Tolkien-esque magic levels?

[GoblinGilmartin]

Traditional D&D has always been very high magic. People can throw fireballs several times per day, toss out a few magic missiles, a charm person, and still have time before breakfast. I love D&D wizards, but I feel we're kind of spoiled sometimes in that regard.

In LOTR, magic, while very prevalent and effective, isn't very potent. Galdalf barely does anything truly resembling outright spellcasting, his area of expertise is mostly interacting with various preexisting magics. magically locked doors, getting messages to the eagles, countering Saruman's powers in a one-on-one fight. Galadriel, one of the most powerful magic users, her abilities are mainly used for scrying, communicating telepathically, reading minds, and most of her power comes from the ring of water. Basically, not what I would consider 20th level Magic users. Although I suppose you could go with "They're under an oath or some kind of general lack of aggression that keeps the power levels down". Saruman causes an avalanche once. That was pretty cool.

In Middle Earth, you've got dudes who can turn into bears relatively at will, animals that seem...smarter, and better able to communicate, if not magical. The trees freaking talk to each other, as well as move when no one is looking...

Magic is "weaker" than in D&D, and yet much more ingrained in the fabric of the world, without being taken advantage of. How would one translate this into an RPG experience? I'd love to play a game at a power level close to this.

[BootStrapTommy]

I tend to play low magic campaigns. Though largely along the "spellcasters are overpowered" justification, rather than an actual modification on how magic works.

Personally I'd like to play that kind of game too. It would definitely lean more towards martial characters than mages, as mages would be notably handicapped by the subtly of the magic.

[Comet]

D&D is very much a genre of its own, where pragmatic strikeforces venture out to either collect riches or fight monsters in a world where magic is an omnipresent and well researched tool.

I'd imagine the One Ring Roleplaying Game is probably pretty Tolkien-esque. I haven't played it, though.

Other games are different in their own way. HeroQuest and Runequest, for example, have a standard world where everyone knows magic but that magic isn't very powerful until you devote your life to a temple. A farmer might know how to whistle a tune that makes his plow slightly keener while an Orlanthi stormlord might know how to fly with the wind, rend hills in half and enthrall an entire town with a single sentence.

[GoblinGilmartin]

found this on TVTropes.

Somewhat explained in the book and in the Silmarillion. The last time the Valar (gods) fought directly against a powerful evil, Middle-Earth was literally broken and much of the land was drowned beneath the sea. As a Maia (minor god), Gandalf vowed to not use his magical powers to directly interfere in Middle-Earth, letting the inhabitants of Middle-Earth decide their own fate. If you watch carefully, the only times Gandalf uses his powers are to fight another Maia or some force that has magic of its own (Saruman, Balrog, Nazgul), or to do some menial task that doesn't really affect anybody else (light source, fire). Gandalf is meant to be The Obi-Wan, not a Story-Breaker Power.

and I found this somewhere else. slightly out of context

Likewise, Saruman is able to use his closeness to nature to affect the weather, but as he forgets his bond with nature, nature actually turns on him. Treebeard is that much more incensed by Saruman’s destruction because he is a wizard and should know better how to treat the nature around him.

Radagast is the most perfect of Istari in regard to demonstrating closeness to and power in channeling nature for his benefit (though he is less perfect in demonstrating leadership over mankind and academic types of wisdom—leading to his failure).

Could a better way to define something like this be to measure it in how close a wizard is to a particular aspect of nature? Although that would end up resembling D&D cleric magic quite a bit...but the Maiar are technically angels....hmmm...

Although...Another way to see LOTR "Wizards" is that they really aren't meant to be big displays of power. They're meant to be guides of the people, Wise Ones.

[chainer1216]

There ARE lord of the rings PnP RPGs, I'm currently playing a dwarven craft master/wizard in one.

And with that experience I can tell you at yes, generally the magic is less reality breaking, its not without its flash or potency. My relatively low "level" character can throw lightning bolts around like nothing or easily destroy a castle wall.

Also: it should be noted that gandalf wasn't allowed to directly interfere with events, rather he had to guide people and give them hope. That's how all the colored wizards are supposed to work.

[Satinavian]

The "wizards" are not traditional wizards and more like halfgods. But Tolkiens lore has a lot of other magic users. Ok, most of them are elves or dwarves, but there are still some humans.

