ride-by attack

[Draak_Grafula]

SRD on the ride-by attack

Benefit
When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.

"continuing the straight line of a charge" per deffinition of charge would mean that you move through the square of your opponent. How do you guys implement this in your game. Does the charging character freely move through that square, do you let him ride past the opponent in such a charge or do you do you implement some sort of overrun action?

thanks for your time,

DG

[Bag_of_Holding]

I just take it as riding *past* the opponent.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

"continuing the straight line of a charge" per deffinition of charge would mean that you move through the square of your opponent.

No, you could be lined up so you can continue your (straight) movement after reaching the first square that allows you to conduct the attack.
In fact, if you cannot continue your movement (at least 5-feet after attacking) without entering the opponent's square you cannot use Ride-by Attack.

Example

                       T
HH___________________HH
HH                   HH

T: Target
H: Horse
__: Straight line

[Falrin]

So with the lance you can keep enough distance to ride-by- out of reach. This can be countered by a readied action, right?

So lets see some readied actions.

I hit him when he passes: Doesn't work, you can't reach him?

I step up to him and hit him when he passes: Does the mounted guy get an AoO?

I step into his line of movement: Would the ride-by fail, as he can't move in a straight line anymore? Does he get an AoO or can he stop his charge at 10ft distance to keep his reach? (depends on when you step in and hope he doesn't have overrun)

[Person_Man]

There's another alternative.

You make a lance attack.

Then your horse, which also get's to attack on a charge, makes an Overrun attempt.

Mounted Overrun (Trample) If you attempt an overrun while mounted, your mount makes the Strength check to determine the success or failure of the overrun attack (and applies its size modifier, rather than yours). If you have the Trample feat and attempt an overrun while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you, and if you knock your opponent prone with the overrun, your mount may make one hoof attack against your opponent.

Also keep in mind that a lance has reach, so you can also move past the enemy while keeping 5 feet between you if you like. So it doesn't matter whether or not your enemy has a readied action, unless they also have a reach weapon (preferably a polearm. This is why mounted combat can be so uber if you have the room to manuever. Your mount can usually move much faster then your enemy, and it can knock him Prone (or you could just ride past his reach). So you hit him, but he can't hit you without a reach or ranged weapon.

[Draak_Grafula]

No, you could be lined up so you can continue your (straight) movement after reaching the first square that allows you to conduct the attack.
In fact, if you cannot continue your movement (at least 5-feet after attacking) without entering the opponent's square you cannot use Ride-by Attack.

Example

                       T
HH___________________HH
HH                   HH

T: Target
H: Horse
__: Straight line

wauw
that means that the defender can easely position himself in such a manner that the attacking char can never make a ride-by attack (once the defender knows the attacker has this feat). Right?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Then your horse, which also get's to attack on a charge, makes an Overrun attempt.

Except, you cannot overrun on a charge, as it takes a standard action.


Here's what the FAQ says:

With the rules erratum that prohibits overruns as part of a charge, the Ride-By Attack feat is now nearly useless. You must use the charge action to use the Ride-By Attack feat, and that requires you to travel in a straight line toward your target. Using the example in the Player’s Handbook, this would appear to rather specifically mean along a line from your entire square (or squares if riding a horse or other mount with a space of 10 feet or greater), to the target square. Ride-By Attack allows you to continue moving along the straight line of the charge after your attack. This would have to mean that at some point you would enter the square (or squares) of the creature you attacked. (At least I cannot conceive of any other way it could be done). Since you cannot enter your foe’s space unless the creature is already dead, Ride-By Attack is now pretty much useless if you can’t also overrun the foe. Some have suggested that you could charge in a manner that would not bring you through the target creature’s square (or squares). To do so, you would not be charging directly toward the target and likely not moving by the shortest route (also a charge requirement) or attacking it from the first possible square (another charge requirement). In any of these cases, you would be breaking the rules for a charge. Am I wrong about any of this?

No, you’ve got it about right.

When using the Ride-By attack feat, you must conduct your charge so that you move in a straight line toward the closest square from which it is possible to attack your chosen foe, so long as it is a square that allows you to attack and then continue on in the straight line of the charge. You still must attack your foe the moment you reach that square. (Although the feat description doesn’t say so, you and your mount also must move at least 5 feet after you make your attack to get the benefit of the feat.) This is a special rule for charging when using the Ride-By Attack feat. Note that the Flyby Attack feat (discussed in the previous question) does not require you to move in a straight line. You merely make a single move and take another standard action at some point during that move.

In short: Yeah, Ride-by Attack is pretty much useless

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Then your horse, which also get's to attack on a charge, makes an Overrun attempt.

Overrun is a standard action so it cannot be used on a charge or in combination with Ride-by Attack.

[Person_Man]

Overrun is a standard action so it cannot be used on a charge or in combination with Ride-by Attack.

Well, you are clearly correct by RAW.

