Small Barbarian/Sorcerer builds

[Rowanomicon]

OK, I want to play a Small sized Barbarian/Sorcerer. I want him to focus more on the melee and fighting aspect.

Here are the set in stone restrictions:
Size: small
Classes: Barbarian & Srocerer (others can be used but those must be included)
GP: 80,000
34 Point Buy
Max HP at 1st, 3/4 after
SRD only, unless you provide a link or pdf for anything else
Must be Chaotic Evil (could be Neutral Evil if it must I guess)
ECL 10 (50,000XP total to allow for LA buyoff, item creation, etc.)

I've been considering the PrCs Dragon Disciple and Eldritch Knight.

Something interesting somone noted was that a permanent Reduce Person could be bought by a Medium character.

Any suggestions would be much apreciated. Also I have a time constraint so asap would be quite nice. I may be so lucky as to have until next Tuesday, but I doubt it.

EDIT: I should also say he will be working in cahoots and closely with a Large sized Orge Barbarian.

[storybookknight]

I think maybe you're looking at the Rage Mage prestige class?

I'm sure you realize this isn't optimized, but probably you don't care so much, so we'll just ignore that.

Will the Battle Sorcerer variant be allowed?

Might also take a look at Abjurant Champion.

[Rowanomicon]

Yes, I know this is far from optimized, but it is playable, and flavourful. I'm mostly in it for the flavour/character idea.

I am unfamiliar with Rage Mage and Abjurant Champion. Where might I find them, would it be possibly to get a link or pdf?

Also I would say yes to the Battle Sorcerer varient.

[cupkeyk]

shrinking down to as small as possible is a great option for melee types with SA and Giantslayer/underfoot combat/confound the bigfolks. Whispergnome Sorc1/Rogue3/Ftr2/BarbX. You need as little as 11 cha.

anju champ is in complete mage. rage mage is in complete arcane.

[Rowanomicon]

I don't own any of the Complete books, but thanks.

I suppose Tiny is a option for size aswell if it benefits the build, but I'd rather small.

Out of curiosity why would you choose to add the 3 levels or Rogue? Also would you tak the levels in that order: 1Src/3Rog/2Ftr/then the rest Barb?

Where is Whispergnome found? Races of Stone? Sorry, I don't have that either.

EDIT: Just so everyone knows. Much of the flavour of this character is that he will be a savage little bundle of fury to be unleashed on enemies, almost like some demonic wild animal. Also It would be interesting to make him work well with his larger partner.

[cupkeyk]

Well since you don't own any of the Races nor the Completes the build is pointless. Confound the Big Folks let you deal SA damage to creatures you are occupying the same space as. Giantslayer lets you ride the big guys using a climb skill. I think your idea was a little feral thing froth at the mouth as it claws at thair faces which is what that build is.

Yes whispergnome is from a RoS.

For optimal damage dealing with an animal companion go Ranger5/Halfling OutRiderX (complete warrior)... Expect to deal damage around the hundreds (around 300-400 to be exact) each round, by level 13 with power attack and Shock Trooper(also in CW)

[Rigeld2]

what part of "Yes, I know this is far from optimized, but it is playable, and flavourful. I'm mostly in it for the flavour/character idea." did you not get cupkeyk?

Hes fine doing what he wants solely in core.

[Person_Man]

If you want to do this purely using SRD and linkable material, there's really not that much anyone can do to help you.

But here's my best shot:

Here's a list of things that grant Rage like abilities.
Here's a list of classes available online.
Here's a list of ways to get natural attacks.

Here's the Whisper Gnome.

The Kobold variant is also good, especially if you focus on natural attacks. At early levels, it grants you tremendous advantage. And using the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, you can get +1 to your Sorcerer caster level (including spells) in exchange for 2 feats.

I would suggest using an over-powered template, such as Mineral Warrior, Mulhorandi Divine Minion, or Entomanothrope. Normally responsible DMs ban these, but a Barbarian/Sorcerer is weak, and without supplements they're totally nerfed. So maybe one of these would help a lot.


Can you use crystalkeep? If so, that opens up a lot of doors for you.

[Rowanomicon]

Yes, CrystalKeep is useable.

[cupkeyk]

Oh yeah, shock trooper, giantslayer, underfoot combat, confound the big folk is viewable in http://realmshelps.dandello.net/

and the halfling mounted charger is still awesome with core. only he'll be expecting around 90 damage instead of the hundreds.

[Person_Man]

A Barbarian/Chameleon would work fine and would give you spells without having to dip into Sorcerer, but they have to be a human or doppelganger. Maybe you can get your DM to houserule something.

Barbarian 1/Sorcerer 4/Halfling Whistler would only lost one level of spellcasting, and Halfling Whistlers have Cha based abilities, 6 Skill points per level, and 7/10 BAB (it was written for bards, but pretty much anyone can qualify).

