In need of Anti Archer/Elf Tactics

[motivatedjanza]

I like elves. I respect elves. I think an elven archer is one of the scariest/dependable combatant on earth, depending on what side of the bow your on.

However, my one friend refuses to acknowledge this about a dwarf axeman. Actually, any dwarf. Actually, anything that doesn't have pointy ears, blonde hair, and an affinity for animals and archery.

Yes, at some point in a young gamers life there comes a time when your jerk of a friend pushes you too far, its time for you and him to race-rumble. It's stupid, its pointless, and it doesn't prove anything. Yes, I know. But, it means a lot to me and any haters of elf(or anything else)-supremicists.

Here's the layout we've come up with. 4 characters each. One combatant, one divine, one arcane, and one scout. We're maximizing hit dice so that they are the best of the best. Starting levels gonna be 5-10, though I can see him going up to 15. We're just sticking with the PHB, he's a wee bit of a noob. Also, the battle arena's just your standard Thunderdome. A good bit of room to give his elves a couple of shots before the melee. There's a bit of a "buffing zone" before entering the arena. Should help me out a lot.

Anywho, we haven't rolled our abilities yet but here's his characters:

Elf Ranger: The most fearsome of all elves, I know, I know. He's got a composite longbow, of course, and a longsword. However, there's been talk of giving him a glaive.
Elf Fighter: Another archer, although he's gonna be packing a greatsword. No armor decisions yet on him.
Elf Paladin: Another greatsword-user, this time in full plate. This will definately make him harder to kill, but his archery-ability is going to go down. He's gonna get a bow anyway.
Elf Wizard: Longsword and composite long. I can see a lot of offensive spells coming from this guy, might not be the weak link I'm hoping to find, though.

And here's my team:
Dwarf Fighter/Barbarian: Big old greataxe. Breast-plate so as I still get increased speed. I might strap on a ranged weapon but it would be foolish to try to take elves on at a range. This guy's probably my prime character.
Dwarf Ranger: Two-hander. Dwarven waraxe/Hand axe. Favored enemy, elves. My best ranged combatant, even though he'll be my secondary melee by default.
Dwarven Cleric/Paladin: My healer, which he lacks. I'm putting on a paladin or two so he can pull his own weight in melee though. Full plate more likely than not. Martial weapons would help. LOTS of buff spells.
Dwarf Wizard: Quite possibly my weakest. However, he's holding my trump card: Protection From Arrows. If that doesn't save my butt, what will!?! Other than that, he serves as the fire-ball wielding maniac I'm sure the elf will become.

I'd appreciate any tips I can get.

Finally, let it be understood that I am just a dwarf freak. He is an elf freak. I don't hate elves, but he just puts it on a bit thick sometimes.

[Ranis]

Do you have an unbiased DM?

[Dancing_Zephyr]

Use Windwall.

[Rigeld2]

And here's my team:
Dwarf Ranger: Two-hander. Dwarven waraxe/Hand axe. Favored enemy, elves. My best ranged combatant, even though he'll be my secondary melee by default.

Why bother with Ranger if hes going to be a secondary melee?

Dwarven Cleric/Paladin:

My healer, which he lacks. I'm putting on a paladin or two so he can pull his own weight in melee though. Full plate more likely than not. Martial weapons would help. LOTS of buff spells.

Dont bother with Paladin. Clerics can hold thier own in melee just fine.

Dwarf Wizard: Quite possibly my weakest. However, he's holding my trump card: Protection From Arrows. If that doesn't save my butt, what will!?! Other than that, he serves as the fire-ball wielding maniac I'm sure the elf will become.

Wind Wall >>> Protection from Arrows. Especially since PoA just gives a DR/magic, which is trivial to overcome. Grab a wand of Wind Wall and drop one in front of where your melees are going to be every round.

[motivatedjanza]

Gracious, and yes, the unbiased DM is going to be present. Even though, hah, he's a bit of a half-fiend freak. Says we're stupid for even trying to do this. But, he's sick of us arguing, so he'll put up with it. Wind Wall sounds nice. I'm just kinda paranoid about his paladin, which is why I made my own.