Magic is art and lore that is in principle accessable by normal people. And it is not consideered anything special, not in principle different to any other kind of mastery in arts or lore. The magical property is only inferred by modern readers who know better, what naturally should be possible and what should be impossible and thus has to be unnatural.

[GoblinGilmartin]

There ARE lord of the rings PnP RPGs, I'm currently playing a dwarven craft master/wizard in one.

And with that experience I can tell you at yes, generally the magic is less reality breaking, its not without its flash or potency. My relatively low "level" character can throw lightning bolts around like nothing or easily destroy a castle wall.

Also: it should be noted that gandalf wasn't allowed to directly interfere with events, rather he had to guide people and give them hope. That's how all the colored wizards are supposed to work.

you mean like the one that classifies Gandalf as a Bard?

Spoiler: No, seriously. From the LOTR Adventure game...

Show

[chainer1216]

We use a system called LotR CODA I guess, its 2d6 system. Its based more on the movies but our groups resident LotR lore nerd loves the system.

[Anonymouswizard]

you mean like the one that classifies Gandalf as a Bard?

Spoiler: No, seriously. From the LOTR Adventure game...

Show

Drop the music and the D&D bard class isn't that bad a fit for Gandalf (decent if not brilliant combat abilities, knowledge of a lot of topics, lots of social skills, and a little bit of magic), even though 'solar with most of it's strength removed is a far better fit.

[Xerlith]

Drop the music and the D&D bard class isn't that bad a fit for Gandalf (decent if not brilliant combat abilities, knowledge of a lot of topics, lots of social skills, and a little bit of magic), even though 'solar with most of it's strength removed is a far better fit.

I actually find it easiest to display ALL of Gandalf's abilities as a Bard. High Charisma? Check. Inspiring courage in hearts of men? Check. Broad, but approximate knowledge? Check. Minor healing? Check.

I'd peg him as a Divine Bard with Perform (Oratory) and Healing Hymn ACF. He's basically a 10-12ish level Bard (yes, that high).

[Anonymouswizard]

I actually find it easiest to display ALL of Gandalf's abilities as a Bard. High Charisma? Check. Inspiring courage in hearts of men? Check. Broad, but approximate knowledge? Check. Minor healing? Check.

I'd peg him as a Divine Bard with Perform (Oratory) and Healing Hymn ACF. He's basically a 10-12ish level Bard (yes, that high).

I meant lore wise, game wise I'd stat him as:

Aasimar divine bard 10
STR 12, DEX 13, CON 10, INT 14, WIS 18, CHA 16

Because he really doesn't need anything else. Aasimar makes him an outsider, bard gives him all his skills, and his fire powers come from a custom ring he bought with his WBL. His level might be a bit high, I personally prefer to peg him as about level 8, but that assumes Aragorn is Ranger 1/Paladin 3 (Legolas is Archer Ranger 4, Gimli is fighter 4, Boromir is Fighter 4 who dumped Wisdom, Frodo is rogue 1, Merry is rogue 1, Pippin is rogue 1, and Sam is fighter 1. All have levelled up at least once by Among Hen is finished, and Sam levels up again after he manages to defeat Shelob by pure luck, possibly multiclassing to paladin), which let's him accomplish his deeds while still wanting to run from hordes.

[aspekt]

Magic is art and lore that is in principle accessable by normal people.

This.

Especially if you read his published letters and the edited collection put together by Christopher Tolkien. You very quickly realize that Tolkien is not using magic in the same sense that the majority of fantasy literature does.

Magic is very much about art and the work of art. You never find, to my knowledge, any act of artistic creation in ME tied to spells or incantations to make it magical. Instead an item is an item of power because it is an act of high creation in imitation of the Creator Illuvatar.

The perversion of this kind of magic can be seen first in Morgoth's attempts to bind Ea, the created order, to his own will at the dawn of creation. It is also seen in particular in the tragedy of the Silmarils. Jewels of extraordinary beauty that their maker grew too covetous of and considered them to be his own. This craving to possess in turn always possesses one. And of course the most famous is the Rings of power and the One Ring.

