Can't decide on a feat; build advice

[Tyrael]

Hi, all. I figured this would be the best place to go to for character build advice and things. My current character has just levelled up, and I'm trying to decide what feat to get. The following is the complete character, completely levelled up except for the feat to be decided upon.



Side note, I'm just jotting down various relevant bits of info. If there's some special template thing for posting character builds, please let me know.

Name: Boshi
Race: Lizardfolk
Class: Sorceror 1 / Monstrous Humanoid 2 / Fighter 2 / Brass Dragon Disciple 4
Alignment: True Neutral
Height: 7'4
Weight: 230 lbs

Stats:
STR: 28(+9)
DEX: 14(+2)
CON: 18(+4)
INT: 9(-1)
WIS: 17(+3)
CHA: 14(+2)

AC: 28
HP: 113
Fort: +11
Reflex: +6
Will: +9

Initiative: +2
Speed: 30

Full attack action: +15/+10
Full attack action(hammer): +17/+12

Class Skills:
Balance: +3
Bluff: +2
Climb: +9
Concentration: +4
Diplomacy: +2
Escape Artist: -1
Gather Information: +2
Intimidate: +7
Jump: +19
Knowledge(Arcana): +7
Listen: +5
Ride: 2
Search: -1
Spot: +5
Swim: +7

Feats:

Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Improved Sunder
Knockdown
Combat Brute

Weapons/Items:
Adamantine Sundering Longhammer +1: 1d12, 20/x3, Bludgeoning, 21 lbs. Can reach out to 10 lbs as per the Longaxe template. Sundering ability grants +4 to Sunder checks.

Knockback Ball and Chain +1: 4d6, 20/x3, Bludgeoning, 60 lbs. A massive, 60-lb iron ball attached to 20-ft chain. Whirled around the head as a full-round action, and then launched in a line effect. Targets that are hit must make a DC 19 Fort save or be knocked back 10 feet, in which case the ball continues in its path. If the target resists the knockback, the ball drops to the floor. Targets that step into a 5ft radius while it is whirling make a Reflex save or provoke an AoO.

Invulnerable Masterwork Mithril Spiked Full Plate Armor: Grants DR 5/magic

Boots of Striding/Springing
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Belt of Ogre Strength +2



So, what do you guys think? I once heard of some feat, like Flying Leap or Mantis Strike or something like that, where you charge and Jump, and then do zillions of damage.

[LotharBot]

You might be thinking of Leap Attack. Pretty good for the build you have there...

[Toliudar]

How'd you get Combat expertise with that intelligence?

Flying Kick is from Complete Warrior, and allows you to do an extra 1d12 with charge and an unarmed attack.

Shock trooper might be a natural for your build, and would require Improved Bull Rush

[Tyrael]

Wow, I just realized that about Combat Expertise. I've restructured the feat selection. Now it's:

Power Attack
Improved Sunder
Improved Bull Rush
Leap Attack
Shock Trooper

with 1 feat to spare.

Let me get this straight. Boshi is wielding a two-handed Greathammer, with a +14 STR damage bonus. If he charges an opponent, covering at least 10 feet, and Jumps in to threaten the opponent (Leap Attack), he gains x3 from the Power Attack. So if he takes a -5 from his PA, he gains +10 damage (since he's wielding a two-handed weapon). But Leap Attack triples that, so he gains +30 damage. Combine that with the Shock Trooper's Heedless Charge (PA sucks away AC instead of BAB) and he retains his original +17 attack.

So he charges in and deals a whopping 1d12+44 damage. In-sane.

And then, next round, the Momentum Swing from Combat Brute kicks in, which, if he takes -5 on his PA (this time sucking from his BAB), it AGAIN triples the damage, which does ANOTHER 1d12+44.

Is that right? Does all that stuff stack together? If so, that's absolutely nuts.


...and I still have 1 feat to select.

[Tor the Fallen]

You could take awesome blow [req 25 str, monster feat]. Knock back creatures as a std action. It's in the srd.

[Tyrael]

Yeah, but that requires size Large or larger. :(

[Tor the Fallen]

Yeah, but that requires size Large or larger. :(

Oh, shucks, I forgot about that.

Improved initiative and quick draw are always good. Frightful presence goes with the being a dragon disciple (do you get it as you advance?), but you need 9 ranks in intimidate.

[LotharBot]

Boshi is wielding a two-handed Greathammer, with a +14 STR damage bonus. If he charges an opponent, covering at least 10 feet, and Jumps in to threaten the opponent (Leap Attack), he gains x3 from the Power Attack. So if he takes a -5 from his PA, he gains +10 damage (since he's wielding a two-handed weapon). But Leap Attack triples that, so he gains +30 damage.

The way I read Leap Attack is that, with a -5 from PA and a one-handed weapon, you get +10, and with a two-handed weapon you get +15 damage. It's triple the -5 for a two-hander and double the -5 for a one-hander. I think that's what was intended (though I admit, the way it's written, you could take it either way.)