[Indon]

Your Wizard could use a Tower Shield. Just root it in the ground and use it as cover. Cover provides significant bonuses against ranged attacks, and then your wizard could cast spells on top of that to ward himself further.

If your intent is to close on them, remember that firing a longbow provides an attack of opportunity; use this against him by pinning his archers against walls. He isn't using monks or barbarians so he can't really outpace you (Oh, yeah, and have your Wizard cast Haste ASAP, and memorize a few Slows for the elves), and if they try to actually run, your guys have more stamina.

If he splits his guys up to get range, don't split up your meleers. Just take out one of them at a time (perhaps the one closest the wizard, to make sure you're still close enough to help if need be), if you're well-enough armored, you won't have to worry much about archery damage; your Cleric/Paladin could outheal it and not even need to cast defensively.

[motivatedjanza]

Thanks, and I don't think armor is much of an issue. Just my ranger I'm worried about. I went with him since a low-grade healer helps a lot and I believe rangers to be the most powerful out of the group of core classes we've deemed "scouts". Meaning rogues, monks, rangers, and bards.

[Indon]

Well, your Ranger can stick near your Wizard and heal/defend him if need be, while a Monk or a rogue would have to close, and a Bard's role would overlap a lot with the Wizard if you kept him back, so your choice is tactically sound if you don't want your wizard moving a lot.

[lord_khaine]

i think the best advice i can give you is to sunder the bows as soon as you get into melee range, since bows isnt melee weapons this will be pretty easy.

besides that i think trip will be your friend, your stability will protect you from being tripped yourself, and being tripped suck for a archer.

[motivatedjanza]

Honestly, I really, really like the idea of someone sticking with the wizard. However, I think I'll go cleric there while my axe-wielding Ranger and Barb/Fighter go around chopping some ears up. So they're my closers. I think you're right about going after them one by one though. That way I can flank, and if I keep the pressure up my superior melee stats should prevail. Thanks!

[Jasdoif]

Fireballs? What? Drop a stinking cloud on top of them. Watch them not be able to cast, attack, or move at their best speed for, say, a minimum of three rounds (the one they start in the cloud, and 2 rounds thereafter). Close your melee guys to melee range in that time. Once you get there, you can double-move or charge 40ft, further then their 30ft speed.

Remember, they're elves, they have a penalty to their Constitution score and thus their Fortitude saves. And even if they make the save, you have total concealment because of the cloud.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Maximizing HP rolls greatly favors the Elves by making the Con difference not matter as much. Might want to talk about taking the average instead.

[Begle1]

He's probably going to use mobility to his advantage. Elves with ranged weapons can slaughter melee dwarves as long as they're more than 10 feet away.

Expect his wizard to throw flies, greases, web's, etc. Counteract with Hastes, Freedom of Movements, flies and dispells.

[Rigeld2]

Honestly, I really, really like the idea of someone sticking with the wizard. However, I think I'll go cleric there while my axe-wielding Ranger and Barb/Fighter go around chopping some ears up. So they're my closers. I think you're right about going after them one by one though. That way I can flank, and if I keep the pressure up my superior melee stats should prevail. Thanks!

Cleric is just as good (better with buffs) as a Ranger in melee. Keep the Ranger in back sniping (cause thats what theyre good at) and put the Cleric up front. Also, it allows the healer to... heal the "tanks".

[motivatedjanza]

See, if I keep my ranger back than it's "tank". Wouldn't it be better to have both him and the Barbarian up front? Or do yinz guys really think my cleric is gonna be able to hold his own that well?

[Rigeld2]

Theres plenty of buffs that bring a Cleric at->above a Ranger in melee.
First round, Wind Wall. Cleric casts a buff.
Stay inside the Wind Wall until your buffs are done.
Cast another Wind Wall encircling as many of his people as you can. Then charge.

[Maxwell]

Try to engage the archers as soon as possible. Have your wizard Dimension Door a dwarf fighter into the middle of the elves. The real kicker, arm the fighter with a spiked chain. Attacks of oppurtunity galore. Another way of distracting the archers is to cast some of the Summon Monsters spells. You could possibly make all their archery feats useless. Just an idea.

