The Benefits of Being Dead

[JellyPooga]

This is a thread for all those peeps out there who aren't subscribers of the "all undead are automatically homicidal maniacs" school of thought (grrr at all those who do ...not really ...but seriously, grr ...tee hee hee ).

With that particular notion happily disregarded (for the purposes of this thread only...I've argued with people about the above mentioned school of thought before and probably will do again, but not right now), what is peoples opinion of Undead PC's/non-bad guy NPC's?

Specifically;

Do the benefits of Undeath outweigh the LA?
How well do you think the Undead can function with a living party?
Which Undead make good PC's? Why?

On a side note, Undead minions:

Are they any better in a living party than Undead PC's? If so, Why?
What Undead make good minions?
What Classes make for good minion-hoarders?

In short, I'd like to know what people think about the Undead in general aside from the whole moral aspect of playing one (not whether it's right to pretend that you're dead for the purpose of a game, but the whole Undead Alignment argument). The specifics mentioned above are just a couple of thoughts on the subject that I thought might pique at least a couple of interests.

Ooo, there's a thought...If anyone has any cool ideas for/stories about Undead PC's (played or unplayed) and how they overcome the particular problems associated with their...condition...I'd like to hear them.

P.S. Oh, I'd quite like this thread not to be bogged in 'optimal' jargon. I know that a the answers to a couple of the questions I asked above will be based on crunch, but I'm also after flavour + fluff as much as I am mechanics.
Ta

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Undead get a lot of immunities, including crits/sneak attacks, mind affecting stuff, poison, sleep, death effects, energy drain, anything requiring a Fort save (unless it also affects objects), or stat damage to it's physical stats, among others. This is very nifty.

However, it has one glaring weakness: Cleric = pwn.

Unless you got some serious Turn Resistance or some Bolstering, any equal-level cleric comes along, and you're pwnt hard.

I'd never play an undead unless I had an evil cleric behind me to bolster, and I'd never play an undead with a party that has a cleric who channels positive energy. If the opponent undead has more HD than me, then I end up getting turned first. No thanks.

Undead minions are likewise not as powerful as one might think, unless you're an evil cleric able to bolster/unahllow/desecrate to keep good clerics from turning them into oblivion.

[Kultrum]

Undead get a lot of immunities, including crits/sneak attacks, mind affecting stuff, poison, sleep, death effects, energy drain, anything requiring a Fort save (unless it also affects objects), or stat damage to it's physical stats, among others. This is very nifty.

However, it has one glaring weakness: Cleric = pwn.

Unless you got some serious Turn Resistance or some Bolstering, any equal-level cleric comes along, and you're pwnt hard.

I'd never play an undead unless I had an evil cleric behind me to bolster, and I'd never play an undead with a party that has a cleric who channels positive energy. If the opponent undead has more HD than me, then I end up getting turned first. No thanks.

Undead minions are likewise not as powerful as one might think, unless you're an evil cleric able to bolster/unahllow/desecrate to keep good clerics from turning them into oblivion.

tee hee kill the cleric, raise him as a zombie make him turn himself hours of fun
but seriously if you've got a cleric or are a cleric being undead rocks and great for flavor and if you want good undead try the deathless template in the book of exalted deeds lots of fun

[Kultrum]

also if you like the idea of dead PCs might i suggest Ghostwalk its a campaign setting where death doesn't mean the end of adventures only the begining.

[Kel_Arath]

holla! being undead is cool cept the whole not having pretty skin! but really, its useful except for one fatal flaw, once you hit 0, your dead... (again)

[JellyPooga]

However, it has one glaring weakness: Cleric = pwn.

True, but many (well, I say many...I mean a couple) of the more playable Undead races have Turn Resistance to conteract their Level Adjustment (notably Ghoul/Ghast and Necropolitan) and any Undead can take Improved Turn Resistance (I think it's called anyways) for +4 on top of that. Layered on that, there are also magic items that increase ones TR too. For the adventuring Undead, being turned isn't as much a problem as it is for common dungeon Undead...even without a handy Bolstering Cleric on your side.

also if you like the idea of dead PCs might i suggest Ghostwalk its a campaign setting where death doesn't mean the end of adventures only the begining.

Care to elaborate? I've not heard of Ghostwalk before (or if I have, I've only heard the name, but nothing about it).

[Assassinfox]

Care to elaborate? I've not heard of Ghostwalk before (or if I have, I've only heard the name, but nothing about it).