Combat Brute is more clearly written: if you take -5 with your PA, you get 7.5 damage one-handed ("a bonus equal to your attack roll penalty x1.5") or 15 damage two-handed ("a bonus equal to your attack roll penalty... x3"). They give the example of -6 giving either +9 or +18 in the feat description, so I'm sure I've read that one right.

So in both cases, power attacking for 5, you'd be doing d12+29, which is still a lot of damage.

[its_all_ogre]

leap attack double your bonus from power attack.
one handed it is 2:1
two handed it is 4:1
-2 = +8 damage with two handed.

[Nebo_]

Leap Attack has been errata'd. You now deal +100% Power attack damage, with both one and two handers.

[Tyrael]

So what exactly does that mean? A two-hander takes -5 PA to deal +10 damage. Is that +10 the thing that's affected by Leap Attack? Does that mean that it is now +20 with Leap Attack?

[Person_Man]

What do you want to accomplish with this build? Without knowing that, its hard to give advice.

But in general, instead of Sorcerer/Fighter, the best entry into Dragon Disciple is generally a full BAB class with arcane spells, such as Hexblade or Duskblade. There are also a variety of PrC that give spells and full BAB. And if you look at Races of the Dragon and the Draconomicon, there are a ton of dragon themed PrC that are much better then the Dragon Disciple as well.

Why Lizardfolk? There are a variety of dragon/lizard type races that are better, such as variant Kobold, Dragonborn, Poison Dusk Lizardfolk, and the Ambush Drake.

Knockback Ball and Chain? I've never seen that before, and you don't give a full description, so I'm not sure about the mechanics. The damage is way too high for a medium sized weapon, and the special ability is open to all sorts of abuse. Not sure how it can be whirling and thrown at the same time? How does that work? Do you have to whirl for 1 round and then throw it the next? What is it's reach, 20 feet? Can you just stand there whirling it? Regardless, if I had something like that, I'd play a Knight build, not a Dragon Disciple.

Feat suggestions: Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, Knock-Down (raise your Int or get Improved Trip from 2 levels of Wold Totem Barbarian).

On Leap Attack: We argue about the math on this all the time, because the errata is poorly worded. With a 2 handed weapon and Leap Attack, the damage bonus is either +3 or +4 per BAB sacrificed, depending on how your DM reads the errata. If you use Leap Attack, for gods sakes use Shock Trooper and a reach weapon at all times.

[Tyrael]

What do you want to accomplish with this build? Without knowing that, its hard to give advice.

But in general, instead of Sorcerer/Fighter, the best entry into Dragon Disciple is generally a full BAB class with arcane spells, such as Hexblade or Duskblade. There are also a variety of PrC that give spells and full BAB. And if you look at Races of the Dragon and the Draconomicon, there are a ton of dragon themed PrC that are much better then the Dragon Disciple as well.

Why Lizardfolk? There are a variety of dragon/lizard type races that are better, such as variant Kobold, Dragonborn, Poison Dusk Lizardfolk, and the Ambush Drake.

Knockback Ball and Chain? I've never seen that before, and you don't give a full description, so I'm not sure about the mechanics. The damage is way too high for a medium sized weapon, and the special ability is open to all sorts of abuse. Not sure how it can be whirling and thrown at the same time? How does that work? Do you have to whirl for 1 round and then throw it the next? What is it's reach, 20 feet? Can you just stand there whirling it? Regardless, if I had something like that, I'd play a Knight build, not a Dragon Disciple.

Feat suggestions: Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, Knock-Down (raise your Int or get Improved Trip from 2 levels of Wold Totem Barbarian).

On Leap Attack: We argue about the math on this all the time, because the errata is poorly worded. With a 2 handed weapon and Leap Attack, the damage bonus is either +3 or +4 per BAB sacrificed, depending on how your DM reads the errata. If you use Leap Attack, for gods sakes use Shock Trooper and a reach weapon at all times.

Re:Accomplishing, this character is basically a big brute who runs around whacking things for lots and lots of damage, especially breaking things. In-game, his goal is to resurrect the vanished Age of Dragons, which ties in to his Dragon Disciple-ness. In terms of actual combat mechanics, I'm aiming for him to be able to run up and just knock people silly. He's a hulking brute with a heavy draconic flavor, and behaves that way in combat. The DD's breath weapon is also fun for circumstantial Intimidate bonuses vs NPCs.

1.Re: Class selection, I went Sorcerer/Fighter mainly for RP value; the character's Brass Dragon sire dropped him off with a Sorcerer he knew with the intention of checking back in a decade or two to see how his kid was coming along, since his draconic heiritage would be wasted in a normal lizardfolk tribe. However, I COULD change the class, and simply have his IC casting ability come from the sorcerer, whereas mechanically, it would come from something completely different. So, that's open to change.

2. Re: Lizardfolk, mainly because I liked the image of a Russian-accented, vodka-swilling lizard with a giant hammer. My DM is vaguely ticked about the race, mainly because of the +5 naural armor bonus that he claims is cheap. He was mollified by the fact that I had to sacrifice two levels into Monstrous Humanoid, though. I'm currently trying to get my hands on Races of the Dragon to check out the Dragonborn.