But that's also pretty retarded on the part of WotC. So you can either Trample your foe, or Charge them with Ride by Attack in some odd way, but not both? That really doesn't make any crunch sense, nor does it make any fluff sense, and its not how my group has been playing it for years.

Hopefully WotC will fix this at some point, or DM's will just take it into their own hands and make a house rule so that the mounted combat tree actually works together.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

That's what house rules are for
For good times
For bad times
And all the other times when RAW makes no sense.

[Olethros]

In this vein, how do people handle the placement of the horse if they use a battle grid? How many spaced does the horse take up, where in the "horse squares" is the rider?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

A large horse takes up 2x2 five foot squares (as seen in my example earlier).

The rider and the horse use the same squares so the rider is everywhere at once and can make attacks or be attacked in all squares occupied by the horse.

[Olethros]

So this is horrible rules mongering, and I would dissallow it as a DM, but.

"My horse makes an overrunn attempt as his action (or lets say trample), In that same turn on the same initiative I make a charge attack, seing as I am already moving in a strait line towards my opponent."

Huh, whatya think?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Moving in a straight line is not the same as charging, your mount also has to be charging.
(Again this is RAW)

[Draak_Grafula]

would it be a good house rule to let the charging mout go through the square of the opponent on a ride by attack, as during an overun attempt but always letting the opponent 'step asside' (even if the horse has improved overrun)?

Or would that break the game?

edit: the target probably shouldn't have a choice in whether he steps asside or not but just has to step asside when an attacker is using the ride by atack...

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I don't think that would break your game:-)

[Olethros]

I allways just ruled with "the magic of battlefield confusion." When the mounted lancer charges, he plows through the square of his opponent. Either "his attack hits, in which case the target is dramatically knocked down under the weight of the blow, rising again as the horse thunders past, powerless to stop it, but ready for more;" or "the attack misses, the target slipping sidways, glancing the lance of his shield, returning to place after the horse thunders ..." I have a genral problem with how occassionaly the battle grid can turn an exciting RP-Adventure into a tactical turn based stratege board game. I doubt very much that the original design intent was that a player could negate ryde-by-charges by standing "directly in from of" the armored man on the hourse. Corse I could be wrong.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I don't think that would break your game:-)

And, indeed, it would let you make an actual "Ride-By Attack", rather than a "Ride-by Drop". As such, the feat would actually be worthwhile.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Oh... I always assumed it was mounted Spring Attack and let it work the same way. Oh well.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

No, they work very differently. Ride-by Attack requires a charge and for all movement, even movement after the attack, to be in a straight line. Spring Attack cannot be used with a charge at all, and there are no restrictions on how to move (beyond needing to move at least 5 ft. before the feat activates).

[Matthew]

Indeed. Though, it might be reasonable to Houserule Ride By Attack and Fly By Attack so that they work more like Spring Attack (or, as I like to call it, Attack on the Run or Run by Attack).

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Certainly would be a better hold to naming conventions, though it is somewhat of a nerf for Flyby Attack. No more dragons strafing with their breath weapons.

[Matthew]

To be honest, I would happily make all four of those Feats work as: Move (some of your speed) - Standard Action - Move (remaining speed)

[Shhalahr Windrider]

What about the avoid attacks of opportunity properties of Spring Attack and Ride By Attack? That's the one strength they have over Flyby.

[Matthew]

Hmmn. Good point, but I think the prerequisites account for that particular difference. Even so, I don't really see the harm in having Fly By Attack and Shot on the Run not trigger Attacks of Opportunity by way of Movement (they would still trigger them by shooting from an adjacent square).

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Well, the one other thing is that Spring and Ride By Attack only prevent AoOs from the target of the actual attack, and expanding them to a standard action each could mess with that.

I suppose you could state that the AoO prevention clause only takes effect if the standard action you use is an attack action and it only works against the target of that attack (as normal).

[Matthew]

Yes, I suppose it would all come down to clear, simple and unambiguous wording. This whole collection of Feats get on my nerves anyway - there's no reason you should have to take three Feats to be able to move, attack and move - boggles the mind that 'hit and run' tactics need to be administered by Feats, three of which require two to four Feats as prerequisites...

[JoeFredBob]

Very very random question.

If you were to have an intelligent mount that had enough class levels to have acrobatic charge, could you then use ride-by attack without a straight line? (Common sense says yes, the parenthetical comment in ride-by attack says no, but I would personally call that a parenthetical comment that is ignoring random special cases.)

[Olethros]

So, I have allways thought a good way to adjuticate the whole "strait line charge thing" was to slightly alter how the battle grid is used.

1) figure out the distance to target using the grid as normal, to see if the charge is possible.
2) Ignore the squares on the grid for a second.
3) The 'charger' now designates a strait line of movment that takes him to a position where he can attack the target. This allows you to charge a point slightly to the side of an opponent, even if he is directly in front of you.
4) stop ignoring the grid and continue as usual.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

The straight line and squares are not the problem.
You must move to the closest square from where you can attack your opponent. Charging to the side of the opponent may violate that.

First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.