This can be seen in reverse in the sundering of ME that was mentioned earlier by the OP. The Valar do not themselves sunder the world. It is as the fleets of Numenor in hubris set sail for the West and the home of the Valar that Manwe realizes these things are happening in part because of their failed attempts to govern and guide the races of Arda. Manwe then casts down his crown and beseeches Illuvatar the Creator to intervene. Illuvatar then strikes the fleet and the island of Numenor and forever separates the home of the Valar from Middle Earth.

It is the surrender of the Valar and Maia to the real source of ME and their refusal to claim creation as their own that allows for the intervention of Illuvatar.

As for ME games I have heard that MERP makes great use of the source material and that their maps are some of the best ones made.

However, because it is a game it's low magic approach still allows for supermatural healing regularly and the like.

You might seriously consider looking at the FUDGE ruleset. It is very meta in it's mechanics which means you have the creative freedom to make the game you want for whatever setting you want. In fact the only published setting for FUDGE I know of is a very low magic medieval one based on the Deryni novels by Katherine Kurtz.

[Spore]

I feel that D&D 3.5 in a low magic setting ranging in e6 levels comes pretty close in what you want.

[Kol Korran]

I too think that E6 is probably what you are looking for. But I'll add another suggestion. In PF, a new book called "Spheres of Power" was just recently published. I haven't read it, just reviews and excerpts, but from the look of it it focuses casters on narrower and more thematic casting, than the D&D casters do. This both lowers the power level, but also gives said caster a more defined themed focus.

I suggest that if you are using D&D, check out both E6 and Spheres of Power as inspirations to your build of your system.

Another possibility is to use FATE core. I magic can be expressed through stunts to a certain theme. You may want to look into the Toolkit to check some fantasy Extras, that may appeal to you. Shouldn't be difficult to create a low magic system with the FATE rules, if you're willing to work under the system's basic assumptions.

Good Luck!

[ReaderAt2046]

Traditional D&D has always been very high magic. People can throw fireballs several times per day, toss out a few magic missiles, a charm person, and still have time before breakfast. I love D&D wizards, but I feel we're kind of spoiled sometimes in that regard.

In LOTR, magic, while very prevalent and effective, isn't very potent. Galdalf barely does anything truly resembling outright spellcasting, his area of expertise is mostly interacting with various preexisting magics. magically locked doors, getting messages to the eagles, countering Saruman's powers in a one-on-one fight. Galadriel, one of the most powerful magic users, her abilities are mainly used for scrying, communicating telepathically, reading minds, and most of her power comes from the ring of water. Basically, not what I would consider 20th level Magic users. Although I suppose you could go with "They're under an oath or some kind of general lack of aggression that keeps the power levels down". Saruman causes an avalanche once. That was pretty cool.

In Middle Earth, you've got dudes who can turn into bears relatively at will, animals that seem...smarter, and better able to communicate, if not magical. The trees freaking talk to each other, as well as move when no one is looking...

Magic is "weaker" than in D&D, and yet much more ingrained in the fabric of the world, without being taken advantage of. How would one translate this into an RPG experience? I'd love to play a game at a power level close to this.

Problem is, Tolkien wrote what is known as "soft magic" (basically, the properties and limits of magic are never made clear), which is great for a story but really bad for an RPG. Basically the only way to reproduce this feel in an RPG is to have magic be a background thing only. There are wizards in the world that do things with magic, but the PCs can never be wizards.

[endur]

As others in this thread have stated, keeping the character levels low and restricting the classes is probably the best way to do this. i.e. e6 or maybe have the only pure casters be bards or have there be role-playing consequences to usage of flashy magic.

[Maglubiyet]

The Game of Thrones/Song of Ice and Fire world also has a lot of magic, but mostly it's not accessible to the "players". They've got zombies, skeletons, dragons, golems, vampires (maybe), shapeshifters, skinchangers, etc.

[BootStrapTommy]

This.

Especially if you read his published letters and the edited collection put together by Christopher Tolkien. You very quickly realize that Tolkien is not using magic in the same sense that the majority of fantasy literature does.

Magic is very much about art and the work of art. You never find, to my knowledge, any act of artistic creation in ME tied to spells or incantations to make it magical. Instead an item is an item of power because it is an act of high creation in imitation of the Creator Illuvatar.

The perversion of this kind of magic can be seen first in Morgoth's attempts to bind Ea, the created order, to his own will at the dawn of creation. It is also seen in particular in the tragedy of the Silmarils. Jewels of extraordinary beauty that their maker grew too covetous of and considered them to be his own. This craving to possess in turn always possesses one. And of course the most famous is the Rings of power and the One Ring.