3. Re: Ball and Chain, it's a custom weapon my DM and I grabbed from the new Zelda game. About your specific concerns, the way it works is that the wielder must use a full-round action to build its momentum. Then, the next round, he can choose to throw it as a standard action, subsequently retrieving it with a move action. After retrieving it, he must spend another full-round action to build its momentum. So, the biggest drawback to this weapon is that it only attacks once every other round. Or, if he likes, he can continue to whirl it, moving no farther than a 5-foot step.

Concerning Knight-ness, it also primarily came about as a need to get a ranged weapon that smashed things. The character is oriented around breaking and smashing things for lots of damage. The vast majority of the time, he'll stick with his "Boomstick" hammer and just whack people around. The Ball and Chain is mainly for the situations when an opponent can't quite be reached. Beyond 20 feet, however, there's not much he can do. I personally feel that it's a bit odd for a huge-STR hulking lizard to be plinking off shots with a bow, or even a Greatbow. He smashes stuff really hard, he doesn't shoot it. I suppose it's flavor though. If I was going for strict all-around optimization, I'd snag him a Composite Greatbow, I suppose.

Why exactly is it so crucial to use Shock Trooper and a reach weapon in conjunction with a reach weapon? I'm curious.

[Krellen]

People might say it's a wasted feat, but this build seems to scream "Cleave!" to me. The only reason it shouldn't be used is if you never encounter groups of enemies where your ridiculous 1d12+44 wouldn't drop someone and there's never another target within 10 feet.

[Enzario]

I don't seem to understand why people don't put Cleave (not greater, mind you) in every Power Attack build. An extra attack every time you kill something is always nice.

[Tellah]

I don't seem to understand why people don't put Cleave (not greater, mind you) in every Power Attack build. An extra attack every time you kill something is always nice.

Crowd-fighting feats are usually wasted in campaigns I DM because I don't particularly want to run big, crowded battles very often. Your mileage may vary considerably on this point, but I doubt I'm alone on this one.

D&D discourages the use of multiple weaker enemies in battle. Battles are generally a lot more fun for the whole group if there are only one or two monsters, because it feels more like everyone at the table gets one turn, rather than one per player and five for the DM. Furthermore, the EL system becomes rather laughable when you slavishly adhere to it for fights with eight or more creatures in them.

[Person_Man]

OK, to summarize:

1) You want a big dragon themed tank.

2) Your DM thinks Lizardfolk are unbalanced. This is silly, 90% of the races with LA and/or racial HD suck. But its common for DM's to look at some big modifier (Str, Con, natural AC, etc) and freak out.

3) Your custom ball and chain thing is phenomenally inefficient. Any time a melee build wastes a round doing something other than a full attack (True Strike, Disarm, Sunder, Overrun, etc) its usually just a better idea to make a full attack. There are certainly exceptions, but sacrificing multiple attacks to make one Knockback attack isn't one of them.

4) You need some effective ranged attack, but you don't like the idea of a big lizard guy with a bow.

5) You haven't used Shock Trooper before.


So, here's my advice:

1) Find a medium sized LA+0 race. I suggest Human, Orc, Gray Orc, Dragonborn, Ambush Drake, or Darfellan. If you're not Dragonborn, the dragon theme can come from your class choice instead of your race.

2) Make your build simple. A simple build seems less unbalancing then a complex build, even though Druid 20 is still one of the most powerful builds in the game. However, this will avoid any accusation of munchkin-ness from your DM, and you'll probably end up with a more powerful build anyway just by being intelligent about your choices.

3) Seriously, your variant ball and chain weapon sucks. Don't bother using it. If you want a Spiked Chain build with huge reach, I can suggest several.

4) If you're a Dragonborn, you can get wings. Flight negates most of the need for ranged attacks. If you have access to PHBII, Hurling Charge+Harpoon of Returning+Leap Attack is a good combo. Otherwise, buy a magic item that deals some sort of ranged attack and save it for the rare occasions when you can't hit stuff.

5) Shock Trooper has 3 maneuvers. One of them allows you to shift the Power Attack/Leap Attack penalty from BAB to AC when you charge and shift at least 5 points from BAB. Thus, you can deal a massive damage hit on your charge without decreasing the chances of you hitting, but your AC will suck. If you have a reach weapon, anyone who wants to counter attack you must move through your threatened area in order to do so, thus providing some level of defense. This combo works best when you have a very large reach and some other feat combo that prevents movement (usually Knock-Down, Standstill, or Evasive Reflexes).


OK now that is cleared up, what books is your DM comfortable with you using? Knowing this will make it much easier to suggest a class and feat combo.

[Krellen]

D&D discourages the use of multiple weaker enemies in battle. Battles are generally a lot more fun for the whole group if there are only one or two monsters, because it feels more like everyone at the table gets one turn, rather than one per player and five for the DM.

I've never experienced this. With most people I've DMed for, large groups of weaker enemies has been more fun, because they get more of a sense of accomplishment by downing a single foe (which is relatively easy) on their action, rather than lumping yet more damage upon a foe that's still far from defeat.

An easy way to avoid the "DM is always going" problem is to have all the enemies act on the same initiative.