[Piccamo]

Make sure you have elfbane weapons ;) Your cleric will be far better than your ranger...why not ditch the ranger, too?

[Lolzords]

[QUOTE=Rigeld2;2332139]Why bother with Ranger if hes going to be a secondary melee?


On the second or so paragraph he says that they need One combatant(sp?), one divine, one arcane and one scout.

The ranger will probably serve as the best choice for this slot.

[Miles Invictus]

How large is this Thunderdome?

Bring along Black Tentacles. Archers are more mobile than melee fighters, so you have to lock down their movement before using Stinking Cloud to drown them in a pool of their own vomit. When they escape, your melee types go in and beat the crap out of them.

I would equip all of your PCs with Boots of Striding and Springing, just to make sure his archers can't whittle away at you.

Oh, and something else to consider -- all of his people use two-handed weapons. You cannot use two-handed weapons in a grapple.

[Flying Elephant]

*sigh* It has to be said. If you are going to be at levels 7+ you should use a team of clerics and wizards. Have your clerics cast divine power and be melee/casters, and use your wizards for the tactics other people have said.

[jjpickar]

Just make a ranged cleric with Zen Archery if you must have a scout. Divine power/righteous +extra cheese will make rangers weep.

[Fhaolan]

I'm not entirely sure if this would work (I'm not an min/max guru), but I would think that reach weapons would be very useful for the character tasked with being the anti-archer guy. Guisarme + spiked armor to maximize the chances of AoO from them using a bow in melee. You could go spiked chain for the same effect, but that costs a feat and you run the risk of the 'Ah well, it was the spiked chain, not the dwarf, everyone *knows* that spiked chains are broken.' reaction.

Using the Cleric as the backup is a good idea. It's not that you don't want the Cleric up-front-and-personal, it's that when something goes badly wrong you want the Cleric free to move in and do whatever needs to be done. Buffing, healing, that extra smackdown to drop an enemy, etc. The Cleric is your 'reserve', to use military terms. Since the Cleric is perfectly capable of holding his own in combat, and as a full spellcaster, and as the primary healer, it just makes sense to hold him back. Let everyone else get stuck in, see where a heavy-hitter/spellcaster would do the most good, and then send in the Cleric.

In RL combat, one of the the biggest factors is terrain. If you're in a Thunderdome kind of setup, *make* terrain. Have the spellcasters drop barriers and restrictions on the battlefields. Clouds, walls (especially Wind Walls versus archers), etc. The archers (and spellcasters) are only as good as their line of sight. If they can't snipe, their effectiveness is reduced. That gives your heavy melee guys a chance. Of course, on average you're going to be moving slower than the elves, if you can drop barriers that affect the elves, but your melee tanks are immune to, that's much better. Freedom of Movement, Hastes, that kind of stuff.

Oh, just as a note: It may not matter, but if the other side is relying on archers and the like, make sure that the rules of encumberance are being followed. The chances of an archer actually running out of arrows is relatively small, but unless they have an magical everful quiver of some kind there is always the chance.

[Woot Spitum]

By the way, armor never slows dwarves down, so you can have your full plate and max base speed.

[The_Snark]

I'll go for a bit of character-by-character advice.

And here's my team:
Dwarf Fighter/Barbarian: Big old greataxe. Breast-plate so as I still get increased speed. I might strap on a ranged weapon but it would be foolish to try to take elves on at a range. This guy's probably my prime character.

Sounds good. I'm not sure if you meant a multiclass fighter/barbarian or that you hadn't decided yet, but either one works.

Dwarf Ranger: Two-hander. Dwarven waraxe/Hand axe. Favored enemy, elves. My best ranged combatant, even though he'll be my secondary melee by default.

Ranger... As scouts go, he'll be all right, I guess.

Dwarven Cleric/Paladin: My healer, which he lacks. I'm putting on a paladin or two so he can pull his own weight in melee though. Full plate more likely than not. Martial weapons would help. LOTS of buff spells.

I'd say don't bother with the paladin levels, really—they aren't going to give you more than a +1 to attacks, and most of the special abilities you get are based off Charisma, hardly the dwarf's strong point. A cleric packing tons of buffs is strong enough. Divine Power, probably Divine Favor if you're above level 6, Bull's Strength if you weren't high-level enough for Divine Power, Righteous Might if you can get it. Also make sure you've got some Wind Walls, as those are invaluable battlefield control spells.