Ghostwalk, a campaign setting taking place in the city of Manifest, built on catacombs and the gateway to the beyond. Has rules playing as ghosts. But, those ghosts aren't considered "undead", so it doesn't have a whole lot to do with this topic.

[JellyPooga]

holla! being undead is cool cept the whole not having pretty skin! but really, its useful except for one fatal flaw, once you hit 0, your dead... (again)

Bah! Pretty skin is attainable through illusion...who needs it naturally?

There are certain ways around the 0HP=dead thing...

1) Be an Undead with energy drain and take the Necrotic Reserve Feat (I think it's called) which allows you to avoid said death 1/day (as long as you drain energy at some point beforehand)

2) Be an Undead without energy drain and take the Pale Master PrC. Upon attaining whatever level it is that you get the Str Drain touch attack, get the above mentioned feat for the same.

3) Be a Telflammar Shadowlord (unfortunately Forgotten Realms/DM's permission only) and have the Shadow Discorporation ability.

4) There is a kind of 'Undead Resurrection' spell in Libris Mortis (not sure of its details though).

5) Improved Toughness Feat

6) Be a Rogue or Rogue-ish class(I recommend Thief Acrobat) before (or after, before's better though) becoming Undead and simply avoid being hit.

7) Be a Spellcaster before turning Undead. Such spells as Hoard Life (Races of the Dragon) and Health stealing spells (Vampiric Touch) help negate this sort of thing.

8) Carry around something that oozes Negative Energy. Bask in its glow.

9) Create a use activated Magic Item that casts an Inflict spell (expensive though)

10) err...I'm running out now, so there is no 10...umm. yeah. That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

[Assassinfox]

There are certain ways around the 0HP=dead thing...

You're forgetting the most important one:

Do what the living do. DON'T GET REDUCED TO 0HP!

Unless you play characters who regularly go down to 0HP and then get brought back "from the brink", I fail to see how it's that bad of a disadvantage.

[JellyPooga]

Unless you play characters who regularly go down to 0HP and then get brought back "from the brink", I fail to see how it's that bad of a disadvantage.

I tend to play non-tank characters myself anyways, so for me its not (see No.6). However, some people try to tank Undead and find themselves dead again very quickly. For them, it is a pretty big one due to lack of Con for HP. Also, without Libris Mortis, once your Undead Dead, there's absolutely no coming back.

[Assassinfox]

I tend to play non-tank characters myself anyways, so for me its not (see No.6). However, some people try to tank Undead and find themselves dead again very quickly. For them, it is a pretty big one due to lack of Con for HP. Also, without Libris Mortis, once your Undead Dead, there's absolutely no coming back.

Just have a party Necro reanimate you. If you're gonna be playing an Undead party, there's no reason why you shouldn't have Libris Mortis.

[Starsinger]

Forsaken in the WoW RPG aren't destroyed at 0. Between -1 and -9 a forsaken is disabled and can't act, but is automatically stable. At -10 they're destroyed. There's a feat so raise dead can effect you. While Resurrection and True Resurrection revive you to your undead form (once you go undead, you never go back). But you're still vulnerable to turning. Nice LA 0 undead race though.

[JellyPooga]

Just have a party Necro reanimate you.

Wouldn't work. Even Skally-Wags and Zombsters turn to dust on 0HP and are un-raisable after that. Most playable/Intelligent Undead are made through being killed by one of what they are...once destroyed (0HP) the animating spirit is gone for good, no coming back. I'm not even sure if the spell in Libris Mortis brings back Intelligent Undead.

edit: just checked...Revive Undead works just like the mortal 'come back from the dead' spells, except there's a time limit on it (i.e. doesn't work on a dead undead after so long of being dead again)...sooo, retract my above statement.

[Zincorium]

In all seriousness, since most undead templates state that all your current and future HD become d12s (and the rest, by extension, probably should), and you lose any constitution bonus to HP, the best character to become an undead with is going to be a low constitution (elf, say) spellcaster, preferably one with a decent charisma for concentration checks. Rogues come in second, with tanks coming in dead (pun intended) last.

As far as survivability, in most living-oriented dungeons, being undead is very good. Poison, drowning, etc. all are harmless, making the average trap set much less likely to kill you. On the other hand, enemy clerics are a pain in your pasty posterior, and any necromantic adversary can take over your mind.

Necropolitan (Libris Mortis) is hands down the easiest undead template to play, without any alignment restrictions or LA (just a lost level and some xp).