"Evil cannot create, only corrupt" Gandalf says things like this often.

This view on magic likely has its origins in Tolkien's Catholicism. To skirt the idea of magic as wholly evil, he's create a dichotomy. One where good magic is an act of divine creation, then another evil magic is the corruption of existing things. This based on the Catholic metaphysical concept of evil as a privation, rather than a thing in itself.

Remember, there are only five known Wizards in all of Middle Earth. And they are more akin to celestials than simple spell casters.

So given that magic is creative the homebrew for a Tolkienesque would limit spellcasters to Bards and Artificiers, and maybe pact magic Warlocks for the shady side. And it would be heavily based on magical loot.

[veti]

I think it's a humungous mistake to try to model Middle-earth using D&D rules. It's just not a good fit. Almost any other system of handling magic, including Call of Cthulhu, would work better.

If you try, it leads you into such silliness as the once-popular theory that everyone in the Fellowship is a maximum of about 5th level.

But there are a lot of other game systems out there. To those already mentioned, I'd like to add Fantasy Hero, a system where you can design magic to be as powerful or low-key as you like. (As an example, I once played in a game where every PC was allowed one magical power, which they picked during character generation - mine was Speak With Horses. Otherwise a completely mundane character.)

[Flickerdart]

The "minor magic" feel is easy in 3.5 - remove all casting, and make a bunch of low-power Incantations. Spellcasters automatically gain knowledge of these as they level (and might be able to learn the ritual for a particular door just by examining it), while non-casters can learn some of the rituals the old-fashioned way if they have the class skills necessary to cast them.

Yes, this is going to be a lot of work for the DM, but it was always going to be - there's no way to have a character whose main use is to interact with the world's lore without having ludicrous tomes worth of it.

[Beta Centauri]

The magic in Lord of the Rings is not balanced with the mundanity. If magic is in play, you'd better me magical too, or luck out by fitting into a prophecy or hitting some weakness. If you're magic, you can take on a balrog or shapeshift and hold your own against an army.

The only way I see to balance that and make it playable is to restrict it heavily. Gandalf held back his most serious magic until he was desperate. In The Lord of the Rings, this was apparently because he would have wound up signalling Sauron. In The Hobbit, it seemed to be because he didn't really mean to get involved, and he used just enough magic to keep the group (and himself) alive.

Tom Bombadil kept to himself, as did Beorn, Galadriel and the Ents. Magic tended not to walk abroad, or was very secret when it did. I don't see how you'd make a compelling player character like that. Some people might enjoy that, but others might wonder why they can't use their powers, and dislike or distrust any in-game reasons imposed on them.

NPCs, though, are cooperative. If they leave the group, or stay behind, it's somewhat understandable, especially since most people don't want an NPC overshadowing them anyway.

So, if you're playing D&D, just have everyone use relatively low-level martial characters, and pit them against natural creatures, and non-spellcasters. Fights with magical foes should not be direct conflicts, but puzzles solved by applying a key to a lock, and getting lucky. You can't fight the ringwraiths, but fire and some elvish words can ward them off... for now.

[Premier]

OP: You might want to take a look at Balrogs & Bagginses, which is a "Tolkien tweak" for OD&D. Most of the stuff is about character creation, but it might give you some ideas.

[Knaight]

Magic is "weaker" than in D&D, and yet much more ingrained in the fabric of the world, without being taken advantage of. How would one translate this into an RPG experience? I'd love to play a game at a power level close to this.

There are a lot of ways to do it. The big thing is that magic is usually in one of two places in LoTR. Either it comes from people practicing an art (usually a craft) extremely well, or it is just there in the world. There are vastly more magical items than magic users, magic places are downright commonplace, and the magic involved is often subtle but can be quite powerful.

So, pick a system which does this. You want fairly little overt magic that people can directly employ, more magical equipment, and more magical places. You likely want to center some of the magical places around the beings that live there, with the clear implication being that they've warped the place simply by their presence. If you just want an RPG in that veneer, there are tons of options. If you want something specifically Tolkenien, I recommend Burning Wheel.

[aspekt]

As an aside has anyone played/read both The One Ring and the LotR CODA games?