Dwarf Wizard: Quite possibly my weakest. However, he's holding my trump card: Protection From Arrows. If that doesn't save my butt, what will!?! Other than that, he serves as the fire-ball wielding maniac I'm sure the elf will become.

Oh, not your weakest. As has been said, Wind Wall is superior to Protection from Arrows. Don't bother with Fireballs much; instead, go for limiting the enemy's mobility. Web keeps their archers in one place so that they can be picked off, although Reflex is probably not the save you want to target against archer-y elves. Evard's Black Tentacles is great, and you might want to use that instead of Web. Haste will mean your dwarves can suddenly close with the enemy a lot faster. Pack a Dispel, too, in case the enemy wizard starts getting smart with his effects. Slow is nasty against archers; suddenly they can't use Rapid Shot and they can't keep distance and attack in the same round. Dimension Door can put one of your dwarven pals right next to an irritatingly distant enemy. Solid Fog is another great, great spell; it blocks ranged weapons and will slow your enemies down to a crawl, without much they can do about it.

So, essentials:
-Wind Walls. Your cleric should have one, your wizard should have one, maybe even your ranger if he's high-level enough, so that you can deny your enemies the first shot. It should be the very first thing you do, unless you can hit all four enemies with a Black Tentacles. Put it right in the middle of the dome so that it covers you as long as possible, and they'd have to move closer to you to shoot around it.
-Dispel Magic. Not quite as essential, but it'll counter Fly nicely. Wizard and Cleric should each keep one prepped.
-Battlefield control for your Wizard. This means Black Tentacles, Stinking Cloud, Grease, and maybe Glitterdust should be high on your Wizard's list. Dominate and Baleful Polymorph are instant killers, but they don't have much range.

My advice is to stay away from Fireballs and such. They look cool, and they're fun, but when it comes down to dealing 20 damage to an area or preventing everyone in that area from moving (with Black Tentacles or Solid Fog), it's better to choose the second option, since your melee dwarves will chop up the enemy if they can stay close.

[Kel_Arath]

have the cleric and wizard both go summon whore, it will destroy. then have your fighter run to the most archer based one and destroy that mo. as for his wizard, perhaps a little grapling?

[Solo]

Shatter his weapons.
(By using the Shatter spell)

[Dr. Weasel]

have the cleric and wizard both go summon whore

That is probably not the best move since summoning takes an entire turn and, being archers, they can easily interrupt your spells from a range. Around level 7 (to pull an average-ish number out of nowhere) you'll probably make the concentration checks against their damage, but there always is a chance you will fail that you won't have with 'slow' and 'black tentacles'

[Draz74]

I think your tank-role dwarf should be a Grappling specialist Barbarian with spiked armor. With Vicious spikes, if you can afford them.

Watch him have a little wrestling match with the Elf Wizard.

We'd all be able to give much more specific advice if you told us the level at which the game was going to be played.

Oh, and for a duel like this, I strongly recommend point buy instead of rolling for abilities.

[The Valiant Turtle]

Don't forget about your familiar and animal companion. I'd actually consider turning the cleric into a Druid just for the companion. I think I'd go for speedy grapplers for animal companions. I'm not sure what I'd do for a familiar, but if it can get into melee range, it might be able to get plenty of AoO's.

Don't ignore shields. This is one case where sword and (Tower) board can be very good. In addition to the spells already mentioned, the good old obscuring mist could really be helpful as well. They can't shoot what they can't see. There is also darkness, which doesn't affect how well you see them at all. There is also the always handy ray of enfeeblement to make them over-burdened by their equipment. It might be worth making your scout a rogue or something else with Use Magic Device. A wand with one of those first level spells can be easily used with a decent UMD, and frees up your casters to use their higher level spells. I also just noticed that blindness/deafness is Medium range and targets their fort save. I'd say it makes a great opener!

Under no circumstance do you want to throw a fireball! Your priorities are locking them down, making them not able to see you and targeting their fort saves.