What does pun-pun mean to you.

[Emperor Demonking]

I have two questions to ask what does pun-pun mean to you.
What level do you think pun-pun is.

[Kaerou]

Pun-Pun was a fun joke for 2 minutes, that had me going 'heh, that works?'

Then came the 1000+ posts and threads :/

[Zincorium]

Last I checked? Level one. A paladin, oddly enough. But level five is the 'classic' build.

As far as what pun-pun means to me? Pun-pun is the poster kobold for shoddy editing and conceptual oversights on WotC's part. A symptom of the need they have to stat each and every concept out into an ability. Manipulate form did not need to be an ability gained by each sarruhk (sp?), but that's what they did. Same with all the divine powers.

It's also an example of how pervasive synergy and emergent effects can be. The best argument for how messed up the 'if you don't like it, use Rule 0' is. An excuse to restrict everything to the core books. A mixture of admirable skill and loathsome raw materials.

[Jack Mann]

Pun-Pun means a specific build involving abuse of assume supernatural ability and a creature from Serpent Kingdoms, giving the user, a kobold, the ability to gain any ability he wishes.

Pun-Pun is level five, at least to start with.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Level 1, at last sight. They got him down to the venerable human expert 1, but I think through some Pazuzu trickery, he's LE, and ready to assume all those near-infinite abilities from birth.

[NullAshton]

If I recall correctly, he's actually level 12 to start with.

[Morty]

He used to, but last time I've seen it, it was 5th level kobold Wizard/Divine Minion/Master of Many Forms.

[Variable Arcana]

A reminder that not every single spell, item, and monster description in the RAW has been thought through completely, and that there's a reason D&D requires one player to act as referee.

Perhaps more generally, a reminder of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

Though, seriously... how the writers could fail to see the potential abuse of an ability that permanently grants an ability to another without xp cost to either...

[Jannex]

Pun-pun, to me, represents everything I dislike most about D&D: over-"optimization", cheesing for cheesing's sake, and an utter disregard for anything remotely relating to character concept and roleplaying. Pun-pun is like the divine avatar of "video-game mentality," wherein coming up with the most twinked-out, abusive set of stats permissible under the RAW is a laudable goal. Even though I realize that the guy who first came up with Pun-pun never intended and never wanted the character to be played, I consider its existence a monument to everything I think is wrong with D&D, writ large. The micromanagement, the math, the systems-over-setting approach that seems so prevalent--over all this, Pun-pun is king.

Pun-pun is level NO. In other words, he does not exist, in the same way that Highlander II (and, depending on my mood, the Star Wars prequel trilogy) does not exist. If, in any game I run, play in, or come within 500 yards of participating in, something occurs to allow Pun-pun the possibility of existing, this will be sufficient cause for Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies.

That said, the version I read had him statted at level 5, though I fully believe that someone has managed to make him happen earlier than that.

[Telonius]

To me, Pun-Pun is a Greater Deity (Domain Portfolio: Law, Evil, Madness, Squirrel, Cheese, DM). Favored Weapon: "Blue Lightningbolt" (mithral javelin). He is the god of Metagaming and Rules Exploits. Some rumors say he is the manifestation of the DM within the gaming world. Having ascended to the height of cheesiness, he became aware of his existence as a theoretical construction within a fictional universe. Being the Lord of All Cheese, he knows it when he sees it. He is a very crafty deity. He is wise enough to alter the fabric of existence to prevent any other being from achieving even a fraction of his mighty power.

[Catch]

To me, Pun Pun is concrete evidence that PCs always need a DM around to cuff them a couple of times when they start thinking that they're smarter then they really are. Pun Pun is the incarnation of short-sighted munchkinery.

"You've never seen a Sarruhk, so you can't shapeshift into one. Also, rocks fall. You die."

Rule Zero > Cheese. Every single time.

[jjpickar]

I like Pun-pun. He proves that when people construct a world the major flaws will always turn out to be pretty disastrous. Plus, Pun-pun just sounds funny.

[martyboy74]

To me, Pun-Pun is a Greater Deity (Domain Portfolio: Law, Evil, Madness, Squirrel, Cheese, DM). Favored Weapon: "Blue Lightningbolt" (mithral javelin). He is the god of Metagaming and Rules Exploits. Some rumors say he is the manifestation of the DM within the gaming world. Having ascended to the height of cheesiness, he became aware of his existence as a theoretical construction within a fictional universe. Being the Lord of All Cheese, he knows it when he sees it. He is a very crafty deity. He is wise enough to alter the fabric of existence to prevent any other being from achieving even a fraction of his mighty power.

