Two Clerics

At what level do you believe Party 1 stands any chance at all?

[Reinboom]

Wizards don't get healing spells? What kind of weird assumption is that!
To the miracle arguments: Wish.
To the no healing spells on a wizard: Synostodweomer , a level 7 healing spell for sorcerers and wizards from the spell compendium.

[AtomicKitKat]

Doesn't Vampiric Touch heal?

False Life also grants the Wizard as much as 50%(?) more HP(temporary), which puts him at 3/4 HP compared to the Cleric. Of course, at those levels, nobody uses HP for anything other than determining if you can be hit by a Power Word spell.

Cleric20 has 8+19*4.5=93(+Con Mod*20) HP. 123 HP, given a generous roll for Con. If he's really really lucky, the Cleric might have 200 HP. Without Constitution, the Cleric is looking at being blinded, useless(stunned) or dead. None of which even needs to be permanent. For a game measured in 6 second blocks, being useless on the order of minutes is a death sentence.

[Jack Mann]

Vampiric touch gives you temporary hit points, not healing.