[Variable Arcana]

Best way around the 0 hp = dead thing...


... be a Vampire or a Lich.

[JellyPooga]

I've always kinda liked the idea of playing a Deathlock. That Inflict Minor Wounds at will might not be particularly useful in combat, but it does ensure you're fresh for the next one.

I'm not sure about all Undead HD being d12, myself. Certainly all their racial HD, but not their Class HD unless it specifies. It is a bit of a kick in the teeth for low HD class Undead, but it does insert an element of balance into Undead with PC classes (otherwise why would anyone play an Undead Fighter or Barbarian when you get those juicy high HD anyway?)

I always feel a bit guilty about statting Necropolitan characters. They seem to get so much more out of Un-Life than any other Undead, except the very powerful (like Liches and Vampires).

[Assassinfox]

(otherwise why would anyone play an Undead Fighter or Barbarian when you get those juicy high HD anyway?)

... BAB and class features?

[storybookknight]

One of these days someone should make a Living Dead template similar to how Warforged are Living Constructs...

[Assassinfox]

One of these days someone should make a Living Dead template similar to how Warforged are Living Constructs...

* brain explodes *

How about a Deathless party? There aren't enough Deathless monsters/templates anyway.

[brian c]

However, it has one glaring weakness: Cleric = pwn.

I'm confused- are you talking about playing as an undead character, or just playing D&D?

/joking. Just kidding around about how clerics are overpowered, although I know wizards are even more so (at high levels) so no need to start that argument.

[averagejoe]

This is a thread for all those peeps out there who aren't subscribers of the "all undead are automatically homicidal maniacs" school of thought (grrr at all those who do ...not really ...but seriously, grr ...tee hee hee ).

Well, for starters I... awwww, maaaan. *looks at own sig* yep, looks like I can't join in on this one.

In all seriousness, though, one thought I had which I've been playing around with for awhile was to create a sort of "quasi undead," perhaps a living guy who got dealt a good dose of negative energy, or whatever reason the undead in world of warcraft aren't that undead. Anyways, since many of their immunities were so similar, my idea was to tweak a warforged, giving different stat adjustments and tweak the immunities a little. Just a thought on making undead more playable.

[Tor the Fallen]

Isn't there a feat or ability where an undead uses it's charisma mod in place of a con mod for the purpose of HP?

Also- what the poop do undead druids turn into?

[Armads]

Unholy Toughness is a special ability of the boneclaw which allows them to get the charisma mod to hp instead of con mod.

[Destro_Yersul]

Isn't there a feat or ability where an undead uses it's charisma mod in place of a con mod for the purpose of HP?

Also- what the poop do undead druids turn into?

Undead animals, if they take the monstrous feat to not lose wildshape.

[Khantalas]

One of these days someone should make a Living Dead template similar to how Warforged are Living Constructs...

...I am guilty of working on that thing.

I'm not sure about all Undead HD being d12, myself. Certainly all their racial HD, but not their Class HD unless it specifies. It is a bit of a kick in the teeth for low HD class Undead, but it does insert an element of balance into Undead with PC classes (otherwise why would anyone play an Undead Fighter or Barbarian when you get those juicy high HD anyway?)

Nope, it's all HD. See the Atropal Scion cleric at the back of Libris Mortis.

[JaronK]

Or while you're at it, the Necropolitan Wizard in Libris Mortis. All undead HD become D12s... which is there to offset the loss of your con mod. Usually, it's a negative trade, as a cleric with a Con of 16 loses 1 HP per level on average when he becomes undead.

JaronK

[Illiterate Scribe]

Benefits - immortal + no need of sustenance. That is very, very, effective.

[Jothki]

Why do undead have no Con, anyway?

[Khantalas]

Because Constitution indicates how enduring you are to effects that threaten your metabolism.

Undead have no metabolism.

[JellyPooga]

Benefits - immortal + no need of sustenance. That is very, very, effective.

Plus no need to sleep = who needs to make camp at night? All that time living parties spend asleep, you spend travelling. Technically, 'cos you never tire, you can run all that time as well. The undead should have the fastest armies around.

If you're an Undead in a living party, then it means that all the mortal members of your group can get a full nights sleep while you're on stag too (as long as you're not an arcane spellcaster and need to rest anyway)

Ah the weakness' of the living...

Hmm...Undead Bloodhound (PrC from CompAd)...unparallelled man-hunter