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Thread: The Rogue Revitalized
- Join Date
- Apr 2005
The Rogue Revitalized
So this fix is a bit different for me. With most of my other class fixes, I look at what the class already has and augment/polish it. In this case, you will notice the Rogue looking very different from what you're used to. If anything it looks much closer to the Factotum, what with the Inspiration Points, than it does to the rogue.
My goal here was to merge the Factotum and the Rogue, removing the more magical abilities from the Factotum that tend to be its bread and butter for versatility/power. In exchange it gains a lot of rogue abilities, and some of the more standard nonmagical factotum abilities (specifically Sneak Attack via inspiration and Insightful Defense) are boosted to make them more generally useful. Combine that with some ability shuffling, a few tweaks to other existing abilities, and a couple entirely new abilities, and we have what I hope makes for a quintessential rogue. One who has a heavy focus on skills, and is very slippery and hard to kill. The Rogue Talents are a combination of PF rogue talents and 3.5 Special Abilities that give some room for customization within the class. More will likely get added there over time.
I am considering reworking the Monk and Bard in a similar manner to this (replacing Bard casting with Inspiration, and giving Monk Inspiration to work with some of its other abilities), expect to see those over the next couple of weeks.
Anyway, that's enough talky. Here's what you came for, I hope you like it.
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Inspiration Special 1 +0 +0 +2 +0 2 Sneak Attack, Insightful Defense, Trapfinding 2 +1 +0 +3 +0 3 Inspired Lore, Rogue Talent 3 +2 +1 +3 +1 3 Deadly Accuracy 4 +3 +1 +4 +1 4 Uncanny Dodge 5 +4 +1 +4 +1 4 Extra Skill Tricks, Rogue Talent 6 +4 +2 +5 +2 5 Uncanny Strike 7 +5 +2 +5 +2 5 Evasion 8 +6 +2 +6 +2 6 Skill Specialization, Rogue Talent 9 +6 +3 +6 +3 6 Versatile Strikes 10 +7 +3 +7 +3 6 Improved Uncanny Dodge 11 +8 +3 +7 +3 7 Lucky Recovery, Rogue Talent 12 +9 +4 +8 +4 7 Inspired Trickster 13 +9 +4 +8 +4 7 Advantageous Avoidance 14 +10 +4 +9 +4 8 Cunning Surge, Rogue Talent 15 +11 +5 +9 +5 8 Survivor's Luck 16 +12 +5 +10 +5 8 Improved Evasion 17 +12 +5 +10 +5 9 Fortuitous Strike, Rogue Talent 18 +13 +6 +11 +6 9 Brilliant Improviser 19 +14 +6 +11 +6 9 Better Lucky than Good 20 +15 +6 +12 +6 10 Inspired Celerity, Rogue Talent
Hit Die: d6
Class Skills: The Rogue treats all skills as class skills. Yes, including those ones.
Skill Points per level: 8+Int Modifier
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, short sword, and whip. Rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Inspiration: The rogue dabbles in a vast array of different skills and techniques. While he is not the master of all, this broad study lends itself to a varied and unpredictable set of capabilities that the rogue can call upon from time to time.
To represent this seemingly random body of knowledge, a rogue gains inspiration points that he can spend to activate many of his abilities. At the beginning of each encounter, he gains a number of inspiration points determined by his level (see Table 1–1). The rogue adds 1/2 his intelligence modifier to the inspiration points indicated on the table.
Insightful Defense-As a swift action the rogue can spend 1 inspiration point to add their intelligence modifier as an insight bonus to armor class for 1 minute. This ability cannot be used if wearing any armor heavier than light, or if the rogue is carrying a medium or heavy load.
While Insightful Defense is active, the rogue may spend an inspiration point as an immediate action prior to making a saving throw roll to add their intelligence modifier to that saving throw.
Sneak Attack(Ex): As a swift action the rogue can spend 1 inspiration point to gain the Sneak Attack special ability. Once activated, Sneak Attack remains active for 1 round plus one round per 4 rogue levels (so 2 rounds at 4, 3 at 8, and so on). While Sneak Attack is active, the rogue deals extra damage against an opponent who is denied dexterity to AC or while the rogue flanks her target. This damage is 1d6 at first level, and increases by 1d6 every 2 rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
Ranged attacks count as sneak attacks if the target is within 30ft. A rogue can sneak attack only creatures with discernible anatomies— constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks.
Trapfinding(Ex): Rogues can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.
Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. Rogues can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.
A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.
Inspired Lore(Ex): A 2nd level rogue almost always knows something relevant to an unusual situation. As a free action the rogue can spend 1 inspiration point to use their rogue level in place of skill ranks for any knowledge check. As a part of using this ability, the rogue makes the knowledge check, and is treated as though they are trained in the skill for the results.