That's beatiful. Beatiful.

[Indon]

For me, it's the ultimate result of what happens when you view a roleplaying game as an opportunity to crunch numbers, rather than act out characters.

He lies at the end of a long, long slope, to be sure, but I feel the slope to be awfully slick.

[Arbitrarity]

Pun-Pun is the amalgamation of the results of WoTC not thinking about monsters, and about the interaction of certain abilities.

Pun-Pun is now level one, as he makes a DC 25 knowledge check (with some tricks) to learn about a CE corrupting being (in the fiendish codex, known as Pazazu) that grants a wish to any being saying its name thrice in succession, in an attempt to corrupt it to CE.

Of course, he wishes ring of three wishes, retrains (using PHB 2 rules?) a skill focus into assume supernatural ability (which is now legit, as he can assume a new form magically with wish).

Polymorph any object with his psycrystal into a viper, polymorph self into sarrukh, assume manipulate form, proceed. Couple of other methods abound, but that's the simple one.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I think everyone's being a bit too harsh on those who created our friend the kobold. He's not some sort of ultra-roll-players ultimate goal (cf. Stormwind Fallacy), except to those people who say:

L00K I CAN \/\/1N DnD WITH UR r00|_2!!!!1!! I 4M T3H R0X0R5!!!1!

Catch, do you seriously believe that anyone sensible has played PunPun? It's not an example of 'short-sighted munchkinery' because it's not designed to be used in a game. No-one is trying to break the game.

The whole point of him, and basically everything on the theoretical optimisation boards, is to show the WotC designers and playtesters that they need to be a bit more thorough. I once read an interview in which a WotC designer said that it was his biggest asset for reasserting balance.

Furthermore, there's always the fun factor. It's fun to try and find ways of destroying a character with immunity:nearly everything and stats:near infinite.

[Tormsskull]

Pun-pun, to me, represents everything I dislike most about D&D: over-"optimization", cheesing for cheesing's sake, and an utter disregard for anything remotely relating to character concept and roleplaying.

Will you marry me?

[MaxKaladin]

I have no idea what "Pun-Pun" is. I keep seeing references to this "Pun-Pun" but I have no idea who or what he/she/it is supposed to be. Thus, I suppose "Pun-Pun means "something people talk about that I don't understand" to me.

This thread has given me a bit of insight, I suppose. I gather it's a really "broken" kobold character of some kind that's made possible by sloppy rules and rules lawyering, but that's about it.

[Dark_Wind]

The whole point of him, and basically everything on the theoretical optimisation boards, is to show the WotC designers and playtesters that they need to be a bit more thorough. I once read an interview in which a WotC designer said that it was his biggest asset for reasserting balance.

Furthermore, there's always the fun factor. It's fun to try and find ways of destroying a character with immunity:nearly everything and stats:near infinite.

Quoted for veracity. I've never heard of anyone playing Pun-Pun, or any of that crazy stuff from Char-Op, though it has given rise to my joking "Oh, I know! I'm gonna play a Kobold Psion!" every so often.

The rules are imperfect, and we all know it. Most of us, I'd like to think, avoid exploiting promblems with the rules in actual games because, well, it ruins the fun for everyone else. That doesn't mean that looking over rulebooks and searching for loopholes for the hell of it isn't fun in and of itself, though.

[Arbitrarity]

Here.

Pun-Pun is the GOD of brokeness. He has every ability that ever existed, and can be created at the very least, by level 17. He can create his own abilities, and knows every spell as an at will Sp ability (quickened, etc). He has as many divine ranks and as high ability scores as he wants, and he can have effectively infinate HD.

When a player tries to call some sort of extraplanar being for broken reasons, a kobold with a viper around its shoulder often comes, and says "nice try".

Look around on this board for other examples.

[JaronK]

Pun Pun was originally just a numbers excercise. He's not cheesy... he's not intended to be played at all. He's essencially a math problem, and he's in fact a very clever solution to that problem.

