Why are warlocks ruining our group?

[RobbieOC]

I like the warlock class alright, I guess. But it causes a lot of unnecessary problems in my game group. I've heard a lot of people say the warlock is underpowered compared to a lot of classes, but I'm not seeing that in my group. The ranged touch attack of the eldritch blast, coupled with fly and eldritch spear (and then adding on maximize and mortal bane from BoVD makes the warlocks in our group highly effective. Why is it so different for us than it is for everyone else?

[Kultrum]

It really does depend on who is playing the char, who the DM is, how the DM lies to play, and the level of houseruleing whether or not a char is effective

[Innis Cabal]

how are you adding the maximize to it unless your adding maximize spell like ability, which he can only use three times per day if i remember correctly, dont see that as breaking. And i havent read BoVD recently, do you mean the mortal bane class? or is that an ability that he is some how adding to his eldritch blast. I don't think a warlock is underpowered just very limited in what it can do, but i love the warlock so im biased a bit. Don't know why its so different, and how is he accessing the fly spell? Is someone casting it on him? I don't remember that as an invocation becuase i know i would have taken it if it was

And stop following me Kultrum

[UglyPanda]

BoVD is 3.0, that takes care of problem one. Problem two is that you don't have nearly enough enemies that let themselves get nailed from 300 ft. away. So your DM doesn't make enough flying enemies and/or makes too many enemies that just pop onto the battlefield and yell out "Look, I'm a target!". Also, it might just be that you guys are playing blaster mages with 20 encounters a day. If that's the case, then of course Warlocks are going to rule.

[Arbitrarity]

Maximize and mortal bane might be it, though really, not much lifts the warlocks out of the dirt that their class is. Dunno what those do though.

I mean, as it is, you have flying guys who shoot 6d6 at people. Maximize... maximizes? So 36. And mortal bane :/ Dunno.

However, maybe other people in your party can't min-max properly. A good fighter, assuming quite a few splatbooks, at a guess level 12 or so, can deal insane damage at this point with a 4 level dip in psywar.

Can you give an example of what happens in a given turn?

Ah, maximize is 3/day, it's just maximize spell-like ability. Mortal-bane is 5/day, +2d6. So you have guys who do 48 damage 3/day. Why is this uber effective again?

Now vitrolic blast, is a nice invocation.

[Kultrum]

And stop following me Kultrum

I was here first

[RobbieOC]

Maximize and mortal bane might be it, though really, not much lifts the warlocks out of the dirt that their class is. Dunno what those do though.

I mean, as it is, you have flying guys who shoot 6d6 at people. Maximize... maximizes? So 36. And mortal bane :/ Dunno.

However, maybe other people in your party can't min-max properly. A good fighter, assuming quite a few splatbooks, at a guess level 12 or so, can deal insane damage at this point with a 4 level dip in psywar.

Can you give an example of what happens in a given turn?

Ah, maximize is 3/day, it's just maximize spell-like ability. Mortal-bane is 5/day, +2d6. So you have guys who do 48 damage 3/day. Why is this uber effective again?

Now vitrolic blast, is a nice invocation.

Well, I have no problem with it really, it's the whole touch attack thing that really bothers a few people in our group. And the DR, too. Plus, we always play in real high magic settings where nearly anything is available if you have the money, so if you add in chausibles of power and all that it doens't help any.

I guess what I wanted were reasons the warlock isn't as overpowered as they seem to think it is. I should have just asked outright... sorry for being misleading.

Thanks.

[Innis Cabal]

they really arnt over powered, with hardly any items, save a few in the books they are presented in and the new stuff in Magic item compendium, they are hardly supported at all. They have very weak "spells" that are only good at certain things, most of them evil or non-good, and they have a very strict alignment code. Sure you can play CG but when the CG 12 year old human girl with pig tails bursts into a could of bats even the most rightous paladin is going to go "HUH? Did she just turn bats?" thats an alignment restriction. Plus their eldritch blast isnt graet, as they said 6d6 points of damage isnt great, better then a normal weapon but you can only do it once a turn, though i have seen some great PrC's that fix that, so even the fighter is going to do more damage with his full attacks.

Good reasons why they arnt over powered?

[Bears With Lasers]

What are the rest of the people in your party doing?

Maximize SLA, as people have mentioned, is 3 blasts per day. It's not really even worth taking, Quicken SLA is better.

The Warlock makes touch attacks, but he makes one a round... and he has a lower attack bonus than the fighter. Frankly, a fighter and a Warlock will be hitting about the same percentage of the time, except against enemies with a particularily low touch AC.

Yes, Warlocks can fly and attack from a distance. Warlocks are good at Not Dying. Generally, their problem is that they can't contribute much offensively. A few d6es once a round is pretty bad.

So, basically, the question is--what the heck is the rest of your party doing?

