Help with Ur-Priest build

[Flawless]

I'm planning on playing an Ur-Priest in the near future and I was wondering what class(es) to take before UP.
In order to meet the prerequisites it has to have knowledge(religion) and (the planes), spellcraft and bluff as class skills as well as fort and will base saves of 3 by level 5.
Warlock4/Fighter1 seems a a nice enough entry route as does Binder4/Sorceror1. Duskblade4/sorceror1 would do the job as well, but the dusklblade's spell list is kind of crapy and fluff doesn't fit entirely either. The quicken spell once per day would be nice, though.
Oh, Hexblade4/cleric1 seems cool, too. Especially if I take the Dark Companion from PHII instead of the familiar.

Are there any other useful options? What's the most effictice one?

And what to do after UP? Hierophant comes to mind for both increasing CL and adding some nifty abilities. Anything else that's nice?

[daggaz]

Rogue1/Cleric4 will get you there as well..

[Douglas]

Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge X is good, but some may consider it cheesy.

[Ikkitosen]

That's a tasty BBEG build douglas. Mmmm mmmm.

[Rigeld2]

Rogue1/Cleric4 will get you there as well..

And nets you 4 useless levels once you enter Ur-Priest.

Bard 5 isnt a horrible entry. Bard 2/Hexblade 3 is better imo.

[JaronK]

Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 3 is a great entry, as it gives you caster levels as an Ur Priest, and gives -4 to the saves of anyone who gets to close to you with the Dark Companion Hexblade substitution. You will need one other class to get Knowledge: The Planes though. Human Paragon works for this.

Bone Knight is then a great 10 level class to take after your first level of Ur Priest if you go Paladin of Tyranny 4 instead.

JaronK

[Ramza00]

Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge X is good, but some may consider it cheesy.

Grumbles about how often people throw the word cheese around.

Ur Priest is very powerful, if build correctly it can be more powerful than a typical full caster builds. Ur Theurge can be more powerful than a typical wizard at certain levels.

Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10/X 2 is the typical Ur Theurge though some people end theurge at 8 and make X 4.

Lets look at the earlier build I gave and lets set the analysis at lvl 20.
Assuming Elite Score Array.

15+6(Item)+4(Level ups)+5(Inherent)=30
14+6(Item)+1(Level ups)+5(Inherent)=26

Both 18s at Start
18+6(Item)+5(Level ups)+5(Inherent)=34
18+6(Item)+4(Inherent)=28



Thus at lvl 20, a wizard 5/mindbender 1/ur priest 2/mystic theurge 10/X 2 has a few more high level spells compared to a normal wizard, and if you aren’t playing with completely broken dice rolls probably one less 9th level spell. This is powerful result, but definitely not “broken” though possibly “overpowered.” The dual mad casting really stinks, though being able to choose spells from both the wizard and cleric spell list rocks.

This is the costs (opportunity costs) for getting these stats. A wizard/ur priest/theurge will have to blow 2 feats which are of marginal benefit (iron will, and spell focus (evil) ) Additionally he loses 3 extra wizard bonus feats at lvls 10, 15, and 20. Thus a net loss of 5 feats, 5 feats which could have gone at raising dcs, metamagic (normal or sudden), crafting, etc. Another way of comparing this build is to consider what other prestige classes. What prestige classes did you give up to obtain this build.

Thus while a wizard/mindbender 1/ur priest 2/mystic Theurge 10/x 2 is very powerful I don’t know if I would call it overpowered or broken at 20. The real benefit of Ur Priest is getting those 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells early while only being 2 caster levels behind a typical wizard, this occurs at lvl 13.. You are two caster levels behind a typical wizard starting at level 7, and this will hurt from lvl 7 to about 10 maybe 11 for you may have divine spells but they are to low level to be benefical.

So in sum look at the third chart in my image. How powerful ur priest is based on how you built it, your rolls, and when you are playing.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=49
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28007

A wizard/urpriest/mystic theurge is comparable in power to a pure wizard. In the end the Ur Priest is slightly more powerful but not by much.

A wizard/urpriest/mystic theurge is less powerful than a wizard prc focus build. Incantatrix, Red Wizard, Innate of Sevenfold Veil, Anima Mage, Prestige Class X followed by Archmage or Fatespinner.

Grumbles about how often people say the word broken or the word cheese

[JaronK]

Heh, fair enough. Many people say "cheese" or "broken" when refering to builds they've never played and don't understand.

JaronK

[Arbitrarity]

True cheese is Ur-theurge with Sublime chord :{

[h2doh]

True cheese is Ur-theurge with Sublime chord Beholder Mage:{

fixed it for you

[Ramza00]

True cheese is Ur-theurge with Sublime chord :{

The Wizard Ur Priest is better.

True cheese is Ur-theurge with Sublime chord Beholder Mage:{

Though shall not speak of the horrors which is the beholder mage. Beholder Mage the beast who casts 10 arcane spells spontaneously (with no limit on spells known) as free actions per round.

And over 10 lvls you get 6 spells per each level, with the exception of 9th lvl spells which you get only 5 per day. This is before bonus spells due to a high int.

Luckily it is a npc only class, for beholders have no LA. (Yes in theory you can use PAO to become one, almost all DMs will say no to PAO cheese)

[h2doh]

The Wizard Ur Priest is better.


Though shall not speak of the horrors which is the beholder mage. Beholder Mage the beast who casts 10 arcane spells spontaneously (with no limit on spells known) as free actions per round.

And over 10 lvls you get 6 spells per each level, with the exception of 9th lvl spells which you get only 5 per day. This is before bonus spells due to a high int.

Luckily it is a npc only class, for beholders have no LA. (Yes in theory you can use PAO to become one, almost all DMs will say no to PAO cheese)

Well, he was talking about true cheese

[Ramza00]

Well, he was talking about true cheese

Beholder mage is on the level of Planar Shepard, Illithid Savant, and Dwomerkeeper. Beholder Mage should be a character that destroys the world and rebuilds it type thing, the world is never the same again.

[h2doh]

Beholder mage is on the level of Planar Shepard, Illithid Savant, and Dwomerkeeper. Beholder Mage should be a character that destroys the world and rebuilds it type thing, the world is never the same again.

As I am well aware, however I was saying it as a joke anyway.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Trust me, Illithid Savant can get bad, especially the first time you meet an abomination ('yoink! I now have divine ranks!').

On topic: Ur-Priest prepares spells, right? I'd recommend alternative source spell for some wizardy stuff, without resorting to all of that Mystic Theurge. Replace it with some totally awesome prestige classes that advance Div. CL.