[Person_Man]

I've never experienced this. With most people I've DMed for, large groups of weaker enemies has been more fun, because they get more of a sense of accomplishment by downing a single foe (which is relatively easy) on their action, rather than lumping yet more damage upon a foe that's still far from defeat.

An easy way to avoid the "DM is always going" problem is to have all the enemies act on the same initiative.

When I DM, I will occasionally have a mob of weak enemies. But most of the time I don't, because it makes a single round of combat last an hour. The players have fun when the PC's get to do things, not by watching me do things.

Also, Cleave is very circumstantial. It only produces an extra attack when you drop an enemy and you have another enemy within your reach. Compare this to Knock-Down, Snap-Kick, Hold the Line, Deformity (teeth), Deepspawn, Elusive Target, Combat Brute, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, etc. Any of these will grant additional attacks far more often.

[blacksabre]

If it hasn't been said.

IMPROVED INITIATIVE
Benefit: You get a +4 bonus on initiative checks.

You'll get more mileage out of that one feat then most others

[Person_Man]

If it hasn't been said.

IMPROVED INITIATIVE
Benefit: You get a +4 bonus on initiative checks.

You'll get more mileage out of that one feat then most others

No, you won't.

Improved Initiative adds a single, non-scaled, and not particularly huge bonus to Initiative. In the best case scenario, it allows you to act before an enemy and kill it, protecting you from one round of attacks from whatever enemy you were able to kill with your first attack (usually one or none). But then every other enemy gets to act in order, and combat usually continues for 1-8 rounds.

Also, its worth mentioning that many melee builds do far better when they lose initiative, because it gives them an opportunity to make a full attack on whoever just charged them. (But that's highly dependent on the build).

Compare that to a feat that adds an attack almost every round. Or a feat that gives a scaled bonus to damage. Or a feat that provides special abilities that can't be gained through magic items or class abilities.

Improved Initiative is nifty, but there are much better feats out there.

[Tyrael]

OK, to summarize:

1) You want a big dragon themed tank.

2) Your DM thinks Lizardfolk are unbalanced. This is silly, 90% of the races with LA and/or racial HD suck. But its common for DM's to look at some big modifier (Str, Con, natural AC, etc) and freak out.

3) Your custom ball and chain thing is phenomenally inefficient. Any time a melee build wastes a round doing something other than a full attack (True Strike, Disarm, Sunder, Overrun, etc) its usually just a better idea to make a full attack. There are certainly exceptions, but sacrificing multiple attacks to make one Knockback attack isn't one of them.

4) You need some effective ranged attack, but you don't like the idea of a big lizard guy with a bow.

5) You haven't used Shock Trooper before.


So, here's my advice:

1) Find a medium sized LA+0 race. I suggest Human, Orc, Gray Orc, Dragonborn, Ambush Drake, or Darfellan. If you're not Dragonborn, the dragon theme can come from your class choice instead of your race.

2) Make your build simple. A simple build seems less unbalancing then a complex build, even though Druid 20 is still one of the most powerful builds in the game. However, this will avoid any accusation of munchkin-ness from your DM, and you'll probably end up with a more powerful build anyway just by being intelligent about your choices.

3) Seriously, your variant ball and chain weapon sucks. Don't bother using it. If you want a Spiked Chain build with huge reach, I can suggest several.

4) If you're a Dragonborn, you can get wings. Flight negates most of the need for ranged attacks. If you have access to PHBII, Hurling Charge+Harpoon of Returning+Leap Attack is a good combo. Otherwise, buy a magic item that deals some sort of ranged attack and save it for the rare occasions when you can't hit stuff.

5) Shock Trooper has 3 maneuvers. One of them allows you to shift the Power Attack/Leap Attack penalty from BAB to AC when you charge and shift at least 5 points from BAB. Thus, you can deal a massive damage hit on your charge without decreasing the chances of you hitting, but your AC will suck. If you have a reach weapon, anyone who wants to counter attack you must move through your threatened area in order to do so, thus providing some level of defense. This combo works best when you have a very large reach and some other feat combo that prevents movement (usually Knock-Down, Standstill, or Evasive Reflexes).


OK now that is cleared up, what books is your DM comfortable with you using? Knowing this will make it much easier to suggest a class and feat combo.

1) It's a bit late in the game to change the race, especially as he's been interacting with other characters for a few levels.

2) A simple build, hm? What would you recommend?

3) Why exactly does it suck? It seems to be the ultimate defensive weapon, sort of a Whirling Tower of Kill. You just sit there and whirl all day, and people suddenly have a 9-foot-square radius they have to negotiate carefully around or else get knocked silly, as well as being hurled a good distance away. It's sort of an anti-melee thing, relying on high AC to foil ranged attacks.

4. Dragonborn is very, very nifty indeed. I'm trying to persuade my DM to allow my character to become one at some point, but it's a bit tough to swing, ICly. ICly, the character has only a dim idea that the dragon gods are even still around, and while he's wholeheartedly committed to resurrecting the dragons, if I'm reading Races of the Dragon correctly, you can't just stop in the middle of nowhere and holler "Hey, Bahamut! Hook me up, yo!" There's some special ceremony to uyndergo, and even learning how to do that ceremony in the first place might be tricky. In lieu of all that, I suppose a bow might be in order, though it doesn't make much character sense.