[Epiphanis]

I think Warlock is actually fairly well balanced. It is, however, built more along the lines of a martial type than a caster type, and people used to the variety of caster spell lists are turned off by a caster with what amounts to bonus feats instead of spells per day.

Also, the really twinky tricks available to endgame caster levels aren't there for the warlock. Some just think "why not play a CoDzilla or Wizard instead"? But a lot of the people who think that think the same thing about rogues and fighters, too

[Arbitrarity]

K, there we go.

Warlocks are UP for a variety of reasons. 1'st, being that they only have a couple of "spell" selections, much worse than a sorc. Those "spells" for the most part, though at will, also take up the valuable combat round. Fog cloud, darkness, invisibility, and so forth take one of their 5 or 6 selected abilities. Anyway.

Secondly, they only get one blast per round (except eldritch glaive, but it's 10 ft). Or quicken spell-like ability, but it's 3/day. The blast is the same as the rogue's sneak attack, but it's only one, and rogues have better skill/class abilities. Even with a greater chausible of eldritch power, it doesn't keep up with the rogue getting flaming and shock, say.

That blast, though a touch attack, is one touch attack, no real magical enhancement. Most of the warlock abilities don't go well with current magic items. So... 8d6, 1/round, 10d6 5/day, maximise 3/day.

Their DR is nearly worthless. DR 2/cold iron does nothing, relatively, at that point, unless you're getting owned by cats.

The only thing that could potentially make or break the warlock is their invocation selection. Hideous blow, for instance, removes the touch aspect, opening up greater suckage. Say, noxious blast is nice, but it only lasts one round.

Bleah. Main thing is, warlocks can do damage, but almost nothing else, other than being a face. Only other thing they can do is save themselves. And the damage, after a while, just isn't good enough.

Ask one of the experts, they can probably explain better than I can.

[JoeFredBob]

Bears, did you mean the fighter and warlock will be hitting the same percent of the time or the same number of times per round? Because, really, many many enemies have more than (party level / 2) + (1 to 3) AC which is doesn't count towards touch attacks, and that's roughly the difference between the warlock's to-hit and the fighter's to-hit (1/4 levels for BAB, 1/4 levels for a magic weapon, 1 to 3 for difference in attack stat, weapon spec, etc.)

edit:

Bleah. Main thing is, warlocks can do damage, but almost nothing else,

Or, you know, cause 3-5 creatures per round to make a fort save or be nauseated for a minute, as well as taking nd6 (for the first one) or nd6/2 damage. But that's not nearly as broken as celerity + time stop, so it's unplayable.

[Innis Cabal]

i think you got it on the nose, but i think warlock is one of the most fun class;s to play. There is an item i made floating around on the board here that makes the damage go from d6 to d8, if your willing to look for it

[Arbitrarity]

The fighter specializes only in strength to hit, the warlock can only specialize in cha, with dex secondary, so has worse to hit from stats.

[martyboy74]

Bears, did you mean the fighter and warlock will be hitting the same percent of the time or the same number of times per round? Because, really, many many enemies have more than (party level / 2) + (1 to 3) AC which is doesn't count towards touch attacks, and that's roughly the difference between the warlock's to-hit and the fighter's to-hit (1/4 levels for BAB, 1/4 levels for a magic weapon, 1 to 3 for difference in attack stat, weapon spec, etc.)

You can only use one SLA per round. That's one attack per round for the warlock, unless he's using Quicken SLA, or Eldritch Glaive. Depending on level, the fighter probably gets more attacks per round, and usually at more damage.

[JoeFredBob]

You can only use one SLA per round. That's one attack per round for the warlock, unless he's using Quicken SLA, or Eldritch Glaive. Depending on level, the fighter probably gets more attacks per round, and usually at more damage.

I know, that's why I asked if he meant number of hits / round instead of percent of the time. Fighters will probably hit more times per round, but warlocks will probably hit witha larger percent of their attacks.

[Bears With Lasers]

Bears, did you mean the fighter and warlock will be hitting the same percent of the time or the same number of times per round? Because, really, many many enemies have more than (party level / 2) + (1 to 3) AC which is doesn't count towards touch attacks, and that's roughly the difference between the warlock's to-hit and the fighter's to-hit (1/4 levels for BAB, 1/4 levels for a magic weapon, 1 to 3 for difference in attack stat, weapon spec, etc.)

The Fighter will have a bigger STR than the Warlock has DEX, and a lot more attack boosters, from feats to items to buffs. He'll also be able to get flanking, trip his enemies, etc. There's a wide range of ACs and touch ACs out there, but I think it's safe to say that against a significant number of them, the Fighter's about as likely to hit as the Warlock.

edit:

Or, you know, cause 3-5 creatures per round to make a fort save or be nauseated for a minute, as well as taking nd6 (for the first one) or nd6/2 damage. But that's not nearly as broken as celerity + time stop, so it's unplayable.