Going the other direction, Barbarian 4/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple wouldn't be horrible, though using Hexblade is generally a much better idea for a Dragon Disciple.

[NullAshton]

I give you.... Dinky the Barbarian!

http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=12694

Whopping AC of 33, with extremely painful criticals, and of course power attack. I recommend using the raging whirlwind variant that's in the SRD variant section, on the upper right. That would increase the AC to 35 while raging, while giving him another attack for more criticalness, and of course more damage.

[Rigeld2]

Error!

Sorry, the requested character can not be shown. Either you don't have permission to edit it, the sheet isn't publicly viewable, or the character does not exist.

[NullAshton]

*grumbles about public viewing not being the default...*

It should be viewable now.

[Rowanomicon]

Cool.
I think using the Battle Sorcerer varient might be better for that build. Also I might change the spell selection some.
That build would have 3 0-level spells/day and 9 1-level spells/day (3/8 if Battle Sorc varient).
Shouldn't the damage be 1d8+8+1d6?
Also, I'm not too hot on the Dodge feat, it only grants against one attacker and that attacker must be declared before hand.
I like using the whirlwind varient, that's something I thought about too.
Can you switch editing details?
I might go with this build, but I'd like to see what others think/suggest.

[Ivius]

Have the big one take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Gnome). Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Rowanomicon]

Haha, that's whast I was thinking. He could throw me into battle, then charge.

[NullAshton]

Cool.
I think using the Battle Sorcerer varient might be better for that build. Also I might change the spell selection some.
That build would have 3 0-level spells/day and 9 1-level spells/day (3/8 if Battle Sorc varient).
Shouldn't the damage be 1d8+8+1d6?
Also, I'm not too hot on the Dodge feat, it only grants against one attacker and that attacker must be declared before hand.
I like using the whirlwind varient, that's something I thought about too.
Can you switch editing details?
I might go with this build, but I'd like to see what others think/suggest.

I could let you edit it, but I have no clue who to allow to edit.

Dodge feat was because I couldn't think of anything else, it can be replaced.

Uh... and at level 1 of sorcerer, you know 4 level 0 spells and 2 level 1 spells. Five levels of dragon disciple, for a total of 4 level 0 spells and 6 level 1 spells.

What's the difference between 1d8+1d6+8 and 1d6+1d8+8?

No battlesorcerer, because that would mean losing a few spells, and all I'd get in return was 4 hitpoints. Just one level of sorcerer after all.

[Rowanomicon]

My profile is Rowan.

Level one Sorc is 4 0-level know, and 2 1-level known. It is also 5 0-level/day and 3 1-level/day. It is the per day spells that get affected by the bonus spells so with +1 cha and 5 levels on DD it becomes 5 0-level/day and 8 1-level today.

Oh, sorry, I read the damage as 1d8+1+1d6+8 and I was confusted where the +1 came from, but i just read it wrong. My mistake.

With Battle Sorc you also get to ignore arcane spell failure chance with light armor, but I think you might be right about it not being worth it.

I have a somewhat noobish question. When you multiclass can you put ranks into a skill that is on the other class's (not the class you just leveled in) skill list normaly, or does it count as cross-class?
If it counts as cross-class then a Sorc1/Barb4 couldn't qualify for DD. It'd have to be Sorc2/Barb6 or Sroc3/Barb4

[Tor the Fallen]

If you want to do this purely using SRD and linkable material, there's really not that much anyone can do to help you.

But here's my best shot:

Here's a list of things that grant Rage like abilities.
Here's a list of classes available online.
Here's a list of ways to get natural attacks.

Here's the Whisper Gnome.

The Kobold variant is also good, especially if you focus on natural attacks. At early levels, it grants you tremendous advantage. And using the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, you can get +1 to your Sorcerer caster level (including spells) in exchange for 2 feats.

I would suggest using an over-powered template, such as Mineral Warrior, Mulhorandi Divine Minion, or Entomanothrope. Normally responsible DMs ban these, but a Barbarian/Sorcerer is weak, and without supplements they're totally nerfed. So maybe one of these would help a lot.


Can you use crystalkeep? If so, that opens up a lot of doors for you.

I really like that mineral warrior template. LA +1 for all that? Wow. Little rough on the -2 on all mental stats, but wow.

[Rowanomicon]

I think I'll use the Mineral Warrior, although I'll have to make sure his final Cha score is 12.

[Vik]

I have a somewhat noobish question. When you multiclass can you put ranks into a skill that is on the other class's (not the class you just leveled in) skill list normaly, or does it count as cross-class?
If it counts as cross-class then a Sorc1/Barb4 couldn't qualify for DD.