Rogue Talent: On attaining 2nd level, and at every three rogue levels thereafter (5th, 8th, 11th, etc), a rogue gains a special ability of her choice from among the rogue talent options listed below. A Rogue may opt to gain a bonus feat instead of a rogue talent. The rogue must qualify for any bonus feat chosen, and the feat chosen must be a Fighter bonus feat, an Ambush feat, or a feat that grants a bonus to 1 or more skills.
Deadly Accuracy(Ex): Starting at 3rd level, while your sneak attack ability is active you may add your dexterity modifier to hit and damage in place of strength. You gain this benefit even if the target does not take additional damage from your sneak attack dice.
Uncanny Dodge(Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.
Extra Skill Tricks(Ex): At 5th level the rogue learns one skill trick that he qualifies for. This skill trick does not cost skill points and does not count against his normal limits for skill tricks known. Every two levels thereafter (7th, 9th, etc) the rogue gains one additional skill trick known in this way.
Uncanny Strike(Ex): A 6th level rogue who successfully identifies a creature with a knowledge check is able to use their knowledge of that creature to increase the effectiveness of their Sneak Attack ability. If the creature is naturally immune to critical hits or sneak attack, the rogue deals 1/2 his normal sneak attack damage dice to the creature. If the creature is not immune, a successful sneak attack deals 1 additional point of damage per sneak attack die. If the creature has immunity to sneak attack by virtue of a spell or magic item, the rogue becomes aware of the effect but is unable to utilize sneak attack against them.
Evasion(Ex): At 7th level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Skill Specialization(Ex): At 8th level, choose 5 skills that you have at least 1 skill rank in. When making a skill check involving one of these skills, you can spend 1 inspiration point to gain a bonus on the check equal to your rogue level.
Versatile Strikes(Ex): Upon attaining 9th level, a rogue can use his sneak attack against opponents that under a wider variety of circumstances. If the target is affected by Sickened, Nauseated, Shaken, Frighten, Cowering, Dazed, or Prone, the Rogue may add their sneak attack damage dice as though they had lost their dexterity modifier to AC.
Improved Uncanny Dodge(Ex): A rogue of 10th level or higher can no longer be flanked.
This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.
If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
Lucky Recovery(Ex): An 11th level rogue can spend an inspiration point as an immediate action to reroll the result of a skill check.
Inspired Trickster(Ex): Starting at 12th level, the rogue gains the ability to use skill tricks more often. By spending an inpiration point as a free action, the rogue can regain the use of a skill trick that was already used this encounter.
Advantageous Avoidance(Ex): A 13th level rogue is extremely slippery and frequently manages to turn a sure hit into a narrow miss. As an immediate action the rogue can spend 2 inspiration points to force an opponent to reroll their attack roll. The rogue may choose to use this ability after knowing the result of the attack.
Cunning Surge(Ex): A 14th level rogue can in a flash of insight accomplish tasks faster than anybody would believe possible. By spending 3 inspiration points as a free action once per round, you can take an extra standard action during your turn.
Survivor's Luck(Ex): A 15th level rogue's survival instinct reaches nearly supernatural levels. As an immediate action the rogue can spend 2 inspiration points to reroll a failed saving throw. The rogue may choose to reroll the saving throw even after learning the result.
Improved Evasion(Ex): This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion. Rogues gain this ability at 16th level.
Fortuitous Strike(Ex): Turning a near miss into a powerful hit is second nature to the rogue. As a free action the rogue can spend 1 inspiration point to reroll a damage roll, or 2 inspiration points to reroll an attack roll. The rogue may choose to reroll the attack roll even after learning the result.
Brilliant Improviser(Ex): The rogue is a master of adapting to almost any situation. At the start of the day, choose your int mod in Feats, Skill Tricks, or (Ex) Class Features attainable at 15th level or below. By spending 4 points of inspiration as a free action, the rogue can gain access to one of the abilities so chosen. If the ability has variable effects dependent on level, treat the rogue's level as the relevant level for the ability.
For example a rogue with 18 int could pick Diamond Soul (Monk 13 ability), Never Outnumbered (Skill Trick), Elusive Target (feat), and Craven (feat). At any time during the day the rogue can spend 4 inspiration points to gain access to one of these 4 abilities for the next minute.
Better Lucky than Good(Ex): The greatest successes are always those won from the jaws of failure. The 19th level rogue knows this and exploits it. By spending 2 inspiration points as a free action, the rogue is able to treat a natural 1 that he rolled as a natural 20.