No, it's compared to killing one of'em outright, or making them all Confused or Feared and therefore useless.

[Dragonmuncher]

So, for whatever reason, you say the Warlock is out performing all the other PCs? Dealing at least as much damage as the fighter, while staying out of reach?

Hmm... you could send a horde of lower CR creatures. fighter gets full attack, meaning he can kill more than one a turn, wizard can fireball, etc. Warlock still only has one blast.

Use monsters that have a higher touch AC, or maybe some spell resistance.

Do some indoor battles, so flying isn't quite as big a deal. Or have the enemies use archers or magic to damage the warlock.

Flying creatures.

That's all I can think of, for now.

[Ramza00]

mortal bane allows you to add +2d6 damage to your eldritch blast 5 times a day. It is only +1d6 if the attack hits an outsider, construct, or undead.


I rather take quicken spell like ability for another attack per round 3 times a day.

[JoeFredBob]

No, it's compared to killing one of'em outright, or making them all Confused or Feared and therefore useless.

Have you looked at what nauseated means? From the SRD:

Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn.

That's just about the definition of useless as far as I can tell. They can't even run away from you as fast as they could if they were Feared.

[Lemur]

mortal bane allows you to add +2d6 damage to your eldritch blast 5 times a day. It is only +1d6 if the attack hits an outsider, construct, or undead.


I rather take quicken spell like ability for another attack per round 3 times a day.

I was under the impression that if mortalbane is used against outsiders, constructs, or undead, not only would the bonus damage dice not be added, but the damage dealt would be halved.

[Zincorium]

Have you looked at what nauseated means? From the SRD:

That's just about the definition of useless as far as I can tell. They can't even run away from you as fast as they could if they were Feared.

It's a fortitude save, which means for most bruisers it's the best save they have, and for a large number of common enemies (undead, constructs) it won't even happen at all. It also requires that touch attack in addition to the fortitude save.

It's also a greater invocation, meaning it's not available at all until 11th level, at which point the wizard is getting things like Eyebite, disintegration, antimagic field, and so on. You also get five greater invocations, ever, unless you burn feats or use up a Dark invocation slot. That means that you have given up some pretty significant effects to use it.

It's pretty good. In no way does it make a warlock overpowered compared to casters. It puts it only a decent way ahead of fighters and the like, and it's already past the point where those classes lose out compared to most others.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Again, I have to reiterate this - what on Earth is the rest of the party doing?

[Indon]

My guess is, the Warlock is optimizing his character better than the other party members. Regardless of class, this can happen in such a scenario.

My recommendation is to talk it out with the player of the Warlock about relative character effectiveness.

And if they disagree, start throwing things with SR into the equasion.

[Starbuck_II]

My guess is, the Warlock is optimizing his character better than the other party members. Regardless of class, this can happen in such a scenario.

My recommendation is to talk it out with the player of the Warlock about relative character effectiveness.

And if they disagree, start throwing things with SR into the equasion.

Or tell the others to optimize better. THe PHB 2 added in retraining because of these problems (player not playing characters well).

[Indon]

Or tell the others to optimize better. THe PHB 2 added in retraining because of these problems (player not playing characters well).

True, really either solution works if it brings all the players in-line. I just consider bringing one in line with the rest to be easier.

[Fhaolan]

how the DM lies to play

I know this is a mistype, but it's still funny, and is quoted for truth.

[its_all_ogre]

even if a fighter is doing only one attack a round he should still do more than 36 hps damage unless he is a really poor fighter or you do not have the splat books. i mean assuming you are level 12 thats weapon focus and Greater same for spec, add in mastery, power attack(2 handed sword?) leap attack and shocktrooper and you practically cannot fail to do more than 36 damage!
and you have endless swings in the same way as a warlock has endless blasts, ie until your hps run out.

[the_tick_rules]

it all depends on the circumstances. My DM prides himself on taking classes, characters, feats, weapons etc. that many consider useless and use them against us to great effect. He's very good at his job.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Okay. Your 12th-level Warlock does a maximum of about 50 damage per turn (without closing to melee range with Eldritch Glaive), with Maximize SLA (3 times per day), Mortal Bane (5 times per day), Chasubles, etc.

A well-played 12th level fighter should be able to break 100 damage on a full attack (or charge if he's built for it), and keep up that kind of damage all day.

Now, neither of them can do anything else...the warlock can manage some battlefield control or utility if needed and the fighter can do some tricks if he feels like it, but they're both mainly damage classes. And as for defense, the warlock's harder to reach (pro tip for DM's: flying enemies counter flying players), but he's significantly more fragile than the fighter in terms of both AC and HP. Not to mention Fort saves.

Bear in mind, this is me comparing the warlock to one of the less useful classes in the game. Full casters make even the best-built warlocks cry, unless it's a 20-encounter endurance match.