It is cross-class and you must pay 2pts per skill rank. However, the maximum rank you can have in the skill is 3+level as soon as it is a skill class of one of your classes.

[Person_Man]

I really like that mineral warrior template. LA +1 for all that? Wow. Little rough on the -2 on all mental stats, but wow.

Mineral Warrior is clearly broken. I only suggest it because a Barbarian/Sorcerer is such a nerfed build.

Also, why exactly do you want Sorcerer levels? Is there a particular spell effect you want access to?

[NullAshton]

Mineral Warrior is clearly broken. I only suggest it because a Barbarian/Sorcerer is such a nerfed build.

Also, why exactly do you want Sorcerer levels? Is there a particular spell effect you want access to?

Uh. My build is not nerfed. 35 AC at level 10 is pretty good. Then you got the ability to cast true strike on that, a bunch of utility spells for just about whenever... with money you earn later on, grab a rod of lesser quicken metamagic. Ooo, true strike as a swift action.

[Person_Man]

Uh. My build is not nerfed. 35 AC at level 10 is pretty good. Then you got the ability to cast true strike on that, a bunch of utility spells for just about whenever... with money you earn later on, grab a rod of lesser quicken metamagic. Ooo, true strike as a swift action.

I disagree. This is why I think a Sorcerer/Barbarian is nerfed:

1) Access to 1st level spells really aren't that useful once you get into mid levels. It's certainly not worth giving up BAB/hit points when you're a melee build. If you really want certain 1st level spells that badly, I suggest you be a Duskblade, Hexblade, or a full BAB prestige class that has its own list of spells.

2) True Strike is a standard action. Statistically, you usually usually deal more damage by making two normal attacks (especially if they're full attacks), rather then wasting one round casting True Strike and then spending another rolling to hit. Using a Rod of Quicken + True Strike is a nifty combo that you use three times per day. But consider that you need to hold the rod in order to use it, which is annoying if you need to spend a Move action to take it out, and you're trying to wield a two handed weapon, so you then have to drop it or spend another Move action to put it away. And consider how many attacks you make in a game day, and what percentage of them you're missing because your BAB is lower. Plus you could have spent that 35,000 on a +4 weapon, or in your case by improving your +1 Flaming Burst Greatpick to a +3 Flaming Burst Greatpick, a far better investment. So while nifty, the combo isn't very efficient.

3) Your high AC comes at a cost of 25% spell failure. How are you casting spells in melee?

4) Since you only have 7/10 BAB, you will always be at least 1 attack behind the numerous full BAB melee types enemies that you fight on the front line. You hit them once or twice, they hit you three or four times.

5) Your build lacks a high damage combo. You have Power Attack+Rage, and that's it. By ECL 10, there's really no reason a melee build shouldn't be dealing at least 50 damage on every hit. (Leap Attack+Shock Trooper, Improved Trip+Knock-down, Spirited Charge, Snap Kick, Headlong Rush, Pounce, various class abilities, etc)

Your build isn't bad. It's just not good. I do not argue with anyone who wants to play something for fluff reasons. But I think the evidence is clear that your build could be improved by dropping the Sorcerer and Dragon Disciple levels and going with some other full BAB PrC.

[Rowanomicon]

I think you're right. Perhaps a PrC that grants some special abilities would fill the same.
Basically I just wanted some interesting things to do in combat.
However low level damaging spells become basically useless when I could use a weapon and do 5 times the damage.
I think Blackguard might do what I'm looking for.
Besides I've never seen a Barbarian/Blackguard before.

[Person_Man]

I think you're right. Perhaps a PrC that grants some special abilities would fill the same.
Basically I just wanted some interesting things to do in combat.
However low level damaging spells become basically useless when I could use a weapon and do 5 times the damage.
I think Blackguard might do what I'm looking for.
Besides I've never seen a Barbarian/Blackguard before.

The Blackguard benefits from some excellent spells in some expansion books, making it a playable PrC. Hexblade 4/Fighter 2/Blackguard X is pretty common. There are also a variety of Fear builds that work well with that combo. Blackguard also makes a decent mounted combat build.

I wouldn't suggest Barbarian/Blackguard, since one of the main benefits of being a Blackguard is being able to cast spells, and you can't cast spells while in a Rage.

[Rowanomicon]

Where can I find the info for Hexblade? I don't have the book.

Now, I'm not sure what I want to go with...

[Rigeld2]

CWar. Not sure if its anywhere online.

[Rowanomicon]

I might go with a Fighter/Blackguard or a Barb/BG, but I still donno.
If I go with Fighter I'll take it to level 7. What feats and feat trees does anyone suggest for melee. I think I'll probably want to do a two-handed weapon, but I'm not sure.