5. I concede the point with BAB, AB and AC. However, if you charge up and whack someone with a reach weapon, all they have to do is take a 5-foot step, no AoO, and just poke you. Then it becomes an endless dance of 5-foot-retreat, whack, 5-foot-advance, whack.



My DM's policy with books is fairly open-ended. There are no books be outright bans, and he's at least willing to consider obscure splatbooks. He mainly approaches it with "show me the thing you want, and I'll rule it case-by-case if it's something really outrageous."

[Person_Man]

1) It's a bit late in the game to change the race, especially as he's been interacting with other characters for a few levels.

Point conceded.

2) A simple build, hm? What would you recommend?

What are your base stats, without racial modifiers, and can they be switched around or are they locked in? Also, what level do you see this adventure going to?

I'll need to know that to give real advice, but just off the top of my head:

Offense: Barbarian 4/Fighter 6: Straightforward, lots of feats. With the right combo's, you should be able to deal huge damage.

Psychic Offense: Psychic Warrior 10: Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Karmic Strike, Combat Reflexes, Knock-Down, Improved Natural Attack, Expansion, Empathic Feedback, Claws of the Beast, Claws of the Vampire. Purposefully dump your AC with Shock Trooper. They hit you, they take damage, you hit them back twice, and heal yourself. Also known as the King of Smack.

Defense: Hexblade 4/Ranger 2/Blackguard X: Double Cha to saves. Mettle. Buy a Ring of Evasion. You'll pretty much be immune to magic. Use the PHBII Hexblade Dark Companion instead of a familiar. Buy the Spell Compendium. There are a ton of useful Blackguard spells in it that make them a very playable class. Also, this obviously requires high Cha.

Balance: Fallen Paladin 1/Blackguard 9: When you run out of Blackguard levels, head into Hexblade. Some of the 4th level Blackguard spells in the Spell Compendium are balanced for ECL 13, and this gets you them earlier. This also makes Command Undead somewhat viable as a class ability.

Tar Baby: Knight 10: This might be the one class that works with your homebrew ball and chain. Again, this requires high Cha.

Just plain cool: Warblade X: If your DM let's you use the Tome of Battle, this is probably your best bet. There are a ton of useful combos. But this requires high Int to be useful.

3) Why exactly does it suck?

At 11th level, you should make at least 3 attacks per round. With the right feats, that quickly becomes 4-6 attacks per round. Your ball and chain requires your enemies to attack you while you stand there, and then you hit them back 1-2 times. And it prevents you from using Leap Attack, the gold standard of melee killing. So the math is clearly against using your custom weapon. Also, I'm not sure if you'll be able to use it underground, when you're usually fighting in narrow corridors.

So assuming it has reach and can be used in narrow corridors, its a great weapon. Just don't use its special abilities. Attack. And get it enchanted with as many useful abilities as you can.

4. Dragonborn is very, very nifty indeed.

I couldn't agree more. And the fact that you can just become a Dragonborn fixes your racial problem. Use the wing options. The breath weapon might seem nifty, but it won't deal half as much damage as your melee attacks. With wings, you can get to anyone and make melee attacks, plus you can fly above the battlefield with a reach weapon, preventing anyone without reach or a ranged weapon from attacking you.

5. I concede the point with BAB, AB and AC. However, if you charge up and whack someone with a reach weapon, all they have to do is take a 5-foot step, no AoO, and just poke you. Then it becomes an endless dance of 5-foot-retreat, whack, 5-foot-advance, whack.

Well first off, if you're a Dragonborn with wings, using a reach weapon prevents most people from attacking you.

But even if you're not, remember that you're making a full BAB attack with +2 from charging and no to-hit penalties. With Leap Attack+Shock Trooper+Knockdown, you will almost always kill anything you charge. The reach weapon+Combat Reflexes is to keep people you don't kill on your charge away from you.

And even if you don't kill your target on your initial charge, Knock-Down will probably make them Prone. If they stand up, you get to hit them again, and that counts as their Move action (though sadly you can't Trip them again, as they count as Prone until their Move action is complete and your AoO comes before their Move action). If they want to, they can crawl up to you, but crawling counts as a Move action that also provokes an AoO. And remember, you keep your Leap Attack bonus for all attacks until the start of your next turn. But without the reach weapon, they can just attack you from the ground, without the need for any movement.

[its_all_ogre]

i disagree on cleave, with the build you're suggesting you should almost always kill on a charge, therefore cleave will enable you to kill two enemies on a charge, even easier if you have reach.

[Rigeld2]

i disagree on cleave, with the build you're suggesting you should almost always kill on a charge, therefore cleave will enable you to kill two enemies on a charge, even easier if you have reach.

If. Theyre. Close. Together. Which theres no guarantee they are. Heck, you can make an argument that Fireball is a good spell because it can hit and kill 44 creatures.

[Tyrael]

Point conceded.



What are your base stats, without racial modifiers, and can they be switched around or are they locked in? Also, what level do you see this adventure going to?