Inspired Celerity(Ex): A 20th level rogue can push himself beyond mortal limits when needed. By spending 5 inspiration points as a free action once per round, the rogue may take an extra full round action on his round (or a standard action plus a move action, or two move actions). You can not use Inspired Celerity and Cunning Surge in the same round.
Spoiler: Rogue Talents
Brutal Surprise-Reroll all 1s on sneak attack damage dice.
Cunning Breach-Spend 2 inspiration points to ignore DR for 1 round.
Crippling Strike-Requires Rogue 4. When you activate your sneak attack ability, you can spend 1 additional inspiration point to make your sneak attacks deal 1 point of strength damage per 4 rogue levels.
Defensive Roll-When an attack would reduce your HP to 0, spend 3 inspiration points as an immediate action to negate all damage dealt by that attack.
Disrupt Magic-Requires rogue level 8. As a standard action, you can spend 3 inspiration points to make an attack against one opponent within your melee reach. If you hit, you affect the target as though they were hit with a targeted Greater Dispel Magic, using your Rogue level as the caster level.
Distracting Attack-Spend an inspiration point as a free action after successfully sneak attacking a creature. The target is treated as flat footed until the start of their next turn.
Endless Options-Requires rogue level 12. As a free action once per round you can spend 2 inspiration points to gain an additional swift action.
Fast Getaway-As a swift action after making a successful sneak attack or sleight of hand check, you may use a withdrawal action. You can choose to spend 2 inspiration points to make a free hide check at the end of the movement granted by this ability.
Hide in Plain Sight-Requires Rogue level 12. Gain Hide in Plain Sight as the Ranger ability, but may be used in any terrain.
Instant Reposition-Requires rogue level 8. Spend 2 inspiration points as an immediate action to gain a move action that you may take immediately. This does not affect your place on the initiative order.
Opportunist-Spend 1 inspiration point to take an AoO against an enemy within your reach being attacked by an ally.
Practiced Sniper-When you attempt to use the sniping action under the Hide skill, you take only a -5 penalty to your hide check (down from -20).
Rogue Crawl-You can move at half your normal movement speed while prone.
Resiliency-Requires Defensive Roll. When you use Defensive roll, you may choose to spend an additional inspiration point to gain twice your rogue level in temporary hit points. These temporary hit points last for 1 minute.
Skill Mastery-Requires Skill Specialist class feature. Spend 1 inspiration point as free action to Take 10 on skills that you have skill mastery in.
Skill Specialist-Requires Skill Specialist class feature. You may choose an addional 5 skills to apply your Skill Specialist ability to.
Sniper's Shot-Allows sneak attack on ranged attacks out to the first range increment of the weapon, if greater than 30ft.
Stunning Expert-Requires Stunning Fist. Treat Rogue levels as Monk levels to determine how many uses per day of stunning fist you get.
Underhanded-Your sneak attack deals maximized damage during a surprise round.
Widen Reportoire-You gain an additional 2 skill points per rogue level. This applies retroactively.
Vital Strike-When making a standard action attack that deals sneak attack damage, maximize your sneak attack damage dice.
Font of Inspiration
Prerequisite: 15 int, must have an Inspiration Pool
Benefit: When you take this feat, your maximum inspiration increases by 3.
Spoiler: Note on Font of InspirationI never liked how Font of Inspiration worked. Under one reading it's ridiculous, and gets more ridiculous the more feats you manage to grab through weird methods like DCS and such. (If you manage to get yourself up to 15 feats, it can provide 120 total inspiration. Compared to your base pool of 10. That sort of thing is clearly not intended and pretty ridiculous). Under another reading (saying you just get 1 per feat), it's practically useless.
This modification makes it so you can only take the feat once. That one time is worth 3 points, which is a very noticable value, especially at low levels. To help make up for the loss from not being able to take tons of Font of Inspiration, the Inspiration class feature now grants 1/2 int mod in addition to the base pool. So a high level rogue should be looking at between 15 and 20 inspiration, depending on int mod and whether they take the above feat. I feel like that should be plenty.
Last edited by Seerow; 2015-03-25 at 12:18 PM.
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Re: The Rogue Revitalized
A rogue fix that doesn't give me some way of sneak attacking plants, undead, constructs, elementals, or people in shadows is missing a huge opportunity. At least make it a rogue talent if it's not baked into the class.All work I do is CC-BY-SA. Copy it wherever you want as long as you credit me.
- Join Date
- Apr 2005
Re: The Rogue RevitalizedUncanny Strike(Ex): A 9th level rogue who successfully identifies a creature with a knowledge check is able to use their knowledge of that creature to increase the effectiveness of their Sneak Attack ability. If the creature is naturally immune to critical hits or sneak attack, the rogue deals 1/2 his normal sneak attack damage dice to the creature. If the creature is not immune, a successful sneak attack deals 1 additional point of damage per sneak attack die. If the creature has immunity to sneak attack by virtue of a spell or magic item, the rogue becomes aware of the effect but is unable to utilize sneak attack against them.
I could add a rogue talent that requires uncanny strike bumping it up to full sneak attack damage, and one for attacking enemies with concealment. Both sound like good ideas.
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Re: The Rogue Revitalized
Missed that, my bad! I'm not really satisfied by it because you're making rogues spend skill points and take the class all the way to level 9 just to deal semi-appropriate damage to a third of the monster manual.All work I do is CC-BY-SA. Copy it wherever you want as long as you credit me.
- Join Date
- Apr 2005
Re: The Rogue RevitalizedInspired Lore(Ex): A 2nd level rogue almost always knows something relevant to an unusual situation. As a free action the rogue can spend 1 inspiration point to use their rogue level in place of skill ranks for any knowledge check. As a part of using this ability, the rogue makes the knowledge check, and is treated as though they are trained in the skill for the results.
And as for waiting until level 9, I figure that's around the point when it's going to start being a major issue against most things you fight. Get it too much earlier and you may as well just get rid of the immunities entirely straight from level 1. I really couldn't see bumping it back earlier than 6th level.
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Re: The Rogue Revitalized
Especially at level 9, I am already spending inspiration points left and right circumventing DR, setting up multi-round sneak attacks, activating buffs, and negating enemy damage. The last thing I am going to waste my IP on in combat is a skill check, especially with 8 or 10 + Int skill points to spend. The fact that most every rogue will have to burn skill ranks for knowledge(dungeoneering, arcana, religion, nature) is bad but not nearly as bad as using inspiration points to maybe use more inspiration points to maybe deal level-appropriate damage.
Level 9 is definitely too late for this particular feature to come online. The lack of sneak attack leads to 3 level 5 SGT fights that the rogue gets screwed against simply because of creature type. And that's not talking about other places he could get screwed because he can't set up SA, or there's concealment, or the creatures have easy escapes. Sneak attack is already harshly limiting, and rogues can be viable if they abuse range, blink spells, and wands of blahstrike. A fix should address those problems in some way before most players have dropped the class or the campaign.
If you're not comfortable with circumventing sneak attack immunities entirely (that's reasonable, neither am I) at least reduce the limitations. Let rogues sneak attack constructs / undead / plants but not oozes. Or let them circumvent crit immmunity. At least let them sneak attack while the enemy still has concealment.
Last edited by Just to Browse; 2015-03-21 at 05:49 PM.All work I do is CC-BY-SA. Copy it wherever you want as long as you credit me.
- Join Date
- Apr 2005
Re: The Rogue Revitalized
I went ahead and made some changes today.
I went ahead and removed Prolonged strikes, rolling the extended duration into the baseline sneak attack, and pushed up Uncanny Strike to level 6. I shifted some other abilities down, most notably Cunning Surge is down to level 14, which is closer to the same place the Factotum gets it. Replaced the level 20 ability with Inspired Celerity, which lets you gain a full round action for a bigger chunk of inspiration points. (Just occurred to me: Need to edit it to say you can't use Inspired Celerity and Cunning Surge in the same round).
As far as Sneak Attack goes, in addition to rolling in the baseline sneak attack duration, I removed the entire clause about needing to be able to see the target and reach their vitals. Yes a blind rogue can now sneak attack. It's not ideal but as you pointed out not being able to sneak attack someone in the dark is even sillier. Also removed the Undead immunity to sneak attacks, while leaving others present.
Uncanny Strike got moved up to level 6 as a part of Prolonged Strikes being removed, which puts it at a more reasonable level (and the earliest I would consider acceptable). And the choice is now between investing 3 skill points for the knowledges for the other immune creature types, or spending an inspiration point when you encounter one of them. I personally still feel the inspiration point expenditure is worthwhile, since it is 1 IP per fight, but if you feel otherwise a 3skill/level investment isn't going to break you or make you incapable of contributing in other areas.
Finally added a couple new rogue talents. First one that lets you apply a targetted dispel as a part of a standard action attack. This is intended to help mitigate things like Fortification armor, but obviously has much broader uses. The second boosts sneak attack damage if you make a standard action attack, so someone who doesn't want to rely as much on full attacking, and instead focus on mobility/sniping/whatever, can be a bit better off.
Which reminds me I should probably add another talent for reducing sniping penalties to hide. I think I will add that now.