That said, in my games Pun Pun is an overdiety. He used his abilities to gain infiniate Wisdom and Intelligence, and once he had those he knew he was part of a game, and that said game would only function effectively so long as it was at least relatively balanced and the players were happy. As such, he made himself the God of Exploits and Things Which Are About To Be Exploits. As such, he is instantly aware if someone's going to do something which would be an exploit, and sends a Nut Pun (a divine squirrel servant of Pun Pun) to deal with the situation, usually in a manner which will stop the exploit but give the player a prize for originality so the player is happy.

JaronK

[MaxKaladin]

Pun-pun, to me, represents everything I dislike most about D&D: over-"optimization", cheesing for cheesing's sake, and an utter disregard for anything remotely relating to character concept and roleplaying. Pun-pun is like the divine avatar of "video-game mentality," wherein coming up with the most twinked-out, abusive set of stats permissible under the RAW is a laudable goal.

I have similar feelings, but I generally keep my mouth shut about it. I won't further derail the thread by complaining about it though.

[Ulzgoroth]

The earlier versions are just sloppy rules, I dunno about the one that works at level 1.

They made a Su ability that allows you to perform a number of outrageous changes on any 'scalykind' creature with duration instant, including granting it abilities (that you have, I think). You acquire this ability by shapeshift magic or maybe a summoning trick, and bestow it on another reptile. Familiars are nice. Then, if you didn't have the ability permanently already, have the reptile bestow it back (that's why you're a kobold). Then by using the other aspects of the ability, you can pump your ability scores into the stratosphere (without limit). After that I think there's some trickery you can use involving divinity mechanics...

What it represents most of all is the absurd assumption by writers that an infinitely broken power is perfectly fine if it isn't on a PC playable race.

[MaxKaladin]

They made a Su ability that allows you to perform a number of outrageous changes on any 'scalykind' creature with duration instant, including granting it abilities (that you have, I think). You acquire this ability by shapeshift magic or maybe a summoning trick, and bestow it on another reptile. Familiars are nice. Then, if you didn't have the ability permanently already, have the reptile bestow it back (that's why you're a kobold). Then by using the other aspects of the ability, you can pump your ability scores into the stratosphere (without limit). After that I think there's some trickery you can use involving divinity mechanics...

I see. Sigh.

What it represents most of all is the absurd assumption by writers that an infinitely broken power is perfectly fine if it isn't on a PC playable race.

I thought one of the points of 3.x was that there were no more "non-PC playable" races (or pretty much anything else) anymore and that you could be a half-troll, half-drow, half-dragon vampiric werebear if you wanted to. If it didn't start that way, it certainly seems that way now if the various threads I read on D&D boards are any indication.

[Gnomick]

To me, Pun-Pun is proof that the most important rule in D&D is the social contract between the players (including the DM). You can let somebody play almost anything so long as you trust that player to not make the game un-fun for the other players.

[Emperor Tippy]

To me Pun-Pun is a godsend. Whenever someone claims 3.5 is balanced you just link to that thread. If they still want to argue that 3.5 is balanced after reading that then you are free to whack that person on the head with the DMG.

[KoDT69]

Ooooh, I knew that feat Improved Critical - DMG wasn't a waste!

[Bears With Lasers]

Pun-pun, to me, represents everything I dislike most about D&D: over-"optimization", cheesing for cheesing's sake, and an utter disregard for anything remotely relating to character concept and roleplaying. Pun-pun is like the divine avatar of "video-game mentality," wherein coming up with the most twinked-out, abusive set of stats permissible under the RAW is a laudable goal. Even though I realize that the guy who first came up with Pun-pun never intended and never wanted the character to be played, I consider its existence a monument to everything I think is wrong with D&D, writ large. The micromanagement, the math, the systems-over-setting approach that seems so prevalent--over all this, Pun-pun is king.

...you realize, of course, that Pun-Pun isn't there for playing? Pun-Pun isn't meant to be played; he's just a demonstration of the things you can do with the rules (and how broken Manipulate Form is).

[NullAshton]

To me Pun-Pun is a godsend. Whenever someone claims 3.5 is balanced you just link to that thread. If they still want to argue that 3.5 is balanced after reading that then you are free to whack that person on the head with the DMG.

With that logic, you can prove that every system, every game in existance is broken.

[Tormsskull]

...you realize, of course, that Pun-Pun isn't there for playing?

Even though I realize that the guy who first came up with Pun-pun never intended and never wanted the character to be played

I'm going to guess that yes, she does realize that.