I'll need to know that to give real advice, but just off the top of my head:

Offense: Barbarian 4/Fighter 6: Straightforward, lots of feats. With the right combo's, you should be able to deal huge damage.

Psychic Offense: Psychic Warrior 10: Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Karmic Strike, Combat Reflexes, Knock-Down, Improved Natural Attack, Expansion, Empathic Feedback, Claws of the Beast, Claws of the Vampire. Purposefully dump your AC with Shock Trooper. They hit you, they take damage, you hit them back twice, and heal yourself. Also known as the King of Smack.

Defense: Hexblade 4/Ranger 2/Blackguard X: Double Cha to saves. Mettle. Buy a Ring of Evasion. You'll pretty much be immune to magic. Use the PHBII Hexblade Dark Companion instead of a familiar. Buy the Spell Compendium. There are a ton of useful Blackguard spells in it that make them a very playable class. Also, this obviously requires high Cha.

Balance: Fallen Paladin 1/Blackguard 9: When you run out of Blackguard levels, head into Hexblade. Some of the 4th level Blackguard spells in the Spell Compendium are balanced for ECL 13, and this gets you them earlier. This also makes Command Undead somewhat viable as a class ability.

Tar Baby: Knight 10: This might be the one class that works with your homebrew ball and chain. Again, this requires high Cha.

Just plain cool: Warblade X: If your DM let's you use the Tome of Battle, this is probably your best bet. There are a ton of useful combos. But this requires high Int to be useful.




At 11th level, you should make at least 3 attacks per round. With the right feats, that quickly becomes 4-6 attacks per round. Your ball and chain requires your enemies to attack you while you stand there, and then you hit them back 1-2 times. And it prevents you from using Leap Attack, the gold standard of melee killing. So the math is clearly against using your custom weapon. Also, I'm not sure if you'll be able to use it underground, when you're usually fighting in narrow corridors.

So assuming it has reach and can be used in narrow corridors, its a great weapon. Just don't use its special abilities. Attack. And get it enchanted with as many useful abilities as you can.



I couldn't agree more. And the fact that you can just become a Dragonborn fixes your racial problem. Use the wing options. The breath weapon might seem nifty, but it won't deal half as much damage as your melee attacks. With wings, you can get to anyone and make melee attacks, plus you can fly above the battlefield with a reach weapon, preventing anyone without reach or a ranged weapon from attacking you.



Well first off, if you're a Dragonborn with wings, using a reach weapon prevents most people from attacking you.

But even if you're not, remember that you're making a full BAB attack with +2 from charging and no to-hit penalties. With Leap Attack+Shock Trooper+Knockdown, you will almost always kill anything you charge. The reach weapon+Combat Reflexes is to keep people you don't kill on your charge away from you.

And even if you don't kill your target on your initial charge, Knock-Down will probably make them Prone. If they stand up, you get to hit them again, and that counts as their Move action (though sadly you can't Trip them again, as they count as Prone until their Move action is complete and your AoO comes before their Move action). If they want to, they can crawl up to you, but crawling counts as a Move action that also provokes an AoO. And remember, you keep your Leap Attack bonus for all attacks until the start of your next turn. But without the reach weapon, they can just attack you from the ground, without the need for any movement.

Stats are kind of locked in. Sans modifiers, it's
STR: 18
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 11
WIS: 17
CHA: 14

In terms of builds, Boshi is all about offense and whacking people for silly amounts of damage. He's the party's tank.

Re: Race, last night I persuaded my DM to accept an alternate, LA+0 Lizardfolk:
+2 STR, +2 CON, -2 INT
Medium size
30ft speed
+1 natural AC
Special: Hold Breath
Favored Class: Druid

Following some discussion with my DM and some swapping around of levels(now a Sorcerer1/Fighter6/Disciple3), I managed to snag Improved/Dragon Wings from Races of the Dragon. Zoom! Who says vodka doesn't give you wings?

Re: LeapAttackShockTrooper, 1d12+29(calculated earlier in the thread) is nothing to sneeze at, but it's hardly an instakill. Besides, Knockdown requires Combat Expertise, which requires 13 INT.

Re: Ball and chain, it really doesn't actually require, per se, the enemy to hit me. Once they step into 5-foot range, they get AoO clonked by it. Remember, it hits as a Touch attack, so it almost always clonks something. The 4d8+12 (unenchanted) damage is pretty beefy, and the Knockback property makes them have to close to range again to try to whack me. I'll try to get it enchanted with fire or sonic or something, but I'm not sure if that'll fly by the DM.




Edit: Looking again at the LeapAttackShockTrooper to confirm the math, Boshi's got a Greathammer that does 1d12 +14STR damage. His BAB is +7/+2. If he charges up Heedlessly, he can take -7 to his AC. That's +14 Power Attack damage, since it's a two-handed weapon. Then Leap Attack multiplies it by 100%, so that's +28. Add that to his 14 STR damage, and the total whack comes out to 1d12+42. Is that correct? Or not?

[Person_Man]

Stats are kind of locked in. Sans modifiers, it's
STR: 18
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 11
WIS: 17
CHA: 14

OK, with those stats, I suggest using a Psychic Warrior 10. That way you'll get the most out of your high Wis, and you can be a flying Dragonborn that claws people to death. If you're interested in that build, let me know.