I'm curious as to how they play out and differences/similarities.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

The One Ring was a great read, I wish I had a group to play it with. But Burning Wheel is most definitely a game I recommend for Tolkienesque play--it is saturated Tolkien through and through, with other influences like Earthsea. The way that the game does Elven and Dwarven magic is just spot-on: subtle but potent, and very magical-feeling.

Gandalf would be a human with Faith magic, most likely.

[Urpriest]

The One Ring was a great read, I wish I had a group to play it with. But Burning Wheel is most definitely a game I recommend for Tolkienesque play--it is saturated Tolkien through and through, with other influences like Earthsea. The way that the game does Elven and Dwarven magic is just spot-on: subtle but potent, and very magical-feeling.

Gandalf would be a human with Faith magic, most likely.

Was coming to this thread just to say this.

[Amaril]

Having looked into The One Ring RPG, it looks to me to do a really good job of recreating Tolkien's atmosphere, and just to be a great game in general. Unfortunately, I don't have anyone to actually play it with either.

Maybe we should get a group together on here, now I think about it...

[Raimun]

Tolkien-esque? You mean Jackson-esque? (Not that there's anything wrong with that)

Have you read the books? Gandalf used spells of fire (and lightning) many times in both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. They were pretty flashy. And blasty.

Of course, he did all that other stuff too that the OP mentioned and it was those things that ultimately saved the day. However, the notion that LotR-magic is only "subtle" is the invention of Peter Jackson and co. They removed blasty fire spells that Gandalf was known for.

It's just that magic is not well defined in the books. Gandalf is pretty much never the view point character and he never really tells even some hard and fast rules of how or why his magic works or what limits there are. The other characters don't understand any of this either... or if they do, (like Galadriel or Saruman) they are not telling either.

The magic in Arda can get pretty insane but it's not like even the mightiest hobbits (Frodo and co.) were able to see most of it, let alone understand it. The mightiest feats happened off-page and were only alluded in flash backs (like Gandalf vs. the Ringwraiths at Weathertop. Yes. The other fight at Weathertop. Look it up.) or happened in Silmarillion.

Still, there certainly were blasting spells that were fired.

[GoblinGilmartin]

Tolkien-esque? You mean Jackson-esque? (Not that there's anything wrong with that)

Have you read the books? Gandalf used spells of fire (and lightning) many times in both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. They were pretty flashy. And blasty.

Of course, he did all that other stuff too that the OP mentioned and it was those things that ultimately saved the day. However, the notion that LotR-magic is only "subtle" is the invention of Peter Jackson and co. They removed blasty fire spells that Gandalf was known for.

It's just that magic is not well defined in the books. Gandalf is pretty much never the view point character and he never really tells even some hard and fast rules of how or why his magic works or what limits there are. The other characters don't understand any of this either... or if they do, (like Galadriel or Saruman) they are not telling either.

The magic in Arda can get pretty insane but it's not like even the mightiest hobbits (Frodo and co.) were able to see most of it, let alone understand it. The mightiest feats happened off-page and were only alluded in flash backs (like Gandalf vs. the Ringwraiths at Weathertop. Yes. The other fight at Weathertop. Look it up.) or happened in Silmarillion.

Still, there certainly were blasting spells that were fired.

You got me. My main exposure is through the LOTR movies and the Hobbit novel. I know Gandalf CAN do that stuff, but he usually only uses it against someone else on an equal play level...

[ReaderAt2046]

"Evil cannot create, only corrupt" Gandalf says things like this often.

This view on magic likely has its origins in Tolkien's Catholicism. To skirt the idea of magic as wholly evil, he's create a dichotomy. One where good magic is an act of divine creation, then another evil magic is the corruption of existing things. This based on the Catholic metaphysical concept of evil as a privation, rather than a thing in itself.

Remember, there are only five known Wizards in all of Middle Earth. And they are more akin to celestials than simple spell casters.

So given that magic is creative the homebrew for a Tolkienesque would limit spellcasters to Bards and Artificiers, and maybe pact magic Warlocks for the shady side. And it would be heavily based on magical loot.

In fact, they literally are Celestials. The Wizards were Maiar (minor angels, essentially) who were given physical form to guide the mortals and to help protect against the most overpowered supernatural evils (Balrogs and the like).