But it sounds like you're doing something else, so I'll drop it.

In terms of builds, Boshi is all about offense and whacking people for silly amounts of damage. He's the party's tank.

Re: Race, last night I persuaded my DM to accept an alternate, LA+0 Lizardfolk:
+2 STR, +2 CON, -2 INT
Medium size
30ft speed
+1 natural AC
Special: Hold Breath
Favored Class: Druid

Following some discussion with my DM and some swapping around of levels(now a Sorcerer1/Fighter6/Disciple3), I managed to snag Improved/Dragon Wings from Races of the Dragon. Zoom! Who says vodka doesn't give you wings?

Well, kudos for successfully getting your DM to give you a superior race. +2 Str +2 Con -2 Int +1 AC for no LA with no racial HD and no real weaknesses? I don't know anything else that comes close to that.

Improved Dragon Wings only works if you have wings. Do you have wings?

Re: LeapAttackShockTrooper, 1d12+29(calculated earlier in the thread) is nothing to sneeze at, but it's hardly an instakill. Besides, Knockdown requires Combat Expertise, which requires 13 INT.

Actually, your damage should be weapon+magic+(1.5*Str)+(4*BAB). For a 10th level full BAB character it would be (2d4+7+40)+magic, or 52+magic. Enough for a Save vs. Massive Damage. If you get a Valouros weapon, it multiplies your charge damage *2. Or there are a variety of other options. And with Knock-Down, or Snap-Kick, or Whirling Frenzy Rage, or pounce, you get more attacks. So if you're not instant killing someone on a charge as a melee character, its because you've nerfed your own BAB and made poor build choices.

Also, Knock-Down does not require Combat Expertise, it requires Improved Trip. Most melee builds specifically make sure they have 13 Int so that they can get Improved Trip the traditional way. But you can also get Improved Trip for free regardless of your stats or pre-reqs by taking 2 levels of Wolf Totem Barbarian or 2 levels of Passive Way Monk or 6 levels of vanilla Monk.

If you don't have Knock-Down, you can use his little brother Stand Still (which has no pre-reqs) or his big brother Knockback (which gives you a free Bull Rush with each hit that doesn't require you to move, though its limited to Goliaths, Half-Giants, or those of large size.

But the basic point is pretty simple. If you're going to use Leap Attack, your To-Hit will suck unless you use Shock Trooper. If you use Shock Trooper, your AC will suck. If your AC sucks, you will die quickly when your enemies counter attack you. Thus you need a non-AC defense against melee attacks. You can either buy a Cloak of Displacement, Ring of Blinking, etc., or you can use a reach weapon with the right feats, which is generally preferred because it gives you the opportunity to kill more.

Re: Ball and chain, it really doesn't actually require, per se, the enemy to hit me. Once they step into 5-foot range, they get AoO clonked by it. Remember, it hits as a Touch attack, so it almost always clonks something. The 4d8+12 (unenchanted) damage is pretty beefy, and the Knockback property makes them have to close to range again to try to whack me. I'll try to get it enchanted with fire or sonic or something, but I'm not sure if that'll fly by the DM.

Touch attack? OK, at this point you're just making all sorts of rules up. So I won't even argue about the ball and chain any more.

[Tyrael]

OK, with those stats, I suggest using a Psychic Warrior 10. That way you'll get the most out of your high Wis, and you can be a flying Dragonborn that claws people to death. If you're interested in that build, let me know.

But it sounds like you're doing something else, so I'll drop it.



Well, kudos for successfully getting your DM to give you a superior race. +2 Str +2 Con -2 Int +1 AC for no LA with no racial HD and no real weaknesses? I don't know anything else that comes close to that.

Improved Dragon Wings only works if you have wings. Do you have wings?



Actually, your damage should be weapon+magic+(1.5*Str)+(4*BAB). For a 10th level full BAB character it would be (2d4+7+40)+magic, or 52+magic. Enough for a Save vs. Massive Damage. If you get a Valouros weapon, it multiplies your charge damage *2. Or there are a variety of other options. And with Knock-Down, or Snap-Kick, or Whirling Frenzy Rage, or pounce, you get more attacks. So if you're not instant killing someone on a charge as a melee character, its because you've nerfed your own BAB and made poor build choices.

Also, Knock-Down does not require Combat Expertise, it requires Improved Trip. Most melee builds specifically make sure they have 13 Int so that they can get Improved Trip the traditional way. But you can also get Improved Trip for free regardless of your stats or pre-reqs by taking 2 levels of Wolf Totem Barbarian or 2 levels of Passive Way Monk or 6 levels of vanilla Monk.

If you don't have Knock-Down, you can use his little brother Stand Still (which has no pre-reqs) or his big brother Knockback (which gives you a free Bull Rush with each hit that doesn't require you to move, though its limited to Goliaths, Half-Giants, or those of large size.

But the basic point is pretty simple. If you're going to use Leap Attack, your To-Hit will suck unless you use Shock Trooper. If you use Shock Trooper, your AC will suck. If your AC sucks, you will die quickly when your enemies counter attack you. Thus you need a non-AC defense against melee attacks. You can either buy a Cloak of Displacement, Ring of Blinking, etc., or you can use a reach weapon with the right feats, which is generally preferred because it gives you the opportunity to kill more.



Touch attack? OK, at this point you're just making all sorts of rules up. So I won't even argue about the ball and chain any more.

1. Re: Damage, I understand the weapon+magic+(1.5*STR), but where does the (4*BAB) come from? Also, that Valourous property sounds really, really, really cool. Where is it? I don't see it in the Magic Item Compendium...

2. Re: Wings, since he was ICly descended from a dragon (though his powers manifested a bit late), I convinced my DM to let me take the Dragon Wings at a later level than 1st, and then grabbed Improved Dragon Wings.

3. Re: Knockdown, isn't there a Knockdown weapon property somewhere? I saw the monstrous feat, but I'm not entirely sure I want to upgrade to a Large size to get it, mainly because of the ease with which he'd be flanked, as well as the AC penalty. Are there any creative ways to make use of Large size, tank-wise?

4. Re: Ball and Chain, I'll admit that it IS kind of making rules up, since it's a homebrewed weapon, after all. We thought that, realistically, if there's a 60-lb iron wrecking ball flying at you, you can certainly dodge it, but you can't just cushion it with armor. Touch attack negates armor, but still retains DEX bonus to AC, which is what is probably the most appropriate. Or is there some other, simpler way of resolving such a thing? Do you have any suggestions?

[Jasdoif]

4. Re: Ball and Chain, I'll admit that it IS kind of making rules up, since it's a homebrewed weapon, after all. We thought that, realistically, if there's a 60-lb iron wrecking ball flying at you, you can certainly dodge it, but you can't just cushion it with armor. Touch attack negates armor, but still retains DEX bonus to AC, which is what is probably the most appropriate. Or is there some other, simpler way of resolving such a thing? Do you have any suggestions?

Make it a regular attack roll.

If it's a touch attack, you're saying the weapon has the capability of phasing through armor (like a brilliant energy weapon), or delivers its damage by the slightest touch (like a spell). Neither of these fit for a mundane weapon, and make it quite powerful.

If your aim is off and the ball scrapes or dents off someone's full plate and rolls/swings off to their side, that's AC at work. "Cushion it with armor" is more in line with DR's effects then AC's.

[Person_Man]

1. Re: Damage, I understand the weapon+magic+(1.5*STR), but where does the (4*BAB) come from? Also, that Valourous property sounds really, really, really cool. Where is it? I don't see it in the Magic Item Compendium...

Leap Attack with a two handed weapon is either +3 or +4 per BAB sacraficed, depending upon how your DM reads the errata. A reach weapon gives you a range of 10 feet, and there are a wide variety of ways to extend it to 20+ feet. Thus, every round you should be able to charge, deal massive damage, and then charge again or make a full attack.

Valorous weapon is from Unapproachable East. Other ways to multiply your damage include the Spirited Charge feat, Headlong Rush feat, Battle Jump feat, or Rhino's Rush spell. And there are dozens of way to get full attack on a charge.

2. Re: Wings, since he was ICly descended from a dragon (though his powers manifested a bit late), I convinced my DM to let me take the Dragon Wings at a later level than 1st, and then grabbed Improved Dragon Wings.

OK, well its clear to me that your DM uses a heavy amount of house rules. So its hard for me to give you RAW advice, since you pretty much have to negotiate everything with your DM.

3. Re: Knockdown, isn't there a Knockdown weapon property somewhere? I saw the monstrous feat, but I'm not entirely sure I want to upgrade to a Large size to get it, mainly because of the ease with which he'd be flanked, as well as the AC penalty. Are there any creative ways to make use of Large size, tank-wise?

There's a weapon in Frostburn that grants Knock-Down on the first attack, and then it sticks in your enemy. You can also Wildshape into anything that has the quality, like a wolf.

But I think you mean Knockback, which is a free Bull Rush that pushes your enemy back with each hit. For that, you can either look at Races of Stone and be a Goliath, Half-Giant, or a large race. (Search for Flaming Homer under my posts and you'll find out how easily this can be abused). Or anyone can use Pushback from the Miniature's Handbook, but its a much much weaker version that requires you be adjacent to your foe and can only be used once per round.

4. Re: Ball and Chain, I'll admit that it IS kind of making rules up, since it's a homebrewed weapon, after all. We thought that, realistically, if there's a 60-lb iron wrecking ball flying at you, you can certainly dodge it, but you can't just cushion it with armor. Touch attack negates armor, but still retains DEX bonus to AC, which is what is probably the most appropriate. Or is there some other, simpler way of resolving such a thing? Do you have any suggestions?

It's not kind of making rules up. It's making rules up. And that's fine, since pretty much everyone makes rules up. But there are already existing rules out there that might do what you want to do. If you want a big ball and chain weapon, there's the Spiked Chain. If you want a large reach and touch attacks, there's the Pyrokineticist. Either is a simpler